Pilot Archive
Thread: JTL Ship Balance Discussion
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:15 am
#131
Alarien wrote:
As you state before, ANY ship can kill anything in the hands of a competent pilot. That's never been a discussion. I can take down the ISD and gunboats in an A-Wing without issue. I do it a lot faster in a Heavy X. I do it faster in a Heavy X then I do in a Belbullab. As I said and as you ignored, the Heavy X is *better* than the JSF as a cap killer. It DOES have more firepower, does it not? It CAN take a lot more armor/shields, can it not? That's sorta the defining trait.
"Wrong - it cant actually take more shields than I have in mine at the moment. And having more firepower is NOT the defing point as every good pilot knows"
This is absolutely nonsense. Half as maneuverable nothing. A JSF running an RE'd Nym's has lower PYR stats than an Xrunning an RE'd tier 10 engine. This is brought up a bit by the JSF's turning stats, but when it gets into a turning battle, the edge is very small to the JSF. Its small hitbox is where it gets its advantage. However, outturning a JSF is not what the X is about. It can turn damn near as well with the right set up, its faster, and it can take and dish out more punishment. If you think the Heavy X is 50% the PVP operational capability of a JSF, you are wrong, by a very fair margin.
Wrong - A lot of people have the same misconceptions as you im afraid, the engine does NOT determine MANOVERABILITY it determines TURN RATE. If you fly in circles round and round then thats good for you, but most people, especially in PvP will move around in lots of different directions dodging fire. This is MANOUVERABILITY (how fast you can alter direction) and it is determined by chassis stats.
Tenfold? You are 10x better in a JSF than say a TIE Adv or an A-Wing? I highly doubt that. You've never even been hit in PVE? Versus what? I find it highly unlikely that you dive into 12 or more TIE fighters as I do regularly and NONE of them ever land a hit. I don't care how good you are. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. Maybe I would buy that you don't get hit vs gunboats or vettes or ISDs, but against a solid wall of fighters, you're exaggerating for effect.
Yes I am a lot better in my JSF, I just helped a guildie kill the corvette in my stock (non-heavy) Xwing there. I took 3-4 hits from the corv and gunboats and none from the fighters bar the Aggs (another 3-4 hits). In the JSF I wouldnt have got hit ONCE! See above where I explain MANOUVERABILITY to you? Perhaps you should try juking a bit more rather than predictable curves or straight line flight? Thats how I dont get hit!
You're exaggerating again. Mass is a huge part of it. It outperforms in maneuverability/flying performance as an interceptor should. That does not completely trump firepower and resilience.
Actually the JSF is HIGH in mass too. And that is the point, it is the best ship in most areas and one of the best in the others. And if an Interceptor outperforms in manouverability/flying performance shouldnt the Awing/TIE Int out[perform the JSF.
Of course it makes sense. How many enemies have you fought at once? 16 so far is my current record, 2 flights; 1 of TIE Interceptors and 1 of gunboat escorts (Ints, Opps and Bombers) in one fight. It should only take so much to kill an equal level ship, and lets not forget TIER 5 are EQUAL LEVEL to Aces. EQUAL. Not higher. Not harder. Same. Same as a Tier 1 when you were Tier 1. That defines how hard the fight should be, which is equivalent to any other Tier. Intensity is flying into the middle of a swarm and clearing them out whild dodging countless incoming shots.
How many enemies have I fought at once, in PvP the most was 7 to 1 in PvE ive been agroed by 20-30 TIEs and other ships at once.
Intensity is not getting behind a target that will NEVER evade you, and plugging away at its shields for 20 seconds before you finally get through, rarely missing a shot. That's boring, and its not very "space sim"ish. If this was Battletech and we were fighting mechs, ok that's great. This is starfighters however.
Making it easier to kill Tier5s does not ramp up the intensity of combat - it lowers it.
Relative to what? Its slower than you would do it vs a Tier 4 in your Tier 4 ship with your Tier 4 gear (at best... which is what you are flying in an A-Wing more than likely). The A-Wing was balanced for Tier 4 fighting, it is slower and more dull at Tier 5. There is no question that it is "easy" so stop trying to make me feel like you are a better pilot for it. I'm sure we could go ship for ship at killing in an A-Wing. The question is "is this fun?" and my answer to that, when flying in Kessel or Deep Space in an A-Wing, plugging away with my 1 tier 7/8 gun is... no. The regular X-Wing is FAR more balanced in regards to Tier 5 flying than the A-Wing is.
The Awing was not balanced for TIER 4 flying, it was balanced as a light fighter within the confines of the JTL balancing system.
Yeah, neither am I, so leave the backhanded implications at home. I don't want the game easy, I want it HARDER. I don't think harder comes from giving the enemy 4x its normal shields and making it fly a bit faster. That's exactly what you are advocating, the current imbalance from Tier 4 to Tier 5 PVE content. Its a noteworthy increase in how long it takes to bring the same ships down with nothing given to the Ace pilot over the Tier 4 pilot to bridge the gap. The ROTW ships do that.
Backhanded implication? Im sorry you see it as such, it was a statement of fact and if you are unable to recognise it as such and worry that i am making dispersions upon your character then that is your problem. Believe me if I think you are an idiot Ill come right out and say it! The ROTW ships do NOTHING but make it EASIER to kill stuff as they are all vastly OVERPOWERED. Making nonSW crafted quest ships that outperform ALL other ships will NOT help the space game, especially when it becomes more boring more quickly.
Harder content doesn't mean making it more tedious. It means increasing the spawn numbers, making the missions more intricate and difficult. Making the capital ships tougher. What you are advocating is the "easy" way out for SOE, by increasing NPC ship stats. That's makes the flying more dull and pointless.
I NEVER said just increase ship stats EVER! All i said was that making the space game easier does not make it more fun, intense, or exciting like you seem to think it will. What you are advocating is giving us equipment that makes it easier for player pilots to kill lots of ships. Well thats fun for farming but not gaming!
First see bits in RED.
Then -
FYI - in my Awing I can kill a tier 5 fighter in 5-6 secs and 3-4 secs in my Xwing. Why dont you just take the right ship up for the job you are going to do? Rather than having SOE make ships for you that excel at all jobs. I guarantee you when you take up your stock Xwing into DS and get jumped by a couple of player Interceptors and beat them - thats intense and fun. Taking a ship that can handle anything you find without testing your skills is boring.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 09:25 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 09:26 AM
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:22 am
#132
RedOnedi wrote:
In this thread, I have seen a some good discussion, but it really just centers around different points of view on the exact same point. I have not seen anything *concrete* posted, so I am going to take a stab at it. Someone else in some other thread mentioned perhaps having chassis modifiers for different parts, and I like this idea for balancing purposes.
Umm, I have an easier way of balancing ship stats across the board!
Apply the JTL balance system to the ROTW ships. That way you only change the new ships and not EVERY ship in the game. The original ships are balanced pretty well, you CAN take a starter ship into DS with the right components if you want and have some fun! You can attack the ISD in a light fighter, you can dogfight in a bomber, but EVERY ship is slightly different in its strengths and weaknesses making picking your ship for that mission a tactical decision.
The only ships that should have a slight superiority over the original ships are the RG Int and the HeavyX. These ships should only have a mass increase of 25% and have other stats the same as their forebears.
This would eradicate this 2 games in one syndrome that exists currently, and is the quickest and easiest way to do it.
Job done.
Alarien
Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:51 am
#133
"Wrong - it cant actually take more shields than I have in mine at the moment. And having more firepower is NOT the defing point as every good pilot knows"
Man you like to quibble. Yes, we all have 2555 f/b RE'd shields. Yeah yeah, armor adds in on top of that. No matter how you try to twist the argument, the Heavy X is capable of more resilience than the JSF. More firepower is not a defining point, it is part of it. The B-Wing is certainly not a superiority fighter and I never said it was.
"
Wrong - A lot of people have the same misconceptions as you im afraid, the engine does NOT determine MANOVERABILITY it determines TURN RATE. If you fly in circles round and round then thats good for you, but most people, especially in PvP will move around in lots of different directions dodging fire. This is MANOUVERABILITY (how fast you can alter direction) and it is determined by chassis stats."
Actually, you are both correct and wrong at the same time. You are correct that chassis stats adjust the maneuverability. You are wrong in trying to move PYR on an engine out of that discussion for the purposes of your argument. You know full well that a PYR 60 JSF will be out turned (and likely outrun) by a PYR 80 Heavy X. There is no misconception, you are trying to twist the facts to be right.
" In the JSF I wouldnt have got hit ONCE! See above where I explain MANOUVERABILITY to you? Perhaps you should try juking a bit more rather than predictable curves or straight line flight? Thats how I dont get hit!"
I know how to juke and jink. I know how to avoid fire. You however, just made your argument worthless. "In the JSF I woudn't have got hit once!" is an assumption. I would like to watch you take out the Kessel vette without ever taking a single lucky blaster bolt to any part of your shields, ever. I'm sure some people can do it. I'm sure I could do it every once in a while. But you are going completely on assumption of what you could and could not do where you have obviously from your statement never even tried it. That's meaningless.
"Actually the JSF is HIGH in mass too. And that is the point, it is the best ship in most areas and one of the best in the others. And if an Interceptor outperforms in manouverability/flying performance shouldnt the Awing/TIE Int out[perform the JSF."
The JSF is half the mass of the Heavy X. Do we need to go back inot this again? And yes, it is one of if not the best ship in a lot of areas. What's your point? There will always be something that is "best." And I agree that the A-Wing and the TIE shouldn't be getting outperformed. Let me stress why: In my opinion, the TIE Int and A-Wing were ineptly developed and severely underpowered, mostly due to an attempt to balance them against the Ace grind.
"How many enemies have I fought at once, in PvP the most was 7 to 1 in PvE ive been agroed by 20-30 TIEs and other ships at once."
You really make me question your comments here. 7 to 1, I would believe, and you don't state you won. If you came in and said "I beat 7 to 1" then I'd question where, who, what they were flying, and how good they were. If you said "I killed 3 of them before the other got me" then I'd be mildly impressed, assuming they were total idiot pilots. As for 20-30?I believe 20 is possible. When 3 fighters groups overlap in DS, it COULD happen, but its extremely rare. 30? No way. Never seen it in any zone in this game where 30 NPC enemy potential ships happen to be in the same area. By the way, did you win against your 20-30? Did you "not take a hit" as you claim before?
"The Awing was not balanced for TIER 4 flying, it was balanced as a light fighter within the confines of the JTL balancing system."
Which was balanced for the Ace grind. Which was balanced against Tier 4 enemies, when the ship is available. Whose weight is balanced so that only 1 or 2 components of lvl 8 would be capable, everything else below that. Whose stats are balanced but NEVER will be improved upon by a master pilot through reaching master status. No, the A-Wing is not balanced against Tier 5 in my opinion.
"Making it easier to kill Tier5s does not ramp up the intensity of combat - it lowers it."
Dude, for one second stop. Listen to what I'm saying. Then read it again. Then absorb it. PLEASE, for all that's holy. If I give you a game where you stay in one place and shoot an unmissable target 10 times to "win." And then I give you the upgraded version of the game where you have to shoot it 20 times to "win".... which one was "harder?"
The answer is neither. They are equally EASY. Once just takes longer. Which one is more tedious though? That's the difference between Tier 4 and 5. Its not "hard" its about "takes longer" and is "boring."
You have seriously got to get over this obnoxious assumption that I want the game to be easier. I want it to be more challenging. You are supporting an older version of the game where they made things challenging by increasing enemy ship stats. "I NEVER said just increase ship stats EVER!" No, you didn't, you said that Tier 5 should be harder, but forgot to point out that the only thing harder is the amount of damage thier shields absorb.
"FYI - in my Awing I can kill a tier 5 fighter in 5-6 secs and 3-4 secs in my Xwing. "
Umm, yeah so can I. Big deal. 6 seconds is a long time to be plugging direct shots into a starfighter and have it not blow up.
"Taking a ship that can handle anything you find without testing your skills is boring."
You're absolutely right, which is why they need to make more challenging content. As for a ship that can handle anything without testing your skills: I submit the A-Wing. Never tests my skills. Boring as all heck though in its current form. Now, as for the Bel/JSF/Heavy X, those are significantly more fun to fly.
" I guarantee you when you take up your stock Xwing into DS and get jumped by a couple of player Interceptors and beat them - thats intense and fun. "
Yes, been there too. I got more of a rush out of taking out 2 JSFs with my Heavy X.
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:53 am
#134
OKAY this is the last time i do this -
Firstly why are you comparing the heavy Xwing to the JSF? Thats not what this thread is about.
Alarien wrote:
"Wrong - it cant actually take more shields than I have in mine at the moment. And having more firepower is NOT the defing point as every good pilot knows"
Man you like to quibble. Yes, we all have 2555 f/b RE'd shields. Yeah yeah, armor adds in on top of that. No matter how you try to twist the argument, the Heavy X is capable of more resilience than the JSF. More firepower is not a defining point, it is part of it. The B-Wing is certainly not a superiority fighter and I never said it was.
Actually we dont ALL have 2555f/b REd shields, I dont!
"
Wrong - A lot of people have the same misconceptions as you im afraid, the engine does NOT determine MANOVERABILITY it determines TURN RATE. If you fly in circles round and round then thats good for you, but most people, especially in PvP will move around in lots of different directions dodging fire. This is MANOUVERABILITY (how fast you can alter direction) and it is determined by chassis stats."
Actually, you are both correct and wrong at the same time. You are correct that chassis stats adjust the maneuverability. You are wrong in trying to move PYR on an engine out of that discussion for the purposes of your argument. You know full well that a PYR 60 JSF will be out turned (and likely outrun) by a PYR 80 Heavy X. There is no misconception, you are trying to twist the facts to be right.
I understand it is very difficult for lots of people to comprehend this but PYR on an engine does NOT have anything to do with MANOUVERABILITY it is TURN RATE. Once again, the PYR of an engine determines how fast you turn. NOT how fast you reach your maximum turn rate. I will try to amke you understand this. Your ships MANOUVERABILITY is determined by the CHASSIS, ie the chassis PYR and its speed mod. This determines how quickly you change directions (MANOUVERABILITY). How quickly you can fly around in a circle is not as important as MANOUVERABILITY which is how quickly you can go from pointing one direction to another.
" In the JSF I wouldnt have got hit ONCE! See above where I explain MANOUVERABILITY to you? Perhaps you should try juking a bit more rather than predictable curves or straight line flight? Thats how I dont get hit!"
I know how to juke and jink. I know how to avoid fire. You however, just made your argument worthless. "In the JSF I woudn't have got hit once!" is an assumption. I would like to watch you take out the Kessel vette without ever taking a single lucky blaster bolt to any part of your shields, ever. I'm sure some people can do it. I'm sure I could do it every once in a while. But you are going completely on assumption of what you could and could not do where you have obviously from your statement never even tried it. That's meaningless.
You obviously dont know how to juke, you posted earlier you take hits all the time. "In the JSF I wouldnt have got hit once!" is not an assumption it is demonstrable fact. Creat a toon on Chimaera ill be glad to demonstrate it to you. Since I got my JSF i have done 15 odd corv runs and on 10 of them I didnt even take a shield hit. There is a set of instructions you can read on how to kill the corvette up in the pilot FAQ, I suggest you read it, its very helpful.
"Actually the JSF is HIGH in mass too. And that is the point, it is the best ship in most areas and one of the best in the others. And if an Interceptor outperforms in manouverability/flying performance shouldnt the Awing/TIE Int out[perform the JSF."
The JSF is half the mass of the Heavy X. Do we need to go back inot this again? And yes, it is one of if not the best ship in a lot of areas. What's your point? There will always be something that is "best." And I agree that the A-Wing and the TIE shouldn't be getting outperformed. Let me stress why: In my opinion, the TIE Int and A-Wing were ineptly developed and severely underpowered, mostly due to an attempt to balance them against the Ace grind.
I think I understand your problem now, you think erroneously that there should be a BETTER ship than others. No, Im afraid your wrong, the shipos should be DIFFERENT, with some more effective in some areas but with a complimentary deficiency to BALANCE out that effectiveness. Something the JSF/BSF do not have. The Awing and TIE Interceptor are not underpowered. They are highly MANOUVERABLE (see above for explanation) craft and as such are balanced by their low mass and firepower. Once again, there is a bit in the Pilot FAQ stickied to the top of the forum that may help you in learning about the different ships and their stats. I found the A-wing hard to adapt to at first and I practiced in it until I was very good in it. It is a different ship to the Xwing and therefore requires different piloting technique. Finally here, you have been misinformed, when you reach the Ace box in your pilot profession you will see that there is no ace "grind" but just 2 missions to master. I am surprised you do not know this as you talk with such authority about the corvette run.
"How many enemies have I fought at once, in PvP the most was 7 to 1 in PvE ive been agroed by 20-30 TIEs and other ships at once."
You really make me question your comments here. 7 to 1, I would believe, and you don't state you won. If you came in and said "I beat 7 to 1" then I'd question where, who, what they were flying, and how good they were. If you said "I killed 3 of them before the other got me" then I'd be mildly impressed, assuming they were total idiot pilots. As for 20-30?I believe 20 is possible. When 3 fighters groups overlap in DS, it COULD happen, but its extremely rare. 30? No way. Never seen it in any zone in this game where 30 NPC enemy potential ships happen to be in the same area. By the way, did you win against your 20-30? Did you "not take a hit" as you claim before?
I beat 8 to 1 actually. I hyped into DS in a heavily damaged Xwing (70% engine and weapon damage plus a disabled DI). When I appeared I saw an enemy and fired destroying him in his Interceptor. I dont count that a kill as it was reflex. Anyway, i then took out another Int,3 Opps an Advanced and 2 Firesprays in about 60 secs. I took out the Ints first then the Adv,then the Opps, then the Firesprays (order of danger) as they attacked Freedom Station. Only the 3 Firesprays and the last Opp saw me coming and Firesprays are useless so once the Opp was down I was free and clear.
For PvE I have been fighting a end of duty destroy mission and walked over a heavy static spawn of enemies. Plus in DS its easy to agro 20 TIEsplus assorted Gunboats and Decimators and the ISD at once. And no I wouldnt expect to take a hit, except a lucky blow from the ISD as I ignore that. It seems to me that you must get targeted fixated and thats why you take so many hints. Once again I direct you to the guides and FAQ stickied to the top of the forum.
"The Awing was not balanced for TIER 4 flying, it was balanced as a light fighter within the confines of the JTL balancing system."
Which was balanced for the Ace grind. Which was balanced against Tier 4 enemies, when the ship is available. Whose weight is balanced so that only 1 or 2 components of lvl 8 would be capable, everything else below that. Whose stats are balanced but NEVER will be improved upon by a master pilot through reaching master status. No, the A-Wing is not balanced against Tier 5 in my opinion.
Why would the Awing be balanced against a TIER4 NPC, or any other NPC for that matter?You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the box you get certd for a ship denotes that ships tier. WRONG! Your pilot skills denote the TIER of YOUR ship. Once again I direct you to the FAQ sticky. Here you can see that JTL ships are balanced within 3 possibly 4 areas. If you look at the Awing you see it has v good manouverability, OK mass, crappy firepower and a small hitbox. Now take the TIE Interceptor. It has better firepower and manouverability than the Awing though it has less mass and a bigger hitbox as a trade-off. There is the balance system! The fact that YOU personally find it difficult to fly an Awing against TIER 5s does not make the Awing crappy. It just means that your Awing piloting skills are not up to the task. You can either practice until you get better or give it up and go get a JSF (the playstation cheat code route) or stick to an Xwing. Using your statement here you would expect a stock (NOT HEAVY) z-95 headhunter to be useless after TIER1 is complete. Wrong. I used mine up until I got pilot 3333. And finally, once again I point out that there is no "grind" to getting your Ace box just missions!
"Making it easier to kill Tier5s does not ramp up the intensity of combat - it lowers it."
Dude, for one second stop. Listen to what I'm saying. Then read it again. Then absorb it. PLEASE, for all that's holy. If I give you a game where you stay in one place and shoot an unmissable target 10 times to "win." And then I give you the upgraded version of the game where you have to shoot it 20 times to "win".... which one was "harder?"
The answer is neither. They are equally EASY. Once just takes longer. Which one is more tedious though? That's the difference between Tier 4 and 5. Its not "hard" its about "takes longer" and is "boring."
Your post stated that the new ships are more fun, you also stated taking a long time to kill things wasnt fun, you also stated that you had trouble killing things quickly in an Awing. Your idea to make space better was to give us BETTER ships making the JTL ships even more obsolete. What do you want included now, a BSG Viper? Once you make Ace the endgame is not farming as you seem to propose, it is PvP. What you suggest is to make PvE even easier than it is now and PvP into Johnny compo in space.
You have seriously got to get over this obnoxious assumption that I want the game to be easier. I want it to be more challenging. You are supporting an older version of the game where they made things challenging by increasing enemy ship stats. "I NEVER said just increase ship stats EVER!" No, you didn't, you said that Tier 5 should be harder, but forgot to point out that the only thing harder is the amount of damage thier shields absorb.
Nope I didnt say TIER 5s should be harder, I just said they were easy. I have some ideas on better JTL space combat, maybe ill post them sometime soon.
"FYI - in my Awing I can kill a tier 5 fighter in 5-6 secs and 3-4 secs in my Xwing. "
Umm, yeah so can I. Big deal. 6 seconds is a long time to be plugging direct shots into a starfighter and have it not blow up.
"Taking a ship that can handle anything you find without testing your skills is boring."
You're absolutely right, which is why they need to make more challenging content. As for a ship that can handle anything without testing your skills: I submit the A-Wing. Never tests my skills. Boring as all heck though in its current form. Now, as for the Bel/JSF/Heavy X, those are significantly more fun to fly.
Sorry havent you been saying that you cant fly the Awing effectively against TIER5s! Why are the new ships more fun, because they make it easier for you to kill stuff?
Please please explain how you believe making PvE easier will test our skills! Thats what giving better unbalanced ships has done! Dont believe me, run any mission in every ship in your faction, then do it in a JSJ, youll see the difference then.
" I guarantee you when you take up your stock Xwing into DS and get jumped by a couple of player Interceptors and beat them - thats intense and fun. "
Yes, been there too. I got more of a rush out of taking out 2 JSFs with my Heavy X.
Im beginning to think you dont go to DS ever as your not a master pilot. How could you have made master and still not know the things about pilot that I point out to you above.
Bits in Green are new bits
Well, I hope that helps you. But, thats the last reply i will make to you as -
1. Your way off topic.
2. You are either a pilot with low piloting skills or a troller. Why? because you say things that EVERY other pilot know to be untrue! Ace grind, make PvE easier, Awing not balanced for example.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 10:55 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 10:59 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 11:02 AM
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 11:04 AM
Ducimus
Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:07 am
#135
I havent read all of it, but would it be a fairly accurate assesment to say that, nobody is going to change anyones mind about this topic? I mean, keep playing ping pong by all means, but i dont think anyones gonna "win".
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:12 am
#136
Ducimus wrote:
I havent read all of it, but would it be a fairly accurate assesment to say that, nobody is going to change anyones mind about this topic? I mean, keep playing ping pong by all means, but i dont think anyones gonna "win".
Nah, Ducimus, the guy seemed to have some funny ideas so I wont reply to them anymore after explaining everything out over and over and saying "check the faq" about 10 times. Hopefully he just had the wrong idea and wasnt some troll shining me on, Ive had that happen before!
Back to the topic at hand
"Situation normal, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but its all ok now, were all ok here. How are you?"
Alarien
Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:16 pm
#137
No, I'm not trolling.
::Sigh:: Since you cannot move away from the skill assumptions, I'm going to make my own Cuch, you are really too slow to understand any of my comments at all. Slow. As in, not real swift.
"Actually we dont ALL have 2555f/b REd shields, I dont!"
Grumble. Ok, then you get my point here. Almost any JSF is NOT going to be running RE'd level 8 reward shields due to the weight. Yes, as your first post said, it is IS possible to take the same level shields. But no, as I said, its very unlikely. Geezus man, stop being obtuse.
"Your ships MANOUVERABILITY is determined by the CHASSIS, ie the chassis PYR and its speed mod. This determines how quickly you change directions (MANOUVERABILITY). How quickly you can fly around in a circle is not as important as MANOUVERABILITY which is how quickly you can go from pointing one direction to another."
Seriously, you need to stop now. You really are twisting the facts to try to make yourself sound like you have a point. I know the difference between Chassis turn rate and PYR. I also have enough of a brain to figure out that engine PYR has a very significant effect on the MANEUVERABILITY (god, spelling man) of the ship. Maneuverability is catch all for performance, including turning, it is not tied down to "how fast you can go from pointing one direction to another." Further I am very clear on the concept of the a ship's best turn velocity. It changes nothing. Just because the chassis values might be 300 vs 600 does not mean that an X with a 80 PYR engine will be half as maneuverable as a JSF with a 70 PYR engine. There are mathematical changes in the equation. Don't be silly. Obviously, you are pretty clueless about the performance of a Tier 10 RE engine equipped Heavy X.
"You obviously dont know how to juke, you posted earlier you take hits all the time."
Yes, in a heavy X, I take hits vs multiple enemies (read as 4-6+) all the time. That has nothing to do with my ability to juke. It has everything to do with the fact that when you roll up into firing solution on a target, enemy AI tends to pull 1 or 2 on your tail. Rather than jinking away to avoid taking fire, I calculate how long I'm willing to be targettable in trade for killing a target.
If you say you never take shots against multiple tier 5 targets, I call you a liar. Either that, or you're always an Imp and never have to face turret firing ships like Aggressors.
"Since I got my JSF i have done 15 odd corv runs and on 10 of them I didnt even take a shield hit. There is a set of instructions you can read on how to kill the corvette up in the pilot FAQ, I suggest you read it, its very helpful."
Soloed it first time I attempted to without the help of a FAQ. Soloed the Kash Vette in a poorly equipped B-Wing on attempt number two, after a bugged out false start. I suggest you stuff your suggestions. Further, I highly doubt you pull off 2/3 Corv runs solo without ever taking a single shield hit from a gunboat, fighter, or the vette. Space bombing the vette from 500m doesn't count either.
":I beat 8 to 1 actually. I hyped into DS in a heavily damaged Xwing (70% engine and weapon damage plus a disabled DI). When I appeared I saw an enemy and fired destroying him in his Interceptor. I dont count that a kill as it was reflex. Anyway, i then took out another Int,3 Opps an Advanced and 2 Firesprays in about 60 secs. I took out the Ints first then the Adv,then the Opps, then the Firesprays (order of danger) as they attacked Freedom Station. Only the 3 Firesprays and the last Opp saw me coming and Firesprays are useless so once the Opp was down I was free and clear."
Then you were obviously taking out a pack of utter birdbrains. I agree Firesprays are useless, but I'm assuming they were cranking out missile after missile after you unless they were complete numbskulls. If not, well, then I think the average breathing noob could take out this group of players.
"I think I understand your problem now, you think erroneously that there should be a BETTER ship than others. No, Im afraid your wrong, the shipos should be DIFFERENT, with some more effective in some areas but with a complimentary deficiency to BALANCE out that effectiveness."
No, welcome to reality my friend. No matter how you try to reach the goal of different but equal, it will never happen. There will always be one that has even the ost minor of advantages. Currently, in dogfighting, that's the JSF. The advantage is very minor though. A tiny bit of size over the Bel, slight edge in maneuverability over the Heavy X.
If you haven't figured it out yet, and youobviously haven't, the reason for comparing the JSF and the Heavy X is because they were built with similar balance ideas in mind but a different role. I think they have done that well. You can't compare them to pre-ROTW because frankly we all know there is no comparison. The devs have obviously decided to go a different way recently in regards to balance. Now they should, in my opinion, adjust their original (poor) design to match it.
"Finally here, you have been misinformed, when you reach the Ace box in your pilot profession you will see that there is no ace "grind" but just 2 missions to master. I am surprised you do not know this as you talk with such authority about the corvette run."
No, Einstein, by Ace grind, I obviously meant the grind to get to Ace. That includes tiers 1, 2, 3 and 4. You know, the process of reaching Ace in a tree? Or do you? The original ships were balanced to try to keep that grind from being trivialized. Instead, it made them underpowered for once you reach Ace. Really, I think you should stop trying to interpret or think. You're bad at it.
"Why would the Awing be balanced against a TIER4 NPC, or any other NPC for that matter?"
Read the above again on why it would be.
"You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the box you get certd for a ship denotes that ships tier. "
First off, misapprehension isn't a word. Assumption, misunderstanding, those would be what you were going for. Further, yes, the box you get the ship certed for does have something to do with the intended ships tier. Ever wonder why a Y-wing is Tier 1 and B-Wing is Master? Game balance in the grind. If you were given a Heavy X as a newb, then the content would really be trivial. You can't be THAT dense, can you? Balance at the master level requires some change to the existing to make them useful at that level. If this was XvT or XwA where there was no "level grind" then we wouldn't be having this conversation, because there would only be one balance standard. In this game though, its different, balance is a consideration at different levels.
Sorry havent you been saying that you cant fly the Awing effectively against TIER5s! Why are the new ships more fun, because they make it easier for you to kill stuff?'
Good god man, do you even read? I never ONCE said I had trouble killing anything with an A-Wing. I said it took longer. Did you happen to notice that entire example I gave you on the game scenario to illustrate easy vs tedious? I said it TOOK LONGER. Read that again: TOOK LONGER. Let me interpret for you: TAKES MORE TIME.
Lets look at the final interpretation: LONGER BUT NOT HARDER IS TEDIOUS.
Got that yet? I smoke things in an A-Wing. I find it utterly boring. Is that concept so foreign to you?
"Im beginning to think you dont go to DS ever as your not a master pilot. How could you have made master and still not know the things about pilot that I point out to you above."
You are welcome to drop by Starsider. Character name is Aldarok and I spend most of my time on or around Rori, on the ground. What you need to really learn, on the other hand, is basic reading comprehension.
"2. You are either a pilot with low piloting skills or a troller.":
I've been accused of being a troll before, but that's not the point of this. As for the skill, well, I'm not the one whining about how much better a SHIP makes me. If you stunk so bad in a regular ship that the JSF was the way to make you so much better as a pilot, well, that says a lot more for your piloting skill than mine. I do just as well in my standard ships, just takes a few extra shots from the older ones (making them.. ahem... less fun).
Attacca
Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:18 pm
#138
I don't mind a little ping pong, but is it really necessary to quote someone's entire post every time? Man, and I thought I got wordy...
Alarien
Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:27 pm
#139
Unfortunately, it seems that it is necessary. If he would even READ what he quoted of mine, he would see that its a matter entirely of opinion and we shouldn't even be bothering to argue it. However, he insists he's "right" and that it somehow means I don't know how to pilot. Clearly, as anyone with any reason has already figured out on this thread, "right" is something no one will convince anyone else of. And, as he enjoys making stupid assumptions about skill, well, I feel obligated to respond.
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:29 pm
#140
Alarien wrote:
Unfortunately, it seems that it is necessary. If he would even READ what he quoted of mine, he would see that its a matter entirely of opinion and we shouldn't even be bothering to argue it. However, he insists he's "right" and that it somehow means I don't know how to pilot. Clearly, as anyone with any reason has already figured out on this thread, "right" is something no one will convince anyone else of. And, as he enjoys making stupid assumptions about skill, well, I feel obligated to respond.
well I said I wouldnt reply but I will.
Firstly there is no need to be abusive towards me. You stated several things that were wrong and I tried to inform of you of this. The fact that you are not willing to take constructive criticism shows you in a worse light than me.
I am not insisting i am right. I am insisting that you should read the pilot FAQ before you post such spurious rubbish as the Awing is balanced for TIER4 not TIER5! The pilots who have contributed to this FAQ far surpass your or my skills.
And by the way you can easily fit a lvl 8 reward shield in the JSF, i just ahve a different REed lvl 8 shield in it to the standard ones.
Im sorry that you dont seem to understand or be willing to try to understand these facts that are obvious to most people who are pilots but, that is entirely your problem and not mine.
I made no "assumptions" about your piloting skill, you merely laid out all the information I needed to formulate a hypothesis on this subject. If however, you are an amazing pilot then I apologise. Though as you said you have problems with flying the Awing and seem unable to understand that manouverability is speed of changing direction and not your turning rate, i assumed that you were not a very skillful pilot as all the pilots I know can do that.
You quite clearly stated that you wanted/needed better ships (ROTW ships) to compete. Most pilots however, dont, and in fact find the content pretty easy.
That is my final say on the matter, though im sure youll have some more comments to make, however, it might be better if you went back to the topic of the thread.
CuchulainnDarklight
Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:28 pm
#141
Whatever, the thread is however about the balance between JTL and ROTW ships, not how you feel that the ROTW ships make it more Star Warsy, which they dont, as the starfighters are meant to be fragile contraptions of millions of moving parts, some transparisteel, a load of duraplast and, a plucky R2 unit.
Not ships that put out more firepower than a ISD but soak up a Death Star blast as the new ships do.
Yes the older ships are harder, with less manouverability and less firepower. These are more Star Warsy, watch the films (the ones with Xwings and TIEs in, the ones that started SFX), read the Xwing books too. Even the best pilot should feel a little trepidation at the thought of attacking an enemy.
Unfortunately we have the new ships, which make everything soloable and too easy (shades of compo armour), plus bugged droid commands, plus a lack of content (though the new stuff in kash is a nice distraction when it works), and the final nail in the coffin of this risk of going into space is the removal of battle fatigue and wound accumulation.
When I launch into space it is a break from the plodding button bashing sameness of the ground game. I WANT to pit my little fragile starfighter against the best the Empire has and prevail. Not only cause its fun but, because its MY skills against the NPCs and the other players!
And even more than that - with surroundsound I can hear my R2 unit screaming behind me as I attack!
I want risk, if i screw up I want to lose something! If i win im happy with doing it and bragging about it - i dont need any special loot or anything!
In essence they JTL and ROTW ships are balanced - its just some are balanced one way and some are balanced another way that noone understands. Why cant they just pick one standard of balance and use it. Unfortunately as the server instability we have seen since the new space bits have been introduced leads me to believe that the servers would blow up if all the old ships where "improved" to ROTW standards. Plus, then youd have to up all the capabilities of the NPCs and getting them smarter may be difficult when the devs are doing it as they are not renowned for their intelligence. Artificial or otherwise.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 07-21-2005 03:37 PM
Ducimus
Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:40 pm
#142
Isnt it amazing.. or rather intresting how in a heated online debate, all parties involved have this intrinsic need or desire to get the last word in or have the final say?
