Pikeman Archive

he's right...some people sound like TKAs...

If you don't like what he has to say, suck it up. Don't gripe. Point out other facts and move on.

Message Edited by ArkMindSpear on 04-19-2004 05:14 PM

I think it was a combination of over turning many arguments (and now these other ones that you say you haven't mentioned...what's stopping you? what else is there we are wrong about. Keep being constructive.) and this statement: "According to a bunch of the data here I would think that Swordsmen are really the ones that need work" This quickly became a swordsman vs pikeman debate and I found myself, a long-time supporter of swordsman, thinking that pikeman and swordsman have been brothers on the same (wrong) side of the dev's attention divider, suddenly feeling very opposed to swordsman. Talk on the swordsman boards about soloing ancient krayts, numbers of regular canyons at once and talk of being the undisputed kings of PvE, AoE (which i personally begrudge very much) and very decent in PvP as well simply burns in contrast to the picture you painted of swordsman being this class most desperately in need of fixes whereas pikemen lounged in luxury with our 0.02 superior hit3 dps and improved accuracy.

It's true we are no longer the most inaccurate class as far as player-made weapons go, but we all know that player-made polearms do not approach the capabilities of player-made PHs/scythes. To reach that capability, we must use our NS-looted weapons, all of which come with -45/-45/-45 range mods, thereby negating our accuracy advantage.

So what...our only valid arguments are that we have low toughness and the way block works? And once we get those, then what? We'll be unbalanced? overpowered? I agree that we're not terrible in all things. You are correct in saying that we're not horrible in everything, we're just not great in anything. We have no definition, no outstanding quality at all. Anything we can do, at least one profession can do much better, swordsman very much included.

[Edited to be slightly less inflamatory. I'm tired of it. I have respected StGabe for a long time, and this thread spun me for a loop.]

antares
master pikeman

Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-19-2004 03:43 PM

That is exactly what I wanted to say to StGabriel but you said it 100x better Antares.

Look I don't have a personal problem with you either StGabriel but I said it before and I'll say it again, the way you are presenting your ideas isn't helping anything. We know there is a problem. Comparing us to swordsman isn't going to help those problems because swordsmen are clearly in a much better situation than we are - a simple visit to your forums PROVE that as Antares said. I've mastered Swordsman, I've been there, I know what you're talking about in terms of weaknesses in the profession.

But comming in here and telling us "Its ok because swordsmen are as worse off" (or just a bit better or equal doesn't do us any good. Like I said, if you want to help why don't you help us corner the devs into laying down an actual timetable for the "combat fixes" that will supposedly bring us back into balance instead of just having some bogus "Temporarily on hold" bull Sh|t. \\

I appreciate the work you've done, at least according to everythign you said in your post. Thats great, but to be honest, all thats occuring here is a knock down, dragged out fight for "who has the most need for a boost from the devs." Frankly I don't care. Swordsman have issues we have issues, and lets get them addressed. Your help is appreciated but when you vigorously post responses negating all of our arguments and making seem like we're just all lunatics and totally off base, then thats not help, thats sabotage - unintentional though it may be.

This entire thread could have been so productive if in your 1st post you simply hadn't bashed Gunman's every argument with "evidence" that ion the end is worthless because you are comparing without taking into account the pools you hit. DPS is crap. Its the pools and the damage types that matter.

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antares_Kauri wrote:

I think it was a combination of over turning many arguments (and now these other ones that you say you haven't mentioned...what's stopping you? what else is there we are wrong about. Keep being constructive.) and this statement: "According to a bunch of the data here I would think that Swordsmen are really the ones that need work" This quickly became a swordsman vs pikeman debate and I found myself, a long-time supporter of swordsman, thinking that pikeman and swordsman have been brothers on the same (wrong) side of the dev's attention divider, suddenly feeling very opposed to swordsman. Talk on the swordsman boards about soloing ancient krayts, numbers of regular canyons at once and talk of being the undisputed kings of PvE, AoE (which i personally begrudge very much) and very decent in PvP as well simply burns in contrast to the picture you painted of swordsman being this class most desperately in need of fixes whereas pikemen lounged in luxury with our 0.02 superior hit3 dps and improved accuracy.

It's true we are no longer the most inaccurate class as far as player-made weapons go, but we all know that player-made polearms do not approach the capabilities of player-made PHs/scythes. To reach that capability, we must use our NS-looted weapons, all of which come with -45/-45/-45 range mods, thereby negating our accuracy advantage.

So what...our only valid arguments are that we have low toughness and the way block works? And once we get those, then what? We'll be unbalanced? overpowered? I agree that we're not terrible in all things. You are correct in saying that we're not horrible in everything, we're just not great in anything. We have no definition, no outstanding quality at all. Anything we can do, at least one profession can do much better, swordsman very much included.

[Edited to be slightly less inflamatory. I'm tired of it. I have respected StGabe for a long time, and this thread spun me for a loop.]

antares
master pikeman

Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-19-2004 03:43 PM

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StGabriel, I agree with Antares here. My own view is that you may have been trying to help, but you came across very much as 'sorry your data's all wrong, Swordsmen are just as bad off as you' when clearly they aren't. I mean I know darn near as many Swordsmen as TKA's and I have personally witnessed their vast superiority to me (and other professions to including Pistoleer and Carbineer) in pretty much every practical application. And I'm one of the wealthiest players on the server, so I have the best everything you can get armor, weapons, skilltapes, food, you name it. Am I outclassed in PvE at every turn by Swordsmen let alone Fencers & TKA's yes I am. Do I bother PvPing, no, despite a zillion high DoT lances and the ability to hit the speed cap with anything, fantastic armor, etc.

There is a certain empirical element that you gloss over when you are discussing Gunman's and others findings. Some of the points are not being adequately covered either. I mean if we are going to talk about ridiculousness let's talk about the DPS of the Razor Knuckler at Master TKA with the damage bonus, that's just wrong, the level of improvement compared to the level of improvement of the new pistol, the new rifle, and even the yet another new 2handed weapon. What no new pike, carbine, or 1handed weapon, hmm that's an issue too. Ah well such is life.

Padre

Message Edited by PadreBook on 04-19-2004 04:05 PM

[Edited to be slightly less inflamatory. I'm tired of it. I have respected StGabe for a long time, and this thread spun me for a loop.]

And I have respected the Pikemen forum for a long time and am myself being spun for a loop. I've already commented on the accuracy issues and the relative equality of DPS between the LVA and PH here and I've had you agree with me. I don't understand why suddenly I'm the bad guy for pointing out that not everything stated in this argument is correct.

StGabe.

Yes StGabriel you keep supplying "reasons" why Swordsman is worse than pike however I don't think an overall +5 modifier in the Pikeman tree over swordsman for accuracy makes you so much worse off, or the fact that your powerhammer is stuck at -30 accuracy mods. When you can solo kryats, do 4000 damage hits with a 30% sliced regular powerhammer, do hits to a mind pool, and do a rare type of damage called blast that bypasses MOST high level mob's resists. it puts EVERYTHING you've shown as the "weakness" of the swordsman profession into the category of NEGLIGIBLE.

When I, a master pikeman with a normal 30% sliced lva, can take a kryat one on one like any master swordsman with a decent powerhammer, then I might listen to your argument that our "numbers" regarding the deficiencies of pikemen and our arguments are faulty.

If you'd like to see the deficiencies of a pikeman compared to a swordsman I'll be happy to meet you on Gorath any time and we'll see who can solo a kryat and who can't even come close...

As I keep saying your DPS argument is rediculous. It makes no sense because you can target a SPECIALIZED pool with a SPECIALIZED damage....

God I don't knok how many times I'm going to have to repeat that.....but I'll keep at it till you finally acknowlege the true advantage you have in having that ability.

Laetitia

Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-19-2004 06:11 PM

Lets ask for stun too.

I'd hate to be in the only proffesion who dosent' have it just becouse we were the only one not bitching that we needed it.

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Laetitia-Casta wrote:

When I, a master pikeman with a normal 30% sliced lva, can take a kryat one on one like any master swordsman with a decent powerhammer, then I might listen to your argument that our "numbers" regarding the deficiencies of pikemen and our arguments are faulty.

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Well ... I soloed a Giant Krayt with a Chef/MPike template ... tanked it for 40min =(

Anyway ... the HAM revamp will fix most of our trouble .. but the freaking HAM revamp is in 5 years or something ...

I think we're fine with speed .. I think we're fine with accuracy ... Our defenses are low and could be better ...but I justwish we could get some DAMAGE damnit ..