Pikeman Archive
Thread: In-Depth Analysis of Pikeman
StGabriel
Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:47 am
#66
. . . the nebulous and fictional combat passes . . .
. . . are coming believe it or not. The wait is painful for everyone. That doesn't mean we can forget about them when we try to figure out what to ask for in our professions. Being bitter about this isn't going to help in the long run. We know that speed will probably change and we know that the emphasis will probably be removed from mind damage. These are both things that will change the balancing of professions quite a bit. Given that these changes are likely it's going to be best to frame arguments that take these into account. You can talk about mind damage and the current speed formula, sure, but you should do so acknowledging that these are likely going to change.
StGabe, I can vaguely see that you are in some way trying to help, but it's bordering on almost attempting to force us to roll over and be content with what we have.
I think you've gotta be a bit less black and white here. For every point I make here I make a counterpoint. For the times I have disagreed I've agreed at least as many times. Pointing out that one or two arguments are not working out is NOT saying that you have no argument at all.
We only need some definition you say. If we asked to get our damage fixed, then we would be forced to sacrifice speed. If we got our defenses fixed, we would have to sacrifice damage.
Not sure why you are saying this. If the sum total of your advantages and disadvantages comes in below even, I think you obviously need some help. I think this is the case. I think that your poor defenses outshine the smaller strengths you have in other areas. But yo do have to admit that there are strengths.
If we ask for help, we get shot down.
Correcting a few incorrect statements is not "shooting you down". They're incorrect whether I point them out or not. Better to be corrected by me than a dev when you do get some attention.
...whereas swordsmen have all these problems, are truly the worst here...
Let me quote back to you what I said earlier:
Now am I saying that Pikemen are better than Swordsmen or Fencer? No! I'm saying that the argument here isn't really convincing me and I'm suggesting places where you might shift focus and tighten it up a bit.
If your opening salvo is, "the DPS on Hit3 sucks", and in fact the numbers you use do not support this, then why will the devs take you seriously? If you show that Pikemen have a +20 advantage on Swordsmen accuracy and disadvantage of a few points on the LVA (and actually I'm not so sure about this) then anyone reading your post carefully is going to balk when you claim that you are the most inaccurate profession.
StGabe.
. . . are coming believe it or not. The wait is painful for everyone. That doesn't mean we can forget about them when we try to figure out what to ask for in our professions. Being bitter about this isn't going to help in the long run. We know that speed will probably change and we know that the emphasis will probably be removed from mind damage. These are both things that will change the balancing of professions quite a bit. Given that these changes are likely it's going to be best to frame arguments that take these into account. You can talk about mind damage and the current speed formula, sure, but you should do so acknowledging that these are likely going to change.
StGabe, I can vaguely see that you are in some way trying to help, but it's bordering on almost attempting to force us to roll over and be content with what we have.
I think you've gotta be a bit less black and white here. For every point I make here I make a counterpoint. For the times I have disagreed I've agreed at least as many times. Pointing out that one or two arguments are not working out is NOT saying that you have no argument at all.
We only need some definition you say. If we asked to get our damage fixed, then we would be forced to sacrifice speed. If we got our defenses fixed, we would have to sacrifice damage.
Not sure why you are saying this. If the sum total of your advantages and disadvantages comes in below even, I think you obviously need some help. I think this is the case. I think that your poor defenses outshine the smaller strengths you have in other areas. But yo do have to admit that there are strengths.
If we ask for help, we get shot down.
Correcting a few incorrect statements is not "shooting you down". They're incorrect whether I point them out or not. Better to be corrected by me than a dev when you do get some attention.
...whereas swordsmen have all these problems, are truly the worst here...
Let me quote back to you what I said earlier:
Now am I saying that Pikemen are better than Swordsmen or Fencer? No! I'm saying that the argument here isn't really convincing me and I'm suggesting places where you might shift focus and tighten it up a bit.
If your opening salvo is, "the DPS on Hit3 sucks", and in fact the numbers you use do not support this, then why will the devs take you seriously? If you show that Pikemen have a +20 advantage on Swordsmen accuracy and disadvantage of a few points on the LVA (and actually I'm not so sure about this) then anyone reading your post carefully is going to balk when you claim that you are the most inaccurate profession.
StGabe.
asgoia
Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:21 am
#67
Yeah the mind might eventually change and then you guys will probably be in the same boat as us.
Are any suggestions that have made in this thread been sent any where? I mean for us being a Tank as our definition. I would really have no problem with that. Swordsman should be the dmg stealers. Tka should be uniquness and fencer should be speed.Bah I'm about to miss a shuttle and I've alredy waited 9 min I'll get back when a response shows up.
StGabriel
Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:50 pm
#68
antares, I think you'll find really all you need to answer that post in my prior postings:
The problem then is not so much that Pikeman damage is low but rather that isn't the best AND there is no other role in which Pikemen do excel.
If the sum total of your advantages and disadvantages comes in below even, I think you obviously need some help. I think this is the case.
I'm just pointing out holes in your argument. A common sentiment that I hear from Pikemen is that Swordsmen have it so great. Well, in some ways I there certainly is a gulf between these professions. I'm not sure that it's Hit3 though or the DPS on your weapons though.
I've played quite a bit of each melee profession. It's what I did instead of holo-chasing. My sentiments regarding Pikemen have always been: it's not that they're bad, it's just that they're not good. My Pikeman character did fine. She gained skill quickly and was fairly successful in a lot of things. She simply did not excel in any area.
. . .
Look, mostly I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying that certain arguments made here don't work in an effort to help you guys focus on the right things and not get bogged up on things that aren't really an issue or won't be according to stuff we already know is likely to happen with the combat revamp.
The problem then is not so much that Pikeman damage is low but rather that isn't the best AND there is no other role in which Pikemen do excel.
If the sum total of your advantages and disadvantages comes in below even, I think you obviously need some help. I think this is the case.
I'm just pointing out holes in your argument. A common sentiment that I hear from Pikemen is that Swordsmen have it so great. Well, in some ways I there certainly is a gulf between these professions. I'm not sure that it's Hit3 though or the DPS on your weapons though.
I've played quite a bit of each melee profession. It's what I did instead of holo-chasing. My sentiments regarding Pikemen have always been: it's not that they're bad, it's just that they're not good. My Pikeman character did fine. She gained skill quickly and was fairly successful in a lot of things. She simply did not excel in any area.
. . .
Look, mostly I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying that certain arguments made here don't work in an effort to help you guys focus on the right things and not get bogged up on things that aren't really an issue or won't be according to stuff we already know is likely to happen with the combat revamp.
Jereck
Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:04 pm
#69
I'll send you $100 through paypal if this "combat revamp" happens before the SE. Its like your mom telling you to sleep on christmas eve so santa won't make you goblind if you see him. Its a joke, a myth, and it makes amockery of our intelect.
Jadkia
Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:36 pm
#70
I think one of the major problems is that everyone has their own view of how the classes should all be and what they should specialize in. I have always thought of it in a compass type system. Meaning that in each cardinal direction you have a speciality. North would be high single target damage. South would be High AoE damage. West and East would be defenses but each being a bit different in what it is best against. I this view I would see Swordsman as having best AoE and some moderate defenses in each direction but nothing impressive. The polar opposite to them would be TKA with the highest single target damage and also having moderate but in the same boat for defenses as swordsman. Then Fencer and Pikeman would be the Defensive specialists with fencer leaning towards single target while Pikeman leans to the AoE side. As it actually is I think that TKA covers most of those bases very well. I don't have a lot of esperience with the other classes though so I can't say where they are.
PadreBook
Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:03 pm
#71
StGabriel wrote:
Not to be picky at the details, but Scythes can and are mass produced by weaponsmiths. The limited use of the schematic that is looted for the scythe blade is negated by that fact.
Not true. Scythes require Geonosian Sword Cores. To "mass produce" these you need to be able to mass produce identical Geonosian Sword Cores. As these are in turn dependent on Geonosian Power Cubes, it is impossible to mass produce Scythes. At best you might get 3 out of one use (and that would require 9 identical Geonosian Power Cubes or 8 idential looted cores).
As to the rest of your reply, I agree that the Nightsister Energy Lance should be looked at and I agree that Pikemen need work (as I've said above).
I can go to many master weaponsmith vendors (at least 10) and find Scythes in stock, how about NS Energy Lances, hmm oh yeah you are trying to wave your hand and try Jedi Mind Trick on us. Nnnnt sorry you failed your roll, we've seen how many Scythe are available. And how every Swordsman seems to have at least one.
Padre
PadreBook
Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:20 pm
#72
StGabriel wrote:
. . . the nebulous and fictional combat passes . . .
. . . are coming believe it or not. The wait is painful for everyone. That doesn't mean we can forget about them when we try to figure out what to ask for in our professions. Being bitter about this isn't going to help in the long run. We know that speed will probably change and we know that the emphasis will probably be removed from mind damage. These are both things that will change the balancing of professions quite a bit. Given that these changes are likely it's going to be best to frame arguments that take these into account. You can talk about mind damage and the current speed formula, sure, but you should do so acknowledging that these are likely going to change.
StGabe, I can vaguely see that you are in some way trying to help, but it's bordering on almost attempting to force us to roll over and be content with what we have.
I think you've gotta be a bit less black and white here. For every point I make here I make a counterpoint. For the times I have disagreed I've agreed at least as many times. Pointing out that one or two arguments are not working out is NOT saying that you have no argument at all.
We only need some definition you say. If we asked to get our damage fixed, then we would be forced to sacrifice speed. If we got our defenses fixed, we would have to sacrifice damage.
Not sure why you are saying this. If the sum total of your advantages and disadvantages comes in below even, I think you obviously need some help. I think this is the case. I think that your poor defenses outshine the smaller strengths you have in other areas. But yo do have to admit that there are strengths.
If we ask for help, we get shot down.
Correcting a few incorrect statements is not "shooting you down". They're incorrect whether I point them out or not. Better to be corrected by me than a dev when you do get some attention.
...whereas swordsmen have all these problems, are truly the worst here...
Let me quote back to you what I said earlier:
Now am I saying that Pikemen are better than Swordsmen or Fencer? No! I'm saying that the argument here isn't really convincing me and I'm suggesting places where you might shift focus and tighten it up a bit.
If your opening salvo is, "the DPS on Hit3 sucks", and in fact the numbers you use do not support this, then why will the devs take you seriously? If you show that Pikemen have a +20 advantage on Swordsmen accuracy and disadvantage of a few points on the LVA (and actually I'm not so sure about this) then anyone reading your post carefully is going to balk when you claim that you are the most inaccurate profession.
StGabe.
I like that part where you say it needs to be less black and white when that's exactly how you are shooting down our Correspondents details. Particularly the part where you fail to mention the astronomic difference between having an AP2 Blast Damage Weapon (Blast damage type being the resistance type that is by far the most common vulnerability or lowest damage type from all medium to high level mobs) that is able to target the Mind Pool (particularly important for PvP). You also fail to adequately defend or cover the fact that while the Scythe is a limited use schematic that requires loot drops that those loot drops are being farmed like it's wheat in the Great Plains and the schematic quest is farmable versus our super rare very difficult to get limited use schematic and rarely dropping loot items which are mostly used for VK's as it is, and the Scythe is a better weapon than our 'special' weapon. In fact you fail to cover how in practice our numbers are WORSE than this analysis indicates and definitely far different from this rosy picture of Pikeman-Swordsman equality that you try to paint with your two color palette.
Padre
Message Edited by PadreBook on 04-19-2004 01:21 PM
HemiKeeroc
Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:36 pm
#73
Pikemen can't fight doctors or even medics, let alone anyone wearing decent armor, without exceptional loot drops, dot weapons, +25 to all available stats. I have said items, so I'm all good. But saying that pikemen are better off than swordsman is an utter joke.
PadreBook
Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:52 pm
#74
One more thing Herr Black&White (StGabriel), what about the real world functionality of Block versus Counterattack or Dodge. Counterattack (the Swordsman defense) and Dodge both stop 100% of damage on a Success while Block (the Pikeman defense) only functions when under Center of Being and allows half damage through on a SUCCESS. Can you elaborate on how half damage on a success defending from the hits of high level MOB's is comparable to no damage? Or in layman's terms can you explain how 50% of 5000 damage is remotely comparable to 0% of 5000 damage?!?
Padre
Padre
antares_Kauri
Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:23 pm
#75
I have to say he did mention block sucked.
antares
master pikeman
antares
master pikeman
PadreBook
Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:27 pm
#76
antares_Kauri wrote:
I have to say he did mention block sucked.
antares
master pikeman
Ok fair enough, but that's one of the 'grey' area issues that is far more significant than the attention it gets. I mean if Counterattack allowed half damage on a success I mean then we might almost be comparable to Swordsman. I mean this isn't something that happens once in a while, this is every single time, and many many times during even a single fight. I mean to compare a Swordsman/Fencer's combat logs versus a Pikeman's in one salle on the Corvette and that is insane the amount of damage we have to take versus anyone else.
Padre
ArkMindSpear
Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:29 pm
#77
don't you think we should focus now not on wether or not pikeman may or may not be as well off as swordsman, so much as what can be done about it?
GUnman is trying hard to come up with ways we can improve and everyone is instead just in a hissy fight with stgabriel.....
I don't know StGabriel, so if you feel the need to bash him, far be it from me to stop you. But he has alot of good points, and is just playing the devils advicate....
And either way, we are loosing what ever focus we had before....
Right now we have alot of people on our side...if we don't strike while the iron is hot, most people will lose interest in a week or so.....
So think about it.....
StGabriel
Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:52 pm
#78
PadreBook, I think you'll find your concerns already answered. I never claimed to be attacking the entire argument that Pikemen need help, in fact I state several times that I support Pikemen in a search for help. I bring up DPS, for example, as it is a central component of the argument presented here (which is not MY argument!).
I have been vocal about problems with Pikemen block (as well as Pikemen toughness) in this thread and in others (including to the devs).
I read your statements as more of a personal attack than anything, attemping to discredit me or what have you. I'm not sure how that is going to be constructive or useful for you guys. I am and will be a proponent of Pikemen. I've been very active in this in the past and I was a part of bringing the accuracy changes to Pikemen (which made Pikemen more accurate than Swordsmen).
The original argument given in this thread prevent several claims that I find unfounded and drawing them out is my primary purpose here. If I anger a few Pikemen but drive home the point that the low damage modifier on Pikemen Hit3 is indeed balanced by a correspondingly low delay modifier then I think I think it was worth it to help you guys develop stronger arguments for a cause that I do support. Another example, and no offense, but I'm tired of Pikemen claiming that they're most inaccurate profession. It is this statement itself which is inaccurate and it doesn't help your cause to continue to continue to claim it.
Have I ever denied that blast was an advantage? No. Have I ever denied that the Energy Lance is hard to obtain? No, in fact I have probably posted half a dozen posts on the Correspondent forum, this week alone, supporting the need to alter the availability of Nightsister Vibro Blade Units and voicing concern in tying another weapon to that loot. Have I ever denied that hitting mind is an advantage? No, although I have mentioned that indications are that mind damage is likely to be more healable in the future and this advantage will go away. Have I not agreed that Pikemen need help? No. I simply disagree with SOME of the arguments made here and I don't think that providing poor arguments is going to help your cause.
I know the propensity on these forums is to be very aggressive at attacking any outsider that does not immediately agree with the forum's concensus. However, particularly in this case, I really don't think you're helping yourselves. All I'm trying to do is point out some arguments that don't work so well (and I haven't made claims about others that you are bringing up). My point is not: Pikemen are better than Swordsmen. I think that both professions have very valid concerns right now and we should attempt to not step on each other but rather to cooperate to get the changes we need. The best you could do here is piss off someone who has been very vocally supportive of Pikemen. FWIW, that's not really a worry. A glance at my postings can tell you that I'm fairly thick-skinned with respect to the forums. Even if I thought the Pikemen forum was full of idiots (I don't, I've always thought this was one of the better forums although I am somewhat dismayed by the aggressive and antagonistic posts I'm getting here) I'd still support the profession itself.
I have been vocal about problems with Pikemen block (as well as Pikemen toughness) in this thread and in others (including to the devs).
I read your statements as more of a personal attack than anything, attemping to discredit me or what have you. I'm not sure how that is going to be constructive or useful for you guys. I am and will be a proponent of Pikemen. I've been very active in this in the past and I was a part of bringing the accuracy changes to Pikemen (which made Pikemen more accurate than Swordsmen).
The original argument given in this thread prevent several claims that I find unfounded and drawing them out is my primary purpose here. If I anger a few Pikemen but drive home the point that the low damage modifier on Pikemen Hit3 is indeed balanced by a correspondingly low delay modifier then I think I think it was worth it to help you guys develop stronger arguments for a cause that I do support. Another example, and no offense, but I'm tired of Pikemen claiming that they're most inaccurate profession. It is this statement itself which is inaccurate and it doesn't help your cause to continue to continue to claim it.
Have I ever denied that blast was an advantage? No. Have I ever denied that the Energy Lance is hard to obtain? No, in fact I have probably posted half a dozen posts on the Correspondent forum, this week alone, supporting the need to alter the availability of Nightsister Vibro Blade Units and voicing concern in tying another weapon to that loot. Have I ever denied that hitting mind is an advantage? No, although I have mentioned that indications are that mind damage is likely to be more healable in the future and this advantage will go away. Have I not agreed that Pikemen need help? No. I simply disagree with SOME of the arguments made here and I don't think that providing poor arguments is going to help your cause.
I know the propensity on these forums is to be very aggressive at attacking any outsider that does not immediately agree with the forum's concensus. However, particularly in this case, I really don't think you're helping yourselves. All I'm trying to do is point out some arguments that don't work so well (and I haven't made claims about others that you are bringing up). My point is not: Pikemen are better than Swordsmen. I think that both professions have very valid concerns right now and we should attempt to not step on each other but rather to cooperate to get the changes we need. The best you could do here is piss off someone who has been very vocally supportive of Pikemen. FWIW, that's not really a worry. A glance at my postings can tell you that I'm fairly thick-skinned with respect to the forums. Even if I thought the Pikemen forum was full of idiots (I don't, I've always thought this was one of the better forums although I am somewhat dismayed by the aggressive and antagonistic posts I'm getting here) I'd still support the profession itself.