Pikeman Archive

St Gabe you've bought into this DPS bull crap way to much.... Who gives a Bleep about DPS. Wow one of our attacks does higher DPS than swordsman and therefore we are obviously SOOOO much better right?

DPS doesn't mean anything when you have BLAST damage and we do KINETIC damage. DPS goes out the window when you hit our MIND pool and we hit your ACTION pool.

And if you truly INTENDED to to be constructive in your posts and if you truly do understand our plight as a professions (which I now very much doubt having ready every single one of your posts), then I appreciate your INTENT and I'll tell you right now the only thing you DID was make 90% every pikeman on this forum laugh, shake his/her head at you and say "This guy is living in a fantasy world - and if its the same place the devs live then pikeman will be broken forever"

And personally sir, I don't intend to wait quietly "indefinitely" for some "magical combat pass" that SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED FOUR MONTHS AGO! The only reason YOU have recieved hate and anger from these forums, misdirected or not is because WE'RE REALLY PISSED THAT NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION! And you comming into this forum and telling us that we really don't have it that bad is simply an attempt to pacify us and calm us down until we're fixed.

Well I think I speak for most of us when I say I'm SICK of being LIED TO and told to KEEP WAITING by some dumb group of devs. We were promised a fix, and now we've been told its on hold indefinitely - and what theat says to me is "WE'RE JUST NOT GOING TO EVER GET AROUND TO IT BUT WE'LL KEEP YOU TIED TO THE GAME BY GIVING YOU HOPE."

If you want to PROVE your comittment to fixing pikeman then I'll tell you what you can do. Stop right now trying to "refine our argument" or "crunch DPS data for analysis." Go right now to the Devs and say "what I want is a DATE." No more "INDEFINATE HOLD" on this magical combat pass. We want a DATE in WRITING by the Devs.

If you want to help us, then thats what you can do for US - prove to US that fixes are comming. Forget trying to PROVE what needs to be fixed because by now the Devs should know or else they damn well need to be fired.

And I'll tell you right now if you actually go and do this, and get an actual DATE. And the Devs hold to that, I will mail you $50 if you provide me your address. But I'm not worried - they won't give you a date or even a target MONTH - why? because the combat pass isn't comming, ITS ALL JUST A LIE designed to tie us to the game while we wait and wait and wait, until finally our patience runs out but by that time we figure that out they'll have made another few thousand dollars off of us so what do they care?

Laetitia

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StGabriel wrote:
FWIW, compare a powerhammer to an LVA (given those numbers):

Base DPS:
Powerhammer -- [(138+466)/2] / 5.4 = 55.92
Long Vibro Axe -- [(110+376)/2] / 4.4 = 55.22

The Powerhammer has a very slight advantage.

DPS for Hit3:
Powerhammer -- 55.92*4.0/3.25 = 68.82
Long Vibro Axe -- 55.22*3.0/2.5 = 66.26

The advantage increases only slightly.

Note that an LVA is more accurate than a power hammer (slightly better ranged mods as well as higher accuracy mods at Master Pikeman).

StGabe.

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Convienently forgeting a significant advantage to the Power Hammer that being it's Blast damage. I would classify that under other special features of a class. Fencer's Stun damage availability also.

Padre

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StGabriel wrote:
I've played quite a bit of each melee profession. It's what I did instead of holo-chasing. My sentiments regarding Pikemen have always been: it's not that they're bad, it's just that they're not good. My Pikeman character did fine. She gained skill quickly and was fairly successful in a lot of things. She simply did not excel in any area.

Pikemen really need definition (but of course, so do Swordsmen). They need some things that they excel at. Your damage is, fairly good. At the high end it suffers a bit due, primarily, to problems with the speed equation (which, it has been hinted at a number of times, is likely to change eventually). But your not the best damage damage dealers and you don't have a damage type like blast that excels for any form of content (well, I would argue that electricity is the second best to stun for high-end PvP -- it is guaranteed to cap out at 80% resist on composite while the other resists can go to 90%). Pikemen defense sucks, there's no denying that. Block is quite pooor and I think you really should get that toughness in the Brawler blocks (and I made that an issue when I was Brawler corr). You have good AE, but EVERYONE seems to have decent AE. I like the Pikeman specials myself, but there's nothing there that reallly carves out a role for Pikeman.

So, just to add constructive criticism, I'd say you need to focus on the lack of a role and lack of areas in which you excel. Assuming that the speed equation will change eventually, I'm not sure that Hit3 is such a great thing to harp on, nor is the damage of your weapons. If anything, when it comes to damage I'm mostly just concerned that the TKA damage bonus beats outright the average damage on a Scythe (which is a real DPS monster, admittedly). But I'm not sure whether that's about Pikemen and Swordsmen or about TKA.

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Ok there. Let's talk about some other stuff if you are going to imply that Swordsman has it worse off. Swordsman attacks the Mind Pool, with an AP2 Blast weapon (the Stun of PvE) that does more damage than the LVA. The MIND Pool! We attack the Action Pool which is the least desirable. And our Pool specific shot is significantly worse. Swordsman area attacks have higher damage multiplers also.

Padre

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StGabriel wrote:
Scythe

Nightsister Energy Lance

Raw DPS:
NSEL -- 64.06
Scythe -- 78.46

The Scythe is a clear winner in terms of AP and damage, but then the NS EL looks much better (), has DoT's, and is a third damage type for Pikemen (whereas the scythe is yet another AP2 kinetic weapon for swordsmen).

Both have problems being obtained. The scythe is problematic in that there is no renewable source of Scythe schematics meaning that the Scythe will slowly become extinct. The Nightsister Energy Lance is problematic in that Axkva is probably the hardest NPC in the game as well as the longest respawn and doesn't drop stuff very often.

In both cases I think I'd take the Scythe (although if we don't see some way to get more scythe schematics, that might change in a few months Axkva might suddenly start looking pretty attractive). IMO, the Nightsister Energy Lance definitely deserves some attention.

Just for the heck of it, here's another another item to throw in:

Nightsister Long Vibro Axe (made with NS vbu's)

NSLVA dps -- 77.7

Pretty much equivalent to a Scythe. Damagewise anyway. In retrospect I wish I hadn't made the NSLVA (I wish I'd kept the units for playing with the unique schematics and just relied on getting good LVA loot drops) but it is an interesting weapon.

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Scythe MUCH easier to get the loot drop components for than the NS Lance, has a higher base damage and is AP2. Not even comparable, as every single Swordsman is able to get a Scythe or two, three even. Heck I have several myself and a acklay powerhammer that does 787 damage with a powerup, and I don't even have two handed I. Convienent how that never seems to be mentioned how Swordsmen have 6 (soon to be 7) AP2 weapons and Pikemen (supposedly with the 'hardest hitting weapons) have 1 and are only ever going to have one. I know you want to have people believe that Pikeman is really superior to Swordsman but that just doesn't cut it actual playing of the professions in the game.

Padre

we just need a dmg modifier revamp and would be fine. only thing holding us back really from being somewhat = is the dmg modifiers.

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StGabriel wrote:
Not to be picky at the details, but Scythes can and are mass produced by weaponsmiths. The limited use of the schematic that is looted for the scythe blade is negated by that fact.

Not true. Scythes require Geonosian Sword Cores. To "mass produce" these you need to be able to mass produce identical Geonosian Sword Cores. As these are in turn dependent on Geonosian Power Cubes, it is impossible to mass produce Scythes. At best you might get 3 out of one use (and that would require 9 identical Geonosian Power Cubes or 8 idential looted cores).

As to the rest of your reply, I agree that the Nightsister Energy Lance should be looked at and I agree that Pikemen need work (as I've said above).

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the NS Energy lance is also limited use schematic, sure it can be looted but its rarer to loot one than unlock your FS slot and is not = to risk vs reward at all. I would gladly throw the double DoT out the window for higher damage.

look Stun Damage will be worthless again as soon as armor is fixed, which it needs to be. Right now yea Stun Damage is the only kind that works right but they will eventually fix that...I hate eventually.

I was a Master Pikeman for 6 months, left, went TKA, went Fencer, went bh/pistols,went cm, and came back. Nothings changed we are still the WORST overall in pvp. I will argue that point to no end. I have a friend who is a master swordsman and has been for sometime. He can beat me when we use standard weapons everytime, for reasons mentioned, IE hit 3 pops up, and mind dmg. While that kind of thing maybe changed who knows when.

I would argue that Swordman do have at least one role in the game right now, they are the meleers that can take down turrets due to Blast dmg. Pikeman have roles but unfortunaly not in pvp. we are good for crowd control in some pve.

I do agree that Swordsman and pikeman both need work. right now TKM is so overpowered, dont give me that kinetic only bull crap, i have been an TKM, its overpowered period.

Our strength seems to rely on our looted weapons, that would be acceptable if we were able to damage our once a day impossible to solo, doesn't always drop items spawn or if we had some kind of static NS missions for pikemen. I love our loot but the problem is we should not be required to loot to be effective.

"Player-crafted weapons will be more powerful than looted weapons" Don't you love the devs.

"Combat rebalance will take place over the next three publishes"

I will say this, BHs have it worse than us as a combat class, but with a stun pistol and eye shot, they still need more work than anyone though.

Here is my proposal

Pikeman:
Highest dps area attacks
Highest dmg single strike
Lowest Accuracy
Higher Melee/Ranged Defense
Special Skill: Crowd Control/Pushback

Swordsman:
Highest dps single strike
Hiighest dmg area attack
Lowest Speed
Higher Toughness
Special Skill: Single Target Takedown/Turret Knocking

Fencer:
as is, its actually what I think a profession should look like, and if others brought upto par then would be seen like this.
Special Skill: Hard to Hit

TKM:
I don't wanna cry nerf but it needs something done to make it not the end-all melee, thats all im going to say.

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Laetitia-Casta wrote:
Yes StGabriel you keep supplying "reasons" why Swordsman is worse than pike however I don't think an overall +5 modifier in the Pikeman tree over swordsman for accuracy makes you so much worse off, or the fact that your powerhammer is stuck at -30 accuracy mods. When you can solo kryats, do 4000 damage hits with a 30% sliced regular powerhammer, do hits to a mind pool, and do a rare type of damage called blast that bypasses MOST high level mob's resists. it puts EVERYTHING you've shown as the "weakness" of the swordsman profession into the category of NEGLIGIBLE.

When I, a master pikeman with a normal 30% sliced lva, can take a kryat one on one like any master swordsman with a decent powerhammer, then I might listen to your argument that our "numbers" regarding the deficiencies of pikemen and our arguments are faulty.

If you'd like to see the deficiencies of a pikeman compared to a swordsman I'll be happy to meet you on Gorath any time and we'll see who can solo a kryat and who can't even come close...

As I keep saying your DPS argument is rediculous. It makes no sense because you can target a SPECIALIZED pool with a SPECIALIZED damage....

God I don't knok how many times I'm going to have to repeat that.....but I'll keep at it till you finally acknowlege the true advantage you have in having that ability.

Laetitia

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I concur and I also would like to reiterate a basic point we are taking half damage everytime we SUCCESSFULLY defend unlike Swordsmen that take no damage everytime they successfully defend. Half damage over and over from a Krayt or ANY OTHER high level mob is a world of difference from NO DAMAGE!

Padre

The TK artist is fast enough that his autoattack is every second, so he does 686DPS

Furthermore, he has such an abundance of speed that he can spam hit3 every second for x4 damage, for a mind boggling2744 DPS

To recap, vs. Light armor:

Pikeman autoattack DPS / hit3 spamming DPS: 653/ 784

TK autoattack DPS / hit3 spamming DPS: 686 / 2744

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So there you have it. A TK artist spamming hit3 outdamages a Pikeman by 3.5 times. To match thatlevel of kickass-osity,you are going to need an LVA in the neighborhood of 500-1711 @ 4.5s (and that's if you don't miss)

How to explain the extreme disparity? I don't know, but if 2744 AP1 DPS is an acceptable level of melee damage output,I'd say Pikeman, Swordsman, and Fencer are all overdue for some monstrouslypowerful new weapons

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And furthermore...what happens when the Pikeman & TK artist spam hit3 on an enhanced kwi (medium armor)? The Pikeman loses his 25% damage bonus vs. Light armor, but still hits for full damage:for 627 DPS. The TK artist starts doing half damage since his VK is only AP1... but still manages to do twice as much damage as the Pikeman at 1372 DPS!

What's wrong with this picture?

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raider7734 wrote:

If you want to make the case that Pikeman'sdamage output is lacking,just compare it to TK

Here's arundown of it, including the effects of 'typical'slicing and the standard damage mod of x1.86, so these will be prettyrealistic numbers that could actually be tested & observed ingame

Pikeman starts with an LVA, 110-376 @ 4.5s. Itgets an above average(30%)damage slice so it becomes 143-489 (average 316). Then we apply the standard damage mod of x1.86 and another x1.25 since I'm standardizing this comparison vs. Light armored stuff, and we get 735 damage per hit (average)

The Pikeman has speed +75 and so autoattacks every 1.125s.DPS is then 735 / 1.125 = 653. Hit3 is good for x3 damage but x2.5 delay, so by using hit3 this can be improved to 653 x 3 / 2.5 = 784DPS

TK starts with a VK, 36-147 @ 2.2s. It gets an above average (30%) damage slice so it becomes 47-191 (average 119). Unarmed damage +250 brings this up nicely, to 369. Then we apply the standard damage mod of x1.86 and we get 686 damage per hit (average)

The TK artist is fast enough that his autoattack is every second, so he does 686DPS

Furthermore, he has such an abundance of speed that he can spam hit3 every second for x4 damage, for a mind boggling2744 DPS

To recap, vs. Light armor:

Pikeman autoattack DPS / hit3 spamming DPS: 653/ 784

TK autoattack DPS / hit3 spamming DPS: 686 / 2744

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So there you have it. A TK artist spamming hit3 outdamages a Pikeman by 3.5 times. To match thatlevel of kickass-osity,you are going to need an LVA in the neighborhood of 500-1711 @ 4.5s (and that's if you don't miss)

How to explain the extreme disparity? I don't know, but if 2744 AP1 DPS is an acceptable level of melee damage output,I'd say Pikeman, Swordsman, and Fencer are all overdue for some monstrouslypowerful new weapons

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And furthermore...what happens when the Pikeman & TK artist spam hit3 on an enhanced kwi (medium armor)? The Pikeman loses his 25% damage bonus vs. Light armor, but still hits for full damage:for 627 DPS. The TK artist starts doing half damage since his VK is only AP1... but still manages to do twice as much damage as the Pikeman at 1372 DPS!

What's wrong with this picture?

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What about the DPS on a 30% damage sliced razor knuckler? Base damage on those is what 230+ before slicing? Anyone feel like getting the TKA correspondent over here to tell us they aren't 'Uber' and really it's rough being able to target any pool at will, do insane damage, stop insane damage, have better defenses PLUS some of the most powerful abilities in the game like Meditate & Powerboost which are unmatched by ANY other profession.

Padre

Message Edited by PadreBook on 04-20-2004 10:38 AM

Nerfing another class doesn't get pikeman fixed. As much as I hate getting beat by TK's, we should focus on our own problems more then professions that actually work.