Pikeman Archive

Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-17-2004 04:23 PM

Message Edited by ArkMindSpear on 04-17-2004 07:33 PM

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antares_Kauri wrote:

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ArkMindSpear wrote:

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antares wrote:

Ok...after the shock of seeing ark be constructive...

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No one likes you, ya know?

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Didn't see that coming.

antares
master pikeman

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Oh, hes just teasing Antares. We all like you just fine.

/comfort Antares

/frown Ark

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StGabriel wrote:
No no, only swordsman needs more stuff. We're fine, we have no argument left. If we got anything more, we'd be unbalanced.

This is obviously not what I'm saying. I'm looking to have a constructive conversation here but if you insist on making it "me vs. you" or "pikemen vs. swordsmen" I'm not sure how that's going to happen.

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No, what you've been saying all along is Pikeman isn't so bad it just needs "definition" and Swordsman is actually worse. That the Nightsister Energy Lance is better than the Scythe purely because the Scythe is a limited use schematic. That one move we have a slightly higher dps (forget its dubious use in pvpbecause of the posture change in it) over Swordsman. And I guess block is also so much better than counterattack, but you haven't gotten to that yet.

I would dare to say you've made this a Pikeman vs. Swordsman thread now. We don't want Swordsman nerfed, many of us are also Swordsman. We dont want your weapons taken away, we dont want your damage lowered, we dont want you to have block instead of counterattack, we dont want your easily accessible Scythe made into the extreme that the Nightsister Energy Lance is, we dont want your Acklay powerhammers toned down.

We just want parity. We would like to have our end game weapon be a schematic from a thirty minute quest. We would like new weapons now and then, even if they are in someways just a re-hash of ones we presently have with new skins. We would like to have Aklay LVAs. We would like to have a no damage defensive reaction instead of the 50% we presently take on ours. We would like our master level attack to not stand our opponent straight back up again if we use it.

We dont want anyone nerfed, we just want parity.

No, what you've been saying all along is Pikeman isn't so bad it just needs "definition" and Swordsman is actually worse.

Yes, and I agree and I have been saying this as well.

And I guess block is also so much better than counterattack, but you haven't gotten to that yet.

I have mentioned this at least twice in this thread as well as the fact that you guys don't get all the toughness mods in brawler that other professions get. I do indeed think that these are important things to note and I can tell you that in my time as Brawler and Swordsmen correspondent I have probably brought these issues up on the Correspondents forum at least half a dozen times apiece.

I would dare to say you've made this a Pikeman vs. Swordsman thread now.

I never cared for a competition I simply wished to point out that certain comparisons made to other professions are not necessarily true. I think it's not correct to call PIkemen the least accurate profession. I think it's not correct to call Polearm Hit3 vastly inferior to the other Hit3's.

We just want parity.

Great, I'm all for that and I've said half a dozen times that I'm a Pikeman supporter through and through and that I agree that you have stuff to complain about.

We would like to have our end game weapon be a schematic from a thirty minute quest.

Be careful what you ask for. If nothing changes, in a few months there won't be very many scythes around.

We don't want anyone nerfed.

Great, I'm not calling for a nerf on your profession. It's not about a competition. It's about pointing out where your guys arguments may not be strong. It's about trying to keep you guys honest and make sure that you don't go too far in claiming that you are the worst profession out there. Most professions try to do that at one point or another. I think you'll always get better results by trying to honestly appraise all of your claims and weed out the ones that might be a bit more extravagant. In this case I'm pointing out, among other things, that pushing for a change to Hit3 might not be the best possible route or at least, if you do so, you should note that the lower damage modifier IS balanced by a lower delay modifier. You can't mention just half of the equation.

Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-17-2004 03:13 PM

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According to a bunch of the data here I would think that Swordsmen are really the ones that need work. They have a minimal DPS advantage with the weapons and specials listed. They have higher toughness but they have lower melee/ranged defenses and lower status defenses. They have the same speed bonus, their most common weapon is the slowest, and suffers more from damage mitigation. Swordsmen also should probably get the medal for worst accuracy. My powerhammers come out at -30 ranged mods without concentrating on ranged mods and my LVA's come out at -26. On top of that Pikemen have a +20 advantage in terms of accuracy modifiers. That seems to me to say that an LVA has a +24 advantage over a power hammer (which translates to a 12% chance to hit which is not too shabby).

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Tell me how I'm supposed to respond to that gabe. you took all of the hard information I had and turned it around.

Message Edited by Gunman21 on 04-17-2004 12:15 PM

Tell me how I'm supposed to respond to that gabe. you took all of the hard information I had and turned it around.

Look, if you claim that Pikemen are the most inaccurate melee profession, as Swordsmen correspondent I'm going to have to point out that a Powerhammer is far more inaccurate than an LVA these days. And I just don't think your Hit3 argument works given data on the delay modifier. These things are true whether I say them or not. You KNOW I've been very supportive of the Pikemen agenda so I hope you can look at it from the angle of trying to help you guys make good arguments.

Since I have holes in my arguement, show me the arguement I should use

I think that painting a defeatist, "we're the worst at everything", picture turns off the devs and doesn't make them want to listen to you. The change in accuracy mods did not come out of the rants about accuracy mods, it came out of a constructive conversation. I just think you should try to be honest about weaknesses AND strengths. This will help you best evaluate the areas that do need work and the arguments that are important to make.

As for arguments:

Right now Pikemen and Swordsmen both vie for a role as a heavy damage dealer. I would say that Swordsmen do come in a bit ahead of Pikemen in this area athough not because of hit3 or because of a comparison of the DPS on LVA's to Power Hammers This, I would argue, is a start on what Swordsmen and Pikemen want. Polling data and th In Concept threads show that both wish to be damage dealers, but Swordsmen feel more strongly that they should be oriented towards damage-dealing where Pikemen tend to focus a bit more on defense and crowd control.

The problem then is not so much that Pikeman damage is low but rather that isn't the best AND there is no other role in which Pikemen do excel. I would stress the big problems in Pikemen defense as I think these are much more clear cut than Hit3, for example. The problems with block and the very low toughness make Pikemen much worse off as tanks.

Like I said before, I'm not sure it's so much a question of how bad you are (although I agree that when it comes to defense you're in a bad way) as it is a matter of not being particularly great at anything. To stress that I think you'll have to lay off the blanket calls of "we're the worst". In many cases of those cases Swordsmen are worse off than you and that's why I mention that I think you're making a stronger argument for Swordsmen than Pikemen. I'm not saying that Swordsmen really do need the help more (although, believe it or not, we do have our share of problems), rather I'm saying that the way you are phrasing your argument is not making it clear to me that Pikemen do indeed need help.

I'm just saying play up the lack of a role. You don't need to convince the devs that you are the worst combat profession ever (and trying to do that isn't necessarily a good way to get attention -- in my experience the devs get used to that sort of stuff and stop listening in order to keep signal rate high). You just need to show them that you are lacking in some areas and that there aren't really compelling reasons to be a Pikeman.

Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-17-2004 03:42 PM

In every weapon tested, our Hit3 did less dps than our hit 2. Is that supposed to be right?

Swordsmen have the same problem. I believe other professions do as well.

Yesterday I had been thinking about writing a big thread about this (for reasons not at all to do with this thread). However this is about the general problem that specials don't necessarily ramp up that well for people who are not speed capped. That's different than saying that one Hit3 is worse than the other Hit3's which I'm not so sure is true.

StGabe.

Message Edited by StGabriel on 04-17-2004 03:44 PM

as was already stated tanking is where i think we should excel. I say leave everythign in the class alone except our toughness and kd/posture defenses(i knwo people will say who cares about posture but not everything that defines a character has to be usefull, this is what i think a pikeman should be and shoulc be reflected in numbers on the stat sheet no matter how useless eh ability is)

We are the brute, I see us as the guy who is unwaving in battle who no matter what you throw at him he will stand and fight untill dead. I dont want huge defenses damage will due(and we do have some good damage just not the best and fyi i think our hit3 is fixed).