Pikeman Archive
Thread: Melee defensive calculations (Updated)
antares_Kauri wrote:
I'm not denying that there are other factors to it. I agree, if you can kill something fast enough that it doesn't hit you much, then you're better off.But tell me, what is the biggest factor in PvP (since that's what this post was originally about)? Is it not defense? Defense of all sorts. You're not going to be fighting another player for 20-30 minutes like you might do in PvE...PvP fights are short and the better defenses has been key for the past many months.
By all means, feel free to quantify all the other factors and post your findings. Are fencer's defensive capabilities so far superior that they override any offensive advantage we have or not? Swordsmen have better offensive capabilities on top of better defensive capabilities. TKA have greater DPS capability under many circumstances and far superior defenses. Higher-end mobs are difficult to KD and often do require more time than a few hits worth to kill.
If you have 50% greater offensive capabilities than someone with 75% more defensive capabilities, then how will that work out? The defensive difference outweighs the offensive difference. Until I or someone else comes up with a better setup for offensive comparisons (I've already made a few in the past on DPS), it's a debatable question.
This data on it's own is by no means irrelevant. Especially for PvP.
antares
master pikeman
Your Right......somewhat, but even in PVP the time it takes to kill someone is drastically different. Whether it takes 10 seconds or 10 minutes (every fight is not equal even if the profession templates are), Offensive and defensive capabilities as well as the time, type of weapon, type of specials, armor, profession templates...etc will all change the amount of damage any one person takes and that's in PVE or PVP.
I believe we need to do the math on everything though.....maybe then we will see the bigger picture.....A broader test is needed to truely understand how everything ties into one another and drastically changes the final numbers. Just a small example to reiterate my point.......If I KD/Dizzy you (offensive moves), then during the time which you can't get up, I'm beating on you and you can't hit me. So even if you do have better defenses than me, I'm doing more damage to you than you are doing to me, even if it is for a short period. With all the defenses you have, being KD/dizzied will cause you to take double the damage. Also remember that even though you can have capped your stat defenses (assuming they cap), you always have a chance to be effected by them....the duration of them may change but still noone is totally immune to status effects no matter how high their defenses are......so KD/Dizzy combo is not only a offensive move, but defensive as well.....the greatest defense is one where your not getting hit at all.....and that's what KD/Dizzy does (the most used combo in PVP).
This is why more in depth test are needed beforet this issue can truely be of real help for us and the devs to be able to make proper changes.
Basically though, I don't give a damn who takes more damage as that can be changed by any of the factors I mentioned above....my goal is to finish any opponent off as fast as possible using any advantage I have......If I do that, it don't matter that pikes base defenses are lower than everyone else....Anyway, someone is always at the bottom and someones always at the top.....and yes sometimes someone is at the bottom or top in just about everything......pikes happen to be in that lower end....but I know one thing, as a master pike, I had no problem taking damage. Matter of fact, I got incapped and died more as a fencer than I ever did as a Pike....PVE or PVP. For me, it's all about how you use what you have to increase your advantage over your opponent no matter what you handicap is, if you don't know how to do that, then it's time you go get a mentor and learn what you need to know.
Antares, I would gladly help you do more extensive test....but unfortunately My main character is on Ahazi and my Kuari charcter isn't even a master of a novice profession...plus he's a crafter anyway....
Also, I don't want to seem ungreatful for the work you did here. I do appreciate it....I just think some issues were left out that's all. The data is important, but only really useful when you have the whole equation......but much respect to you though. Anything you can bring to thedevs and communities attention is always of important.
Message Edited by HardwiredXMan on 07-25-2004 10:08 AM
Great responses also.
For RP purposes I agree with the idea of giving pikeman a higher toughness. I think most people agree that pikeman are the heavy hitters of the melee class, they certainly have been designed as such in SWG.
I think the overall problem relates to the Attack vs Defense balance in every class.
Higher damage = extremely low defenses, commando for example.
Instead of scaling the defense modifiers in accordance with the max damage of our best weapon. Each class should focus more on the class specific types of defenses.
Improving not the effectiveness, but usefullness of block (adding state blocking) as well as pumping the toughness for pikeman would be a great start.
Pikeman: Strong, Slow, Heavy hitting, sturdy?
Ivon wrote:
you're not figuring that intimidate completely removes all cob/dodge/block, and that stun lowers melee/ranged defense... so... this would be a complete pve thing i think...
If intimidate really did completely negate, then it's just as bad, simply because of the combination of low melee defense and very low toughness. Not much change at all.
antares
antares_Kauri wrote:
Ivon wrote:
you're not figuring that intimidate completely removes all cob/dodge/block, and that stun lowers melee/ranged defense... so... this would be a complete pve thing i think...
If intimidate really did completely negate, then it's just as bad, simply because of the combination of low melee defense and very low toughness. Not much change at all.
antares
antares_Kauri wrote:
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughnessTKA: 62 melee defense / 45 ranged / 57 toughness05:40 AM
Yet on the TKA forums they whine they're the most underpowered since they can only do kinetic damage.
Yet on the fencer forums they whine they're the most underpowered since they don't have any armor piercing weapons.
Jeefus. If the devs give TKAs stun dmg knucklers or something, or give fencers an uber AP sword, you create a umbalancing / game-killing situation that would dwarf the imbalance we've seen Jedi create.
On all forums, even pikeman forum, you hear a lot of immature "I want the uberest everything, and with no costs or weaknesses! and I want it NOW!" rants. C'mon.
Pikeman needs radical rebalancing of defenses to be comparable with other profs. Period. The sooner the fabled combat revamp is pushed live the better.
But pikeman has a lot of upsides, or none of us would be here. I don't want to be TKA #2, or swordsman or god character with no weaknesses. That'd get real boring. Real fast.
Not that we are in much danger of the devs helping us that much, lol.
Just something for the FOTM pikeman whiners to think twice about before they make posts dissing our profession.
Message Edited by ShinyJedi on 08-19-2004 07:55 AM
ShinyJedi wrote:
antares_Kauri wrote:
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughness
TKA: 62 melee defense / 45 ranged / 57 toughness
05:40 AM
Yet on the TKA forums they whine they're the most underpowered since they can only do kinetic damage.
Yet on the fencer forums they whine they're the most underpowered since they don't have any armor piercing weapons.
Jeefus. If the devs give TKAs stun dmg knucklers or something, or give fencers an uber AP sword, you create a umbalancing / game-killing situation that would dwarf the imbalance we've seen Jedi create.
On all forums, even pikeman forum, you hear a lot of immature "I want the uberest everything, and with no costs or weaknesses! and I want it NOW!" rants. C'mon.
Pikeman needs radical rebalancing of defenses to be comparable with other profs. Period. The sooner the fabled combat revamp is pushed live the better.
But I don't want to be TKA #2
I fully agree, we just need our toughness mods in brawler adjusted and we'll do about as fine as TK, slower but more damaging.
Tk has no problems in PvP against armored opponents unless they have 90% comp (which is really annoying). Aside from that I found a very good way to deal with stunbattons, I don't wear armor. I got the fencer's panties in a twist right now since I found out that an intimidated/stunned fencer with a decent stunbatton was only doing 11 points of damage to little unarmored me
Stundamage is highly overrated.
Wow, are you telling me you take less dmg unarmored than armored in PvP?!!! Why would taking armor off help you? O.o
ShinyJedi wrote:
Hehe, you replied before I was done editing the post.
Wow, are you telling me you take less dmg unarmored than armored in PvP?!!! Why would taking armor off help you? O.o
Honestly I haveno idea at all, I was completely baffled when I checked my combat chat after the fight (it wasa semi friendly duel, fight club thingie).
I don't everPvP with armor, I hate wearing it to be honest. Granted I do die more than most but I can 'live' with that. In duels I'm often able to outlast fencers and other TKM because I have more stomach left to use for synth and the like while they are mindincapping themselveswhile their stomach is filled with Ahrissa or canape