Pikeman Archive
Thread: Current Pikeman Issues
skinner422
Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:29 pm
#53
PadreBook wrote:
antares_Kauri wrote:
Block stops 50%, the remaining 50% hit armor and toughness. Pikemen have 26 toughness. Swordsmen have 43 toughness, fencers have 32. Counterattack and dodge stop 100% of the incoming damage. How does this work out?
Against melee attacks:
If block/counterattack/dodge activated on 50% of the incoming attacks (assume this is after normalized melee defenses):
Swordsmen take 7% of the total damage output. (50% hit 43 toughness)
Fencers take 18% of the total damage output. (50% hit 32 toughness)
Pikemen take 30.5% of the total damage output. (50% hit 26 toughness AND 50% of 50% hit 26 toughness)
Against ranged attacks:
If block/counterattack/dodge activated on 50% of the incoming attacks (assume this is after normalized ranged defenses):
Swordsmen take 50% of the total damage output.
Fencers take 50% of the total damage output.
Pikemen take 75% of the total damage output.
That is a clear imbalance.
antares
master pikemanMessage Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-21-2004 04:49 PM
Uh oh, better call the Swordsman Correspondent over so he can shoot holes in any information that makes Swordsman look less weak than Pikeman.
Padre
Although this information looks to be correct, it's not taking everything into account. Melee and Ranged Defense play a big part in whether or not we get hit.
Pikeman 25 melee 20 range
Swordsman 20 melee 15 range
Fencer 74 melee 69 range
Teras Kasi 62 melee 45 range
All things being equal a swordsman would get hit more then fencer. Of course swordsmans would still get hit less then a pikeman. I think the easiest way to balance this out is not to give pikeman more defenses or make block like dodge/counterattack, they should just make the damage output on pikeman justify the lower defenses.
antares_Kauri
Fri Apr 23, 2004 3:44 pm
#54
Notice how I said melee/ranged defenses normalized. Imagine someone who had master swordsman/master fencer/master pikeman. Using each of the weapons, they would get hit in that pecentage amount. I also assumed that each of the 3 secondary defenses fired off at the same rate for these. It's a chart to show the inferiority of block incombination with toughness.
antares
master pikeman
Areriye
Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:42 am
#55
After playing pike/melee a bit more... I've come to this conclusion.
Pikemen should be a heavy hitting profession on the lower end of the defensive totem pole. (It is hard to be graceful with such a unweildly weapon, unlike a catlike fencer.) I am fine with having block asa defensive modifier (as it is weaker than dodge), but it seems strange only TKA (unless I am mistaken) gets defensive acuity mods. WereCQC fightersintended to dabble across the melee trees? There needs to be more accuracy mods higher in the pikeman tree. Our weapons have horrible accuracy. I'm looking at vibro axes and long vibro axes and wondering how I am going to level with such slow, inaccurate weapons. If pike is meant to be a profession for masters, fine.. then give us more accuracy to weild these things.
All in all, I like the profession so far... mastering brawler for the pike mods and intimidation and berserk enhancers.
antares_Kauri
Sat Apr 24, 2004 2:16 pm
#56
Ok...here's the run down, including melee/ranged defenses (I had some silly mistakes in the post on the previous page. I subtracted the toughness value directly instead of treating it as a % the way it is. This is correct now, though.):
Block stop 50% of incoming damage.
Counterattack/dodge stop 100% of incoming damage.
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughness
- Assume block/counterattack/dodge activate at a 50% rate for the sake of this comparison. In actuality, I haven't seen any real data showing that any of them activate more often than the other, although in practice it seems like dodge activates more often even outside CoB. For this, though, we'll assume they all activate at the same rate, say 50%.
- Assume the rest of the to-hit parameters are the same for each attack, i.e. posture of attacker/defender/food bonuses/weapon range mods/etc.
- Assume that the 50% of the time block/counter/dodge does not activate, that melee/ranged defenses play their part.
- Each point of melee/ranged defense amounts to a 0.5% reduction in to-hit chance, or effectively, being hit 0.5% less often.
Against melee attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 10% for melee defenses. The remaining 40% hit 43 toughness, reducing it to 57% of 40%.
Swordsmen take 22.8% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 37% for melee defenses. The remaining 13% hit 32 toughness, reducing it to 68% of 13%.
Fencers take 8.84% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 15% for melee defense. The remaning 50% of 50% stopped by block AND the remaining 35% hit 26 toughness.
Pikemen take 44.4% of the incoming damage.
Against ranged attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 7.5% for ranged defenses.
Swordsmen take 42.5% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 34.5% for ranged defenses.
Fencers take 15.5% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 12.5% for ranged defense. 50% of the 50% blocked goes through.
Pikemen take 62.5% of the incoming damage.
antares
master pikeman
Block stop 50% of incoming damage.
Counterattack/dodge stop 100% of incoming damage.
Pikemen: 30 melee defense / 25 ranged / 26 toughness
Swordsman: 20 melee defense / 15 ranged / 43 toughness
Fencer: 74 melee defense / 69 ranged / 32 toughness
- Assume block/counterattack/dodge activate at a 50% rate for the sake of this comparison. In actuality, I haven't seen any real data showing that any of them activate more often than the other, although in practice it seems like dodge activates more often even outside CoB. For this, though, we'll assume they all activate at the same rate, say 50%.
- Assume the rest of the to-hit parameters are the same for each attack, i.e. posture of attacker/defender/food bonuses/weapon range mods/etc.
- Assume that the 50% of the time block/counter/dodge does not activate, that melee/ranged defenses play their part.
- Each point of melee/ranged defense amounts to a 0.5% reduction in to-hit chance, or effectively, being hit 0.5% less often.
Against melee attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 10% for melee defenses. The remaining 40% hit 43 toughness, reducing it to 57% of 40%.
Swordsmen take 22.8% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 37% for melee defenses. The remaining 13% hit 32 toughness, reducing it to 68% of 13%.
Fencers take 8.84% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 15% for melee defense. The remaning 50% of 50% stopped by block AND the remaining 35% hit 26 toughness.
Pikemen take 44.4% of the incoming damage.
Against ranged attacks:
Swordsmen: 50% of incoming damage stopped by counterattack. The other 50% is reduced by 7.5% for ranged defenses.
Swordsmen take 42.5% of the incoming damage.
Fencers: 50% of incoming damage stopped by dodge. The other 50% is reduced by 34.5% for ranged defenses.
Fencers take 15.5% of the incoming damage.
Pikemen: 50% of incoming damage hits block. The other 50% is reduced by 12.5% for ranged defense. 50% of the 50% blocked goes through.
Pikemen take 62.5% of the incoming damage.
antares
master pikeman
Message Edited by antares_Kauri on 04-24-2004 02:54 PM
Areriye
Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:10 pm
#58
Frankly, I'd like to see more accuracy mods on the pikeman than extra defense. Defense can be dabbled easily enough, but our accuaracy is garbage. What the heck, devs?
antares_Kauri
Sat Apr 24, 2004 11:20 pm
#59
I'm beginning to wonder how things would be if we did get even more accuracy...we are no longer the most inaccurate profession, we do good damage, and at master can definitely manage in some way or another. We do not stand out in any one particular field and our defenses (mostly the toughness/block combination) are our large issues now it seems. We are not as broken as I see people mentioning in different posts. We used to be, but have slowly gained a few things here and there to make us passable.
With all our potentially-powerful reliablylooted weapons and the good damage we already do, I fear a backlash or some other effect that might come if we received things like more defenses or more accuracy or speed. We need to have something to stand out on, most definitely, but we want to be careful to not make ourselves too overpowered. If it wasn't for the DoT weapons, we would be one of the worst pvp professions in general, but with them, we are one of the best. Like a close-range CM with extra, powerful melee skills. I just don't want to see a backlash or any sort of overpoweredness. I hope the NS weapons don't come back to bite us in any way. I think it says something about the state of the profession if we have to rely on looted weapons to bring us up to par or above.
antares
master pikeman
ScDarkKnight
Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:37 am
#60
skinner422 wrote:
Although this information looks to be correct, it's not taking everything into account. Melee and Ranged Defense play a big part in whether or not we get hit.
Pikeman 25 melee 20 range
Swordsman 20 melee 15 range
Fencer 74 melee 69 range
Teras Kasi 62 melee 45 range
All things being equal a swordsman would get hit more then fencer. Of course swordsmans would still get hit less then a pikeman. I think the easiest way to balance this out is not to give pikeman more defenses or make block like dodge/counterattack, they should just make the damage output on pikeman justify the lower defenses.
Let's add
Rifleman 40 melee 70 ranged
lmao ...
Oh and ... Excellent work Antares =P as usual huh
Areriye
Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:39 am
#61
antares_Kauri wrote:
We need to have something to stand out on, most definitely, but we want to be careful to not make ourselves too overpowered.
I totally agree.
If you imagine a pike in concept, however, they are the most unweildly weapons to use. If you compare a standard long axe to a rapier or katana, it is harder to swing, more difficult to defend yourself by countering or moving out of the way and it is easier to avoid being hit by such a weapon.
But they should certainly be the most damaging weapon and someone proficient with such a weapon should grow in the ability to swing accurately and block incoming attacks.
Personally, I don't mind Block so much. I think it works with the concept, but I would like to see the accuracy mods spread out more. At novice, I'm having a challenge leveling up using a standard Vibro Axe because of the -15 accuracy at every level. I do a lot of damage when I hit, but I burn a lot of meds and HAM just using specials to survive a bit longer. I just wish I had some accuracy bonuses to look forward to besides +20 at master.
It would be cool if there were staff based weapons available at pikeman. I mean, we train using polearms, which is conceptually a faster, more accurate weapon with less damage (and no AP). It would make training pikeman a hair less painful. I mean, there is really no sense in having metal staff and the combat staff on the same block... drop the combat staff, improve the stats and put it on the pikeman tree. I'll settle for no AP for a 'training' weapon of sorts that is actually viable against higher end mobs.
Areriye
Sun Apr 25, 2004 1:19 pm
#62
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=csystems&message.id=20410
Comment in this thread please. Pikemen need to be heard on the block issue in comparison to counterattack and doge.
Daros
Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:09 pm
#63
antares_Kauri wrote:
With all our potentially-powerful reliablylooted weapons and the good damage we already do, I fear a backlash or some other effect that might come if we received things like more defenses or more accuracy or speed. We need to have something to stand out on, most definitely, but we want to be careful to not make ourselves too overpowered. If it wasn't for the DoT weapons, we would be one of the worst pvp professions in general, but with them, we are one of the best. Like a close-range CM with extra, powerful melee skills. I just don't want to see a backlash or any sort of overpoweredness. I hope the NS weapons don't come back to bite us in any way. I think it says something about the state of the profession if we have to rely on looted weapons to bring us up to par or above.
antares
master pikeman
I have the feeling we'll be seeing a CM nerf soon (adjusting their damage down in PvP)... shortly after (or at the same time) will be the adjustment for DoT weapons. As it is now, the poisons really are too powerful in PvP (though, their use in PvE can be very debated). I also think that would address any problems with us being "overpowered."
Mindless rambling 
antares_Kauri
Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:27 pm
#64
I don't look forward to any changes being made to the DoTs on the polearms, though. I have to admit that the major way I win pvp battles as a pikeman is through the DoTs, otherwise, we would once again hold the position of one of the worst pvp professions with little to help the situation.
antares
master pikeman
OutbackWookiee
Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:45 pm
#65
antares_Kauri wrote:
I don't look forward to any changes being made to the DoTs on the polearms, though. I have to admit that the major way I win pvp battles as a pikeman is through the DoTs, otherwise, we would once again hold the position of one of the worst pvp professions with little to help the situation.
antares
master pikeman
Yeah, what he said.
You know, you might as wellwrite me in with a /agree with everything that Antares says.
He expresses pretty much everything I feel but without the obnoxiousness or pomposity.