Pikeman Archive
Thread: Pikeman Concerns
Kreepywookie wrote:
i think that many of the people in this forum dont quite get what a "pikemen is" traditionally they are the most defencive thing in an army they were ment to dig in for when cavalry came and fend off lots of attackers.
i belive that pikemen should get abilities that suit there weapon like a "fend off " ability where u have a % chance to hold a opponent at the max range of your weapon, dealing less damage but making it very hardfor the enemy to get a hitdue to the range. Also i beleive that pikeman/women need a "defencive stance" ability warese they can fend off multiple enemies at increased defence but slowing his/her attack rate down alot.
thats my two bits i just think that pikemen should focus more on keeping there enemy away from them and using the increased rage of there weapons to an advantage
Exactly. I picked pikeman because I wanted to be a defensive fighter, not do massive damage (I would have picked heavy swordsman for that).
I'm not sure how well a defensive fighter would mesh with the current XP system, though.
My other issues:
- Toughness (should be consistent with other brawler professions, if not better - or explicitly explained why it's not)
- Weapon diversity. We'd all like to see more, and it'd be nice to have the certifcations spread out more so we always have new weapons to look forward to.
- Empty skill boxes. None of them are actually empty, but many contain only 1 stat increase or new special move. They just don't seem as exciting as the ones with a whole bunch of smaller bonuses.
Problem: HAM costs are far too high on vibro polearms. This renders many special attacks too costly to use.
Solution: Significantly reduce HAM costs on vibro polearms.
Problem: Range modifiers are far too negative on vibro polearms.
Solution: Significantly reduce range penalties on vibro polearms.
Problem: Pikemen, and melee fighters in general, take far too much melee damage to effectively fulfill their combat roles.
Solutions:
a) Greatly increase effectiveness of all types of armor. Do this by increasing the damage absorbed, reducing the HAM penalties, and adding certification modifiers for these changes that only apply to brawler professions.
b) Greatly incrase polearm toughness as well as melee damage reduction modifiers throughout the pikeman skill tree.
Problem: Pikemen, and melee fighters in general, are useless when fighting intelligent opponents possessing ranged attacks. Even when melee fighters "get the jump" on ranged combatants, as another poster put it, our combat effectiveness is over if the ranged combatant decides to run.
Solutions:
a) Write more efficient code that better relays positions of others so that chase may be made before the opponent is 20m away on the server, yet still 2m away on my screen.
b) Upgrade existing servers and/or network connections to remove this lag.
c) Increase the effectiveness of lunge and sweep attacks by increasing their range and reducing their recovery time for the user prior to initiating another attack.
d) Increase run speed of brawler profesions.
As for your opinion that the developers are wise, if that were the case, we would have no concerns to voice.
Just thought I would weigh in on something that I saw as a problem when first starting the game. I'm not quite sure how relevant this is anymore, or even if it has been changed since we all first started playing, but it's something that seemed a little unusual to me and affected one other line of melee users as well. Why do brawlers only start with one basic certification for a survival knife which only gives experience for one handed weapons? I understand that most of us are well past this point by now, but does anyone remember what a pain it was just trying to get enough experience to become a level 1 in our chosen profession. This design decicion seems a little strange to me as it penalizes people who wish to pursue a pikeman or 2h weapon player right out of the gate.
I mean ranged weapons have cdefs for each type of ranged weapon. Why don't brawlers get a cdef pike and a cdef axe or some such which could be used to do more than 10 pts of damage to a newbie mob *IF* you hit. That 1000 xp sure took me a long time to get, in fact I wound up swinging away with the survival knife to get that first level in 1h weapons just so I could initiate combat with my wooden staff then after swinging away for 15 minutes when I start to get close to being incapped by that gnort, I could switch to survival knife and eek out a small victory for a grand total of 20xp.
This is not to say there aren't other perhaps more pressing issues (ham costs, defensive bonuses) but this certainly seems like a tremendous obstacle for new players who may be interested in pursuing pikes, but get turned off very fast when they find out its going to be quite some time before they can hit for the full potential of their wooden stick.
Although, I must admit I feel a little joy in knowing that it was difficult to work up to the first skill box, and was soooooo satisfied with that first real swing of the staff brought down on that gnorts previously uncrushed skull. But feel that it is a bit unfair that people new to the game would be penalized so for wanting to try one of the more unique combat professions.
On a side note if you pick up novice entertainer and leave your weapon equipped as you dance it looks extremely cool. Almost like a martial arts performance with your staff weaving around in the air, if they would just make it so objects could collide with each other so all the patrons in the cantina have a reason to duck when you put on a show.
Vash Corinth
Novice Pikeman
Radiant Server
KreepyWookie makes some great points that would definitely provide a Pike(wo)man with abilities/benefits that reflect not only the weapons used, but the intended defensive fighting style. Kudos to that, and I throw my two cents in with his.
Now to other points, I definitely am having a tough time being incapped now and again by what feel like easy foes. (blues etc.). Not sure if it's my use of armor, i've tried with and without, and partial and nothing seems to help me "stick around longer" in a battle, especially when swarmed. I gotta admit, I don't follow a lot of how this works, how that works, + this, - that, but losing more than half my health when surrounded by a bunch of Gorgs just doesn't make sense. I gotta be doing something wrong. I find polearmhit1 and stunhit1 to be the only useful skills at this point. The weapon i'm using is just a standard run-of-the-mill lance.
Weapon availability is atrocious. Can't seem to find anything in the realm of what you guys are talking about, on the Kauri server. I've never seen a Lance over 130 max damage, with a minimum of something like 6?. Not sure where I'll need to go to find better lances, and anything 'Vibro' just doesn't seem to exist yet. Taking a look at the making it a tad easier to create vibro units would be welcomed.
- Exuro Aether
Apprentice Pikeman
Bestine - Tatooine - Kauri Galaxy
VIBRO WEAPONS AND SPECIAL HAM COSTS. Lets compare a Lance and a Vibrolance. Top of the line, non-sliced. Lance:24-259 3.8spd -Vibrolance: 71-263dmg 4.3spd. The lance's damage/second (avg dmg/spd) is 37.2 - the vibrolance's is 38.8. The difference isslightly in favor of the Vibrolance. Combined with the vibrolance's armor piercing ability, this edge makes the vibrolance a more damaging weapon in all circumstances, if not by an impressive amount. The only problem is the difference in HAM costs. Vibrolances have a much higher HAM cost than lances. Vibrolance: 52/76/25 - Lance: 29/58/32. If anything, the vibrolance should be easier to use. I quote from the description of vibroweapons: "A powered weapon that vibrates rapidly on impact dramatically increasing the amount of damage deliveredwhileminimizing the effort required by the wielder." This idea is reflected in vibroblades VS ryyk blades for example, but not in vibrolances VS lances.
STAT POINTS GAINED AS A PIKEMAN. The toughness issue has been addressed, but look at a spreadsheet comparison of all stats gained by the 4 elite brawling classes. Admittedly, I don't know how these stats are applied, but on a purely quantitative basis, it's fairly obvious that pikeman and 2hand swordsmen really get the short end of the stick.
http://www.datacruz.com/~madmartagan/SWG/brawler.html
PVP. I don't have as much trouble killing marksmen as most pikemen apparently do, as I am also a master brawler. Lunge2 helps a LOT with stopping a running marksman. However, I still believe that marksmen have a very unfair advantage in the form of attacks that inflict Bleeding (sap shots). A smart marksman with a droid or some pets will order their minions to attack at range, use a sap shot until they get a hit, and then run away from you until you bleed to death or are killed by their pets. There's really nothing you can do except die and try to take some pets with you. Bleeding generally does 400+dmg initially, which is typically 40-50% of a HAM pool. I'm a master medic as well, and although I usually kill marksmen (most are not smart enough to just run and keep running), I usually either die to bleeding, or die when they come find me in the med center or cantina with no mind pool left from stim'ing and first aid'ing repeatedly. Pikemen get some wounding attacks, which are next to worthless for us. We get few enough hits in as it is, and wasting one trying to wound someone's action pool is suicidal at best. I would propose that brawlers be given bleeding attacks and marksmen wounding. That way, brawlers could still do damage if marksmen try to kite. Also, brawlers are obviously not able to use the sure-victory bleed and kite tactic against marksmen. It could be a problem against other brawlers, but not nearly as pronounced. Either way, bleeding damage needs a BIG nerf in PVP. 400+ is insane.
PVE. This goes along with my first and second qualms. Pikemen are completely secondary to TKA's. I have master stances (close to max speed) and a TKA acquaintence of mine has master power (close to max speed). He attacks with top of the line knucklers using knockdown2 (a special move that knocks a mob down while inflicting good damage) and unarmedhit2 roughly twice as fast as I hit with a 3.8spd 34-330dmg Lance while using Berserk2. We do roughly the same damage per hit (he hits more consistently in the middle, I hit harder and softer). If he uses berserk1 instead of special moves that have speed penalties, he hits over 3 times as fast as I do and for roughly the same damage. It's rediculous. I wouldn't care as much if we had some kind of super attribute or ability beyond what TKA's have, but with superior defensive stats, meditate, and better damage, it's more than a little out of balance. This could be balanced by giving pikeman skillpoints, making our high end weapons better, or by nerfing TKA's appropriately. Of all of these I would prefer giving pikeman skillpoints higher up in the pikeman tree. This prevents TKA whining, which would be almost unbearable, and it also prevents making supermen out of novice pikeman who can wreak havoc with their vibrolance certification and minimal committment.
HYBRID PROFESSIONS. Where are they? I assume we will see some eventually that have master polearm/1hand/2hand as a requisite, or maybe even master brawler, but at this point, the only reason to get weapon based skills is to fight with them exclusively. We'd like to be able to pick up some hybrid profession without having to go completely out of the way too.
If there are not going to be any hybrid professions, then these deadend combat professions need to be worth it. As of now, they are not. We'll continue to play them anyway because we're all gluttons for punishment and enjoy whining, obviously (or so all my TKA friends tell me).
Higgs Par'teckal - Lowca
ExuroAether, there are at least SOME vibro lances on the kauri server. But from what I have seen they are not nearly as good as the ones these guys have. All though I'm sure there are better ones than the one i have, I have only heard of one vendor so I rushed to tatoonie to buy it. I THINK his name was lothan, but I am not sure. The weapon is about 63-223 damage with a speed of about 4.8.....and it is best not to think about the HAM costs and range modifiers. Both atrocious. I bet each server has at least some of every matirial there is. Maybe people just arn't looking in the right places. I mean, how many people survey on dathomir?
If that guy's name isn't right or you can' get ahold of him, I am Ark. Just /tell me.
As far as my concerns for pikeman go.....ummm.....
How the hell does a 'blaster' make anyone bleed?
It should singe, it should burn, but an open wound? Noooo.....
This I'm sure is too late to incorperate into the game.....
but i think that attacks like bleeding and wounding and should be weapon sensitive.....
blasters should not be able to make people bleed anymore than any other weapon in the game. Only peircing weapons should. Like swords, knifes, and lances. Blasters, staffs, and hand-to-hand, should all have an inherent knockdown, wound, or dizzy effect in each attack.
Like each weapon has percentages for doing any of these attacks entered into each of its normal attacks.
So it isn't forced. but by equipping a 'sharper' weapon you can be more likely to enflict bleed and wound.
this would also open up more variables in the weapons.
ALSO any spin or area attacks should be faster. Do they not understand that when I am using those attacks, that I am surrounded and being eaten alive be a group of something. the last thing i need is to go slower. Especialy when I miss half of them each swing.
Something I noticed happen in the game too(might be a glitch), is that when using spin attacks, I often hit the person(or thing) that I am directing the attack torwards. But everything else in my attack radius just has a +Head Hit+, or +Body hit+, or +Leg Hit+, float above there head but NO damage is done. It dosen't say 'miss', but no damage is done and no numbers appear ove their head. I have noticed 'lag' when using spin attacks and thought it was this at first. but no amount of waiting would make their health catch up.
i have talked far too long as it is. So thanks. and bye.
I have talked with SOE and am awaiting a response. When I get one, I will post it in the other thread.
Here is the main thing I brought up:
Toughness, it was a big issue on the board so it deserved the most attention.
The certs for Vibro Lance and Long Vibro Axe.
HAM Costs on weapons.
Knockdown in PvP combat...
And the Idea for "Jousting" on animals/vehicles (Episode II has pikeman on top of animals attacking Obiwan, Anikan, and Padame, so they just might add it!) 
If I did not dress your concern, it is because I am limited to only a few for each msg to SOE. I will get them all soon.
Great posts guys, keep up the good work
Khrim....
Ok. After getting a few more skillboxes in the actual Pikeman tree I have run into a REALLY annoying problem and I Think I can verbalize it now. When fighting Fambaas (or any Physically HUGE monster), they apparently have some sort of "lets make the combat look pretty code" that makes them back up from the person they are focusing their aggression on. For example,
1) I rush the Fambaa.
2) I then start attacking it at lets say 3meters away.
3) After a hit or 2 (me really making it mad and it trying to chew my lekku) it directs it's attention towards me and then backs up a few meters. 7 times in 10 it backs up to about 9.1 Meters away and then I am out of range, but he is still chewing on me.
4) At this point I advance to get back in range.
5) Go back to step go back to step 3.
So by the end of the battle I am about 60-80 meters away from where it started and the poor group I am with has to keep following as well. To top it off, since the polearm speed is so slow (not complaining about that), If I do any speacials I am immobilized until the special attack animation is doneso the fambaa gets an extra hit or 2 in on me while I am waiting for the momentem of my pike to stop.
Ok I lied. There are 2 issues. The second one is more cosmetic. What is my total to hit penalty? The little hit modifier in the targetting box caps at -50, but my Long Vibro Axe itself has a -59. It would be nice to use that box for what it was designed for: a quick glance to see how often I am gonna miss the mob. Granted, I will miss a lot with a Long VIbro Axe until I can hit Master, but it would still be nice to see the Real Number instead of a cap.
Just thoughts. As I find the words for the "quirks" in the class, I will continue to post them.
Zheee
Ahazi
as i move further up the tree i am getting more annoyed... mainly in the confirmation of what has already been posted here. my 'new' concern is more of why a tank is better off not wearing armor?
for group work, i am finding that wearing full chitin and berserking is working ok. i hold aggro and don't kill myself by using styles. but, oooooo, let me tell you how much fun that is. find target, berserk, watch... find target, refresh berserk, watch...
Armor encumberence is currently retarded.
The system they used in beta3 actually made sense and gave armor some general purpose usefulness. I still don't know why they changed it. I made some posts about it on the discussions forum and was basically told that there were bigger problems to solve atm.
I currently wear chitin boots and mabari gloves for general purpose. I have a bone helmet and chestplate optimized for energy resist and encumberence I use in PVP vs riflemen/pistoleers.
Using large amounts ofarmor for extended fighting, especially if you're using special moves, is suicidal at best.
Stock up on the stat clothes, I don't see this being addressed any time soon.
Where to start? Pikeman is one broken class that needs some serrious attention, but isn't getting any.
-PROBLEMS-
1. HAM cost - WAY to high
2. Block ?!? what block poles arms are awesome deffensive weapons everywhere but in SWG
3. Toughness issue
4. Action hits - great now give me something I can use. The offense tree is only good for getting master
5. Weapons - when i would rather use a basic lance than the supposed best polearm weapon, Vibro Lance, there is a big problem
6. Accuracy - needless to say this BLOWS
7. Lack of Dev. response to pikeman concerns IF NOTHING ELSE GETS FIXED MAKE SURE THIS DOES i at least want to hear the reasoning behind their choices for my proffesion
Boon, Lowca
Please tell a Dev to make a the same character (same race stats etc.)on 4 servers and then choose a melee class for each. Go fight some stuff for 3 boxes and they will see that Pikeman are the weakest of the bunch.
Unless they are going to give us the abillity to Joust with our lances from a speeder or dewback then they realy need to ballance this class.
All the faults are very obvious so report them and report back please how long does it take to do that ?