Pikeman Archive
Thread: State of Pikemen.
OpethRebel wrote:
If you guys think a meandering 5 page report will help you more than what I've written, I can easily do that for you. My rule as a writer is totry to bebe as clear and concise as possible. I will break that rule and rewrite the state of profession if you think it would do a better job than what I've already written. Believe me though, it takes more effort to write a short letter than it does a long one.
Our supervisor, Thunderheart, told us not to write an essay for this.
Please remember that this is not the final opportunity for getting our profession fixed. Quite the opposite, it has been made clear that this is the starting point. A place for us to set a reference point for how to approach fixing this profession. How are pikeman doing in SWG? What needs to be addressed? "We're gimpy, fix us," simply doesn't work for developers who are trying to help us,so the correspondents were asked to write SoP's to summarize the situation of each profession.
As I understood the task, this report wasn't to be about specifics and detailed solutions (we'll get to those as the developers start addressing the individual issues put forth here), but about the general issues we face.
LordBaryon, you have some good ideas about how to make accuracy and to-hit modifiers more interesting and dynamic. When we get to the point where our developer is addressing accuracy, I willdefinitely pass along your input.
Fair enough. That was an excellent response OpethRebel. If I have any more input on how to do class fixes I will surely post them here. I also encourage the other players to creatively think of fixes.
One thing I would also like to see is more of a variety of weapons. Maybe some sort of pikes that do electrical or heat damage. I think a pike glowing red with heat or a lance showing electrical discharges would be awesome. Or a pike with an extra canister on it that keeps the blade end continuously covered in acid.
Until then I will wait patiently
OpethRebel-once again thank you for taking time out of your gameplay to correspond with the devs for us.
Cymek
Intrepid
I am one of the many who will be Mastering Pikeman simply because that's what the Holo said to do. At first I was a little disappointed, but after reviewing the profession I quickly managed to create a template that would work well with Master Pistoleer... which I don't see myself dropping. Instead I choose to drop Doctor.
That said, I hope I'm not encroaching when I bring a Pistoleer's thoughts to this thread.TheState of the Professionmentions the uniqueness of the skill "disarming shot" and also the uniqueness of the names of "Multi-target" and "Disarming Shot 2." I'd just like to point out that none of those skills work, flowery names or not. Disarming Shot would be a really unique skill, if it did anything.
Also,the State of the Professionmentions having inferior defensive mods.For Pikeman I see:
+40 vs Dizzy
+30 vs Stun
+20 vs Blind
+20 vs KD
+30 vs Posture change
+20 Melee def
+15 Ranged def
(plus Block, questions to whether it is working)
A TKA receives:
+5 vs Dizzy
+15 vs Stun
+10 vs Blind
+20 vs KD
+30 vs Posture change
+32 Melee def (including +2 received in Unarmed IV [Brawler])
+30 Ranged def
As a Pistoleer I have:
+20 vs Dizzy
+20 vs Stun
+20 vs Blind
+30 vs KD
+20 vs Posture change
+13 Melee def
+7 Ranged def
(plus Dodge, there are questions as to whether it is working)
I think Pikeman is actually superior when it comes to defensive mods. I especially like the fact that good chunks of them are attained at Master, so that dabblers can't just go up one tree to get all of the profession's mods. With Pistoleer, you could go up one tree and have not only all our defensive mods, but also our 2 best Offensive specials (Fanshot and Stopping Shot).
Couldsomebody explain whatis meant by saying Pikemen have inferior defensive mods?If itsaid you have inferior Melee and Ranged defensive mods to the TKA, and that would work... except the difference is made up in other mods.
Also could somebody explain to me what "Unarmed Toughness" is for TKA and what "Polearm Toughness" is for Pikeman? I don't understand what they do/mean.
Thanks!
My apologies, I must have read the post wrong at first. You mention being low on toughness compared to other melee.. when I was writing my reply I was thinking you meant Pikemanhad inferior defensive mods toother classes.My own ignorance regarding what "Polearm Toughness" really does for you is the cause of this.
Clarification would be great.
OpethRebel wrote:
In fact, the opposite seems to be true: to make up for having poorer accuracy, we were given less powerful damage modifiers on our specials, and the worst defensive mods.
Actually you did say that, I just couldn't find it when I read it the 2nd time. You claim to have the worst defensive mods, please explain. See my earlier post for comparisons between Pikeman, TKA, and Pistoleer.
Thanks!
Wow, I don't appreciate having to defend the Pikeman gimpinessto a pistoleer who has obviously never played a melee character. ...But here goes:
"I'd just like to point out that none of those skills work, flowery names or not. Disarming Shot would be a really unique skill, if it did anything."
Unique skills were put in for the ranged professions, 3 out of 4 of melee professions have no unique skills. That is the issue.
It's illogical to argue that because Disarming Shot is currently broken,other classesshouldn't have unique skills. That reasoning serves no use other than to hold back any game improvements. I really don't see why you would mention this.
It's laughable that you left out some hugely important numbers when comparing Pikemen to TKA. I don't think you could find a TK or Pikeman on any server who would agree with you that, "Pikeman is actually superior when it comes to defensive mods."
TKM gets +57 unarmed toughness, Master Pikeman gets +26 toughness. That is a percent decrease in melee damage received.
You also conveniently failed to mention TKM's +55 equilibrium.
With the exception of toughness, every defensive mod is in question--not just dodge and block, butv. Dizzy, v. KD etc. None of them appear to work.It's nice that you only used that as an excuse when you came to a pistoleer defensiveadvantage: Pistoleer has +30 dodge compared to Pikemen with +20 block.
Finally, my report was not intended to compare ranged with melee. The fact that you can attack creatures from well beyond their melee range is a defensive advantage greater than any of the mods we have.
At least in my opinion, our defense vs. state mods don't really do anything. A TKA has never hit me with unarmed knockdown and not knocked me over. A Fencer has never hit me with one-handed dizzy one and failed to make me dizzy. Another pikeman has never hit me with polearm stun 1 and not stunned me. If maybe the defense mods actually did something, I wouldn't be too sad with having worse melee/ranged/toughness than the other classes.
OpethRebel wrote:
Wow, I don't appreciate having to defend the Pikeman gimpinessto a pistoleer who has obviously never played a melee character. ...But here goes:
I don't appreciate the tone you have taken with this. From the start you show your immaturity and lack of any professional or rational thought. It'sdisheartening that I will have you as my correspondent when I begin my trek up the Pikeman ladder.
Let me help you out, this is how you could have began: "hello defiler, I'm glad we will have another player joining our profession. Welcome! Now, let me answer your questions." Even if I was rude (I was not) and you were offended (you shouldn't have been), that is how you should have replied. You are a representative for an entire profession, act like it.
It's illogical to argue that because Disarming Shot is currently broken,other classesshouldn't have unique skills. That reasoning serves no use other than to hold back any game improvements. I really don't see why you would mention this.
Nowhere did I say the Pikeman should not have any unique skills. I simply pointed out the fact that you were mentioning skills that do absolutely nothing as examples of unique skills. That sir, is illogical. If it does not work, how is that unique in SWG? In fact, that's the norm.
It's laughable that you left out some hugely important numbers when comparing Pikemen to TKA. I don't think you could find a TK or Pikeman on any server who would agree with you that, "Pikeman is actually superior when it comes to defensive mods."
TKM gets +57 unarmed toughness, Master Pikeman gets +26 toughness. That is a percent decrease in melee damage received.
You also conveniently failed to mention TKM's +55 equilibrium.
I stated in my posts that I did not understand what "Polearm Toughness" and "Unarmed Toughness" meant. Thank you for clarifying that for me, very nice of you to do it without being condescending and rude (cough). Even if TKM gets more "toughness," the Pikeman modsare still not inferior. One of the most powerful offensive combinations in this game involves KD+Dizzy. The Pikeman issuperior in his or her defense to that combo, and I'm sure many TKMs would gladly trade some "toughness" to get those mods. It really depends on the style of play, a PvP TK would want better Dizzy and KD defense, a wanna-be PvE tank would prefer the toughness... and I can make that conclusion easily off what you defined it as.
Also, defenses to KD do work. Run some tests before you dismiss them as broken. Try to KD somebody with +30 or +20 KD defense and then somebody with no KD defense. Compare the results after many tests and you will see youhave a working skill mod. As for mentioning that Dodge is broken... I did that because I mentioned (in fairness) that Block is broken. If I had left those comments off, the first thing you would have flamed me on is "BLOCK DOESN'T WORK!!! YOU OBVIOUSLY NEVER PLAYED A PIKEMAN!!!"
I made 1 simple point and had 2 questions. My point was that if you are referring to skills from other professions as being unique, you should make sure they are working first. It can't be unique if it's broken. My point was not that the Pikeman doesn't deserve unique skills, because the ones a Pistoleer gets are broken.
My questions were:
1) How do you conclude that Pikeman has inferior defensive mods compared to other classes?
You did not answer this in any manner except to say that you have less toughness than TKA and they also get +55 Equilibrium. Youbasically tried to make me look like a fool for even questioning it. I still say Pikeman has some of the best defensive mods in the game, despite the disparity in toughness between TKA. Also, your original post declares you have the worst defensive mods. It doesn't say anything about being inferior to just the TKA or even other melee classes. You made a general declaration that the Pikeman has the worst defensive mods.You failed miserably in answering my question.
2) What does "Polearm Toughness" and "Unarmed Toughness" mean/do?
You answered this in a very polite manner(cough) and thanks! Kudos!
Finally, my report was not intended to compare ranged with melee. The fact that you can attack creatures from well beyond their melee range is a defensive advantage greater than any of the mods we have.
Your report started with:
Ranged > Melee
That's what most people would call a comparison. You truly are an interesting person. And the fact that you go on to say that it is acceptable that ranged players are better would be enough for me to not want you representing the melee class. That's a horrible stance to take.
I can see now why the Pikeman might be in bad shape overall with no help in sight, with somebody like you as the correspondent. I only hope you are replaced quickly, so that I don't have you representing a profession I will be in. I appreciate the fact that a correspondent is a volunteer, but that doesn't give you any special rights to spit on somebody with questions. My questions were related to YOUR post in THIS thread, so I posted them in this thread. I'm sorry if you are offended just because a "Pistoleer" came along and criticized you. Get over yourself already!
Gunman21 wrote:
Defiler, do not come to our boards and insult our correspondent who has done an excellent job thus far because you dissagree with him. You are the one being rude in your post. Opeth had every right to respond to you the way he did and I commend him for it.
Opeth is doing everything he needs to be doing, and he's doing it **edit** well. You have not ever been a melee, you do not know that resistances are working, or that a lot of TKA would switch toughness for resistances....because the fact reamains that any experienced melee person will tell you that toughness is one of the most important modifiers a melee player can have.
You also -assume- that we haven't taken all of the mods from each melee and compared them. Find antares' post and look at the chart....you will clearly see that we do indeed have the lowest mods of the melee classes...you may remove your foot from your mouth now.
I did not insult the correspondent because I disagree with him. You should invest in some glasses, my original posts were not attacks on anyone. I simply asked questions, and was ridiculed by your precious correspondent. I would not have come here if I did not have an interest in Pikeman. I made it clear in my posts that I did not understand how Toughness works, that was one of my questions. You both are pathetic, I'm sorry I tried to understand by asking questions. Next time I'll find someone who posts rationally and direct my questions at them.
Once again, get over yourselves.
Just something to consider when thinking about pike (and melee in general) range:
I discovered something very interesting about range last night, which only strengthened my belief that range needs to be looked at.
I am trying to get through my last pike box before master and was hunting Tortons on Rori. The things are decent xp but annoying as heck because they are perpetually out of range. A friend of mine (a 2 hanged swordsman) was with me and said he has tried to eyeball the range, seeing as we kept getting the "your target is out of range" message while nose to nose with the torton and pretty much have to be standing under then to hit.
It seems that the distance one is from the creature is measured from the center of the creature, therefore if it is more than 8m from the center of the creature to the nose we do have to be actually under it to be within range. The actual range of the creature's attack seems to be measured from the front of the creature to the center of the player, leaving the ranges (unintentionally, I assume) overlapping.
This doesn't have any affect on PvP, but for any vaguely horizontal PvE creature that is more than 10m-ish long it in effect gives the mob a short range attack and puts melee at a real disadvantage.
antares
master pikeman