Musician Archive
Thread: Feedback needed Jukebox Player Event Perk
NewJedi
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:22 pm
#79
Well, I've barely played any SWG at all since retiring as Correspondent, so I'm not up on the times. But I have to say that this jukebox idea depresses me. Why not put all that effort and music into new songs for us? New songs, new songs, new songs: that's what Musicians need. We're the ones who need 29 tracks. Actually, more like 50 or 100 tracks. Imagine a fantasy world in which we could play far more tunes than one could possibly hear at one party. People would actually make *requests*. Bands actually would have different repertoires.
I suppose it's true that the jukebox might not hurt us much -- that people don't want canned music at real parties. Maybe not. I still find it depressing.
Incidentally, anyone know why I was kicked off Blue Glowie Island? I've PM'd Tiggs about it.
DarkY0da
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:26 pm
#80
We believe it was because they found out you were drinking all the Stock piled drinks...
Xyrdre
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:29 pm
#81
I'm tellin' ya... don't break into the Glowie Island liquor cabinets.... 
Seriously though... NJ, I PM'd you withmy best guess about it. We haven't heard anything in there regarding glowie status changes. Try poking Tiggs again, I guess.
Xyrdre
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:39 pm
#82
Oh, and btw... there is a Player Event Perk Discussion thread in the Events forum for... discussing what you think about the Player Event Perks, obviously. 
Esharra
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:49 pm
#83
I'm still so blown away that they implemented it the way they did. Itcompels me to wonder just how many coding hours have been wasted on design concepts of questionable sanity.
LyteFoot wrote:
The solution is simple don't code it as a microphone, it is afterall code not physical hardware.
Warryyr
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:55 pm
#84
First off, before anything else, Musicians need more songs. I think our disappointment with the Jukebox was that we want just that - more new songs - and the thing that got it was a Terminal. If the new songs didn't come to us, we then were further upset that we didn't even have a part in any new songs. Musicians need more songs. Bottom line.
Anyways, here's away to make us involved in the creation of Jukeboxes:
1) The creation of music disks featuring current Musician songs seems somewhat fruitless, as most players have heard our songs countless times (given how many buffs are received from combat players on average, or how many events people have heard our songs at), and the current Jukebox fare is far superior to anything we can play anyways (and new music is good music). It might be kind of complicated anyways, to be able to truly "record" your flourishes and stuff for a disk to reproduce. Not sure how complicated that'd be to code in the game, but it might be a bit much. Besides, if someone wants to hear the current Musician songs, they can get some live Musicians to play it.
I think that upon completion of an Entertainer mission, a random "music disk"could beplaced in your inventory. This would add some value to Entertainer missions beyond the recently increased payouts (which at around 1k a pop are still a bit on the low side, given the time commitment of 10 minutes per mission). The music disk that is placed in your inventory is a random song. The Entertainer must then preparethe track for use in a Jukebox. More missions means more music disks, which means more of a chance to get a rare, cool song that few others have in their Jukeboxes! This, of course, demands a big influx of available songs for Jukeboxes. There's a lot of Star Wars music out there, so I don't think that'll be a problem, with a dedicated effort of getting those into the game. Given the rarity of the song, it'll be given a level. A level 1 song is pretty common. A level 10 song is ultra-rare. There should be several songs per level.
Level 1- 5 songs can be prepared by a Novice Entertainer. A Level 6 - 10 disk can beprepared by a Master Entertainer, Master Dancer, or Master Musician.
Master Entertainers are granted the ability to trade in music disks that arelevel 5 or higherto an Entertainer Trainer, and will be given the choice of any level 1 - 9 music disk they'd like. This gives Master Entertainer more of a benefit to get, as it not only provides you a special song (Ceremonial) and a special instrument (Mandoviol) but it also gives you some flexibility in obtaining various songs for Jukeboxes.
Level 10 songs should never be available from Trainers, only when they're given upon completion of an Entertainer Mission. They are rare and will raise the value of a Jukebox that has that song in it. Of course, this songor songsshould be VERY cool. It should be something impressive. It should be prized, something that makes an event even better when a Jukebox with that song is obtained.
The disks could be used, during the final assembly of the Jukebox, to add more songs to the current available Jukebox songs. Let's call the current 29 songs on the Jukebox the default songs. Music disk slots would be part of the final Jukebox schematic, and would add to the songs available to play on the Jukebox.
2)Architects should make the housing of Jukeboxes, with different styles available. A Jukebox is a decoration/furniture item, and they deserve a part of the process for that. Architects are also who do the final assembly of the Jukebox. Jukeboxes last up to 45 days, given good resources. Don't require massive amounts of ore for the Jukebox, too - Architects deal with enough ore as it is 
Keep the requirements small, so that player can request a Jukebox to be made which special songs they have, and it won't cost them a fortune. Jukeboxes can be crafted with their default songs in the same design as they exist in the game now, but require at least 1 music disk for the final assembly. This means that even the most "basic" Jukebox is unique in some way, depending on the one song included with the Jukebox.
Keep the requirements small, so that player can request a Jukebox to be made which special songs they have, and it won't cost them a fortune. Jukeboxes can be crafted with their default songs in the same design as they exist in the game now, but require at least 1 music disk for the final assembly. This means that even the most "basic" Jukebox is unique in some way, depending on the one song included with the Jukebox.3) Master Artisans can make subcomponents needed for the Architect to make the Jukebox, in addition to the necessary component from Musicians.
4) Jukeboxes should have a shuffle function, as well as a means of switching tracks at desired intervals. That request was made by several players during TC testing, and I think it's a valid desire for functionality. Perhaps this shuffle/timing function would only be available to Master Musicians and Master Dancers who drop the Jukebox.
5) Musicians in the area of a Jukebox should allow the Jukebox owner to switch the "sound operation" to project the Musician's group's music in an ambient fashion - so that people can walk into a cantina and not just hear the special Jukebox music ambiently, but also performing Musicians who are currently playing. Let's say there's a track on the Jukebox that says "Band Leader." The player who wants to change the track of the Jukebox to "Band Leader" must be grouped with the Musician group, and the Jukebox would pull the ambient sound from the group leader (thus projecting the Musicians' music to the area in an ambient fashion).
This same ambient sound from Musicians could be provided using a Speaker. These are only available as loot right now. Musicians should be able to craft Microphones (which don't really work) and Speakers (which now serve the ambient sound function). Craftable Speakers by Musicians shouldn't require any quality of resources, and the required resources/components should be small. It should be easy for a Musician to make a Speaker, and it shouldn't require good resources. Crafted Speakers would allow color customization upon creation. Speakers should really be more interesting than the default color available as loot from an NPC. Speakers could then be created to match decor of player's structures. Only a Master Musician can craft a Speaker.
That's all I've got right now. I want to get in-game and play with the new changes.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 02-24-2005 05:05 PM
Riuanna
Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:09 pm
#85
I think the whole issue is, all that time invested into developinga terminal can have been invested better in making the universe richer with content. New songs would add flavor to the universe, just as new sounds for instruments would also enrich the flavor of what people spent a number of hours to master: music.
Musicians already are seen as (for the most part) afking buffbots. Some of us actually want to give music some meaning - roleplay, with song and dance (for those of us that do both).
It's not that the terminal is a bad idea. But the musicians should be able to do everything a terminal does and more. If you are going to give a terminal 20+ tracks, give musicans 21+ songs. After all, ideally, where did those tracks come from? Someone had to perform them to be put into a jukebox, right? And surely, there are more songs out there than what is in any single jukebox, right? No jukebox should have more content than what exists in the universe available to players who actually play the music that supposedly went into recording tracks for those jukeboxes. It just doesn't make logical sense, from an immersive point of view.
If you want the world to feel more immersive, then give the players more content. Pixel art is nice and wonderful, but I'm sure anyone would be happier with actual content than pixel art.
As said before, songs, songs songs. I'll do twenty quests, if it allowed me to learn twenty new songs. And as for musical instruments, how about giving those individual sounds too?
I'm not saying it's an easy chore for the devs. In fact, it wouldn't be. It would require them to invest time into something that is more for community purposes than galactic civil war purposes (such as buffing.)
-- Riu
Fragpuppie
Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:48 pm
#86
As an aside on the "we don't want to be crafters" issue of making musicians a part og the jukebox creation, I would not mind if we made the jukebox and loaded it with songs and we were done......IF
and I mean a really big IF
It worked like a real jukebox and credits were delivered to us for each play. Its in place to deliver artisan XP to the person who made a crafting tool. How bout 25 or 50 ...maybe even 100 creds per play. Oh and if they do this thay should add more songs (heaven forbid) but we are the people who have to install them or sell a datadisk that the user can then load onto the juke.
So we sell the jukes (with artisan components or artisan made and we just load the songs) or songdisks.
We get royalties for each play of a track we made.
We are involved with new content getting added to the jukebox.
Otherwise the jukes are permanant.
How hard is this really? The example is right there hidden so carefully that the Devs would never have found it. Its hidden REALITY. Make them work like it works in real life. Someone makes the jukebox, a craftsman even, with specialized skills (wouldn't know where those are in game). One loads songs/disks/albums onto it by BUYING them (and the accompianing royalty structure paid to the artist) from musicians and to use it in a public place or for an event one need to also LICENSE for use (hello....ASCAP, BMI).
I know that the "event promoter" could be said to be providing this but....BUT then I want to be able to buy buffs in any NPC hospital, buy a house from an archtect trainer or get that pilot trainer to SHOW me how to fly those missions.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Musician, Master Entertainer
and I mean a really big IF
It worked like a real jukebox and credits were delivered to us for each play. Its in place to deliver artisan XP to the person who made a crafting tool. How bout 25 or 50 ...maybe even 100 creds per play. Oh and if they do this thay should add more songs (heaven forbid) but we are the people who have to install them or sell a datadisk that the user can then load onto the juke.
So we sell the jukes (with artisan components or artisan made and we just load the songs) or songdisks.
We get royalties for each play of a track we made.
We are involved with new content getting added to the jukebox.
Otherwise the jukes are permanant.
How hard is this really? The example is right there hidden so carefully that the Devs would never have found it. Its hidden REALITY. Make them work like it works in real life. Someone makes the jukebox, a craftsman even, with specialized skills (wouldn't know where those are in game). One loads songs/disks/albums onto it by BUYING them (and the accompianing royalty structure paid to the artist) from musicians and to use it in a public place or for an event one need to also LICENSE for use (hello....ASCAP, BMI).
I know that the "event promoter" could be said to be providing this but....BUT then I want to be able to buy buffs in any NPC hospital, buy a house from an archtect trainer or get that pilot trainer to SHOW me how to fly those missions.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Musician, Master Entertainer
Khristen
Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:56 am
#87
The idea of a permanent, Architect-craftable juke box is very appealing to me. There are situations where there is a desire for background/ambiance music is there but the feasability and realism of hiring a live entertainer for the job isn't. A merchant's shop with music in the background to make the place inviting, a romantic dinner for two at a private residence, a radio to turn on while crafting or "cleaning" house. In reality you don't see live musicians playing in every store at the mall, you don't hire a quartet to play at your romantic anniversary dinner at home (unless you have waaaay too much money), and you don't bring a rock band to the office.
At the same time....the music you would have in these situations would have been recorded by real artists, who got paid for making those recordings.
There have been several excellent suggestions for craftable juke boxes in the last few posts. Musicians should not have to actually craft a disk (as someone said, there are techs for that; the musician just plays the music), but rather record one. Along the lines of holoemotes, they are things that don't require resources and a crafting tool. Maybe an Artisan makes a disk that a Musician then records on, but the actual Musician shouldn't be the one doing the crafting. Musicians are artists, not crafters.
The idea of having disks as a reward for entertainer missions has promise, but I don't think it would be good to have them become a quest reward thing only. Let some of the larger, orchestral pieces or some of the vocal tracks be quest rewards (of varying degrees of rareness, perhaps, but not uber-rare), but they would come out as a sub-component the way the recorded Musician tracks are. Taking a cue from the reverse engineering process, have these disks spawn at the completion of entertainer missions. These should not replace Musician disks, rather provide select pieces that could not realistically be created in the normal circumstances (meaning limited instruments, vocals, etc.) of the current Musician music.
Finally, as much of these music tracks that could be given to Musicians for live play should. They may sound different than what comes out of the juke box (since those use the soundtrack clips of John Williams music), but the tunes should be there. Live performances *always* sound different than recordings. Recordings are polished and modified. Live music has a totally different sound. There's nothing wrong with those differences. Just as some people prefer the sound of live bands in RL, some people would much rather have a recorded CD.
SWG needs a permanent background music function. This shouldn't be at the expense of the Musician profession, nor does it need to be. There is a happy medium here somewhere.
Aleyo
Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:15 am
#88
Alrighty - here's my approved message that sums up what's been going on behind the scenes:
I've presented your feedback to the devs, and after consideration, they have decided to bring the jukebox live as-is for the time being. However, along with other Player Event Perks, they like the idea of creating a more permanent, craftable version of the jukebox at some time that would be integrated with the Musician profession. When such a craftable version should come to fruition, they would remove the current version of the jukebox from the Player Event Perk system. The devs are open to suggestions on how best to integrate a craftable version of the jukebox with Musicians and other professions.
I've presented your feedback to the devs, and after consideration, they have decided to bring the jukebox live as-is for the time being. However, along with other Player Event Perks, they like the idea of creating a more permanent, craftable version of the jukebox at some time that would be integrated with the Musician profession. When such a craftable version should come to fruition, they would remove the current version of the jukebox from the Player Event Perk system. The devs are open to suggestions on how best to integrate a craftable version of the jukebox with Musicians and other professions.
Warryyr
Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:41 am
#89
Aleyo wrote:
Alrighty - here's my approved message that sums up what's been going on behind the scenes:
I've presented your feedback to the devs, and after consideration, they have decided to bring the jukebox live as-is for the time being. However, along with other Player Event Perks, they like the idea of creating a more permanent, craftable version of the jukebox at some time that would be integrated with the Musician profession. When such a craftable version should come to fruition, they would remove the current version of the jukebox from the Player Event Perk system. The devs are open to suggestions on how best to integrate a craftable version of the jukebox with Musicians and other professions.
My only concern is with the concept that a terminal isoverriding our skills as Musicians. Although having a part in it would be stellar (that's what really put me off on the whole thing in the first place is that we had no part in new musical content), the fundamental statement of a jukebox is:
"Can't/don't want to find a Musician for music, buy a jukebox - they play better music anyways."
There is stillthe issue of having a terminal play better music than me. I don't think that's right.
starwars2 or the cantina song from the jukebox - listen to them side-by-side, and I guarantee you'll prefer the Jukebox.
As someone said before, give the Jukebox our loopy, tooting, Star Wars song knock-offs, and let US play the good stuff.
There is an inherent problem with the concept of a jukebox in SWG - it plays better music than us!
IRL, a jukebox can only play what real artists have recorded. They typically won't hold a candle to a real Musician onstage, doing their thing (though admittedly, I've been to some bad concerts in my time, from folks who sounded great on CD).
In SWG, the jukebox performs way better than we're even able to. Advantage: Jukebox. Always.
It is imperative that any new version of Jukebox be better than just being more permanent, too - otherwise we'll get lambasted for getting what we wanted due to our "whining," whereas the Devs have seemed to admit the implementation of these things could've been done better in the first place.
I have something to tell the Devs, too - the next time you want to adda terminalin the game that supercedes a profession's skills, it might be wise to solicit the profession's community about our take on it, otherwise this entire snafu would've been avoided without wasted development effort.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 02-24-2005 12:59 PM
Bronski113
Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:46 am
#90
Personally I don't mind having a jukebox, it will be nice to have music and i don't have to play it myself because i'm the only musician around.
Two things i would like to see:
1. Musicians involved in the creation of jukeboxes (preferably master musicians)
2. Musicians playing can do ambient music like the jukeboxes.
Two things i would like to see:
1. Musicians involved in the creation of jukeboxes (preferably master musicians)
2. Musicians playing can do ambient music like the jukeboxes.
Drygo
Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:39 am
#91
I think a lot of people have already expressed my thoughts on this, so I won't repeat them. (ie, bad for musicians)
The thing that I find problematic, since the jukebox has already been implemented, there's not a whole they can do to rectify the situation short of pulling it. And, we know that would *not* go over well at all. I mean, even if they somehow involved musicians in the crafting process, it still doesn't solve the problems.
I mean, you basically need one musician (master maybe), to craft the jukebox or discs, or combination of the two. This is bad because only musicians of a certain level can do this. If you're not master, if that's what they decide, you still lose out. Also, this still does not at all address the issue of hiring live bands. This may be a source of income for a musician at some point. But, it still lacks the live band group functionality. I know this is asking a lot. But, ideally, if the jukeboxes to become dependent on musicians, then I think it should still need a group. Musicians can record the disks, but leave out certain sounds (ie, instruments) from the tracks unless you have someone to play that sound during the recording. You need a nala, omni, mandovial, and two horns to record the full track. Otherwise, you get the song, but instruments are lacking. Or, they could make it not recordable at all, and instead make the jukebox a speaker. And, you hire a band who can play the five instruments sounds to make the jukebox play the full version of the song with all the instruments and nuances in the tracks. If you only have a band with two musicians, then you still hear the whole song, but you only hear it with 2/5 of the instruments in the tracks. Does that make any sense?
Under this scenario, the tracks are related to skill levels of musicians. Only a band of five musicians, all masters, each playing 5 different instruments, can play every single song with all of the sounds on the jukebox. A band of three musicians who have reached Composer or Virtuoso can play most of the songs, but it's not as full...only 3/5 of the instruments. The musician should be in control of switching the song on the jukebox. If an audience member wants to hear a certain song, the band can say "sorry the entire band doesn't know this song." Or, "Sure, we can do that." Then, they'd use the radial dial on the jukebox to switch. Granted, musicians wouldn't be able to compose songs per se because there is no control over flourishes. However, I think something like this would make musicians in HUGE demand. And, not only that, but is something like this really that hard to code? I wouldn't think so, but then again, I'm not a coding whiz...far from it.
I mean, so what if we craft it? We still lose the BAND. And, the BAND is what is really important.
At the very least, they should at least require a musician to be hired as a DJ to work the jukebox.
Message Edited by Drygo on 02-26-2005 06:42 AM