Musician Archive
Thread: Feedback needed Jukebox Player Event Perk
Mariki
Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:13 am
#66
OMG what a crock.. I can't believe this. Here we are trying to work to improve our art any way we can with the limited tools they give us and they come up with a damn bot to obsolete us. And don't even get me started on the dev time that went into this abomination.
I have been serious mistaken it seems, this is not a RP game. As an entertainer we aren't suppose to be entertaining. Our purpose is to heal in this pure combat shooter. And the days I spent trying to create an entertainment venue was wasted as I'm sure these event deeds will create a venue that solves all the problems we been asking to have fixed also.
I am just so flabergasted. Everything I thought this game was about has been proven incorrect. Entertaining is no longer a viable option. It is clear the dev time isn't there for us to be entertaining. This is very depressing... I don't need to pay for an on line shooter game. I couldn't care less for that.
In one fell swoop the devs have blew holes in the sails ofmyplans forcreativity. Theyhave destoyed any chance to be an entertainer for RP reasons. How are we ever going compete with this canned music on just lyrics alone. Who is going to bother? Our competition isn't other bands or individuals, its in cheap bots. This really sucks.
Message Edited by Mariki on 02-24-2005 07:24 AM
Aleyo
Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:54 am
#67
SOETyrant wrote:
Ravanne_Esi wrote:This publish is the death knell for live musicians. SOE's recent changes in enterrtainer buffs and healing makes perfect sense now, as with the introduction of player event jukeboxes live musicians are no longer viable. I'm sure the next big announcement will include a new dance droid, with many wonderfuly coreographed routines and they will all display properly to the viewer. Unless you are a buffbot the musician profession is now worthless.Message Edited by Ravanne_Esi on 02-24-2005 08:11 AM
I wouldn't give up now, we have some pretty positive changes coming for all entertainers shortly. We will be posting on this sometime next week. Live performances still have clear advantages over the jukebox btw, but not everyone can round up a band.
This is from the feedback thread of publish 13.1 on Live.
I'm working to see if I can get another statement approved to tell you guys.
Message Edited by Aleyo on 02-24-2005 10:54 AM
Bronski113
Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:24 am
#68
I'm a musician, i'll continue being a musician, doesn't matter what happens i'll still be a musician. I'll still get gigs as a live musician. The last three weddings i've played at were outside. The jukebox can't do that.
I'm not even going to worry about this.
I'm not even going to worry about this.
Riuanna
Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:46 am
#69
Live performances still have clear advantages over the jukebox btw, but not everyone can round upa band.
Gordon Walton
Sony Online Entertainment
My feel on this is.. the jukebox takes away all incentive to create a band.This suggests that hard work and dedication to create an individual band isnot important. Yes, that stuff not only takes time, but finding the right people takes energy.
For whatever future goals they have for entertainers/musicians, it appears to be MUCH easier to make a droidterminal not only play stuff we can't, but play it BETTER and CHEAPER than any live act would cost.
Here I was hoping for new songs, maybe even instruments that didn't sound the same (i.e. the chid, fizzz and kloo all sound the same, the fanfar, traz, and slitherhorn all sound the same). Only the master instruments seem to have any actual tone to themselves. I was hoping maybe they would "fix" that particular issue. I was hoping, possibly that some of the very things they are giving to the terminal, they would give to us. Instead, it seems they want to replace us with a droid terminal.
Yes, what I'm discussing would take lots of time on the devs part. The easy solution seems to have been taken. *copy sound tracks from Lucas Sound Library* *paste to droid terminal.*
I really wanted to, as Loniki does, create meaning to our profession as ENTERTAINERS. I wonder if that's possible with this change.
-- Riu
Warryyr
Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:16 am
#70
Aleyo wrote:
SOETyrant wrote:
Ravanne_Esi wrote:
This publish is the death knell for live musicians. SOE's recent changes in enterrtainer buffs and healing makes perfect sense now, as with the introduction of player event jukeboxes live musicians are no longer viable. I'm sure the next big announcement will include a new dance droid, with many wonderfuly coreographed routines and they will all display properly to the viewer. Unless you are a buffbot the musician profession is now worthless.
Message Edited by Ravanne_Esi on 02-24-2005 08:11 AM
I wouldn't give up now, we have some pretty positive changes coming for all entertainers shortly. We will be posting on this sometime next week. Live performances still have clear advantages over the jukebox btw, but not everyone can round up a band.
This is from the feedback thread of publish 13.1 on Live.
I'm working to see if I can get another statement approved to tell you guys.
Message Edited by Aleyo on 02-24-2005 10:54 AM
I hope ya can, because there's a lot of discouraged folks around here right now. And rightfully so.
I'm doing my best to keep spirits up, but ya know like Han Solo said, hey - it's me!
Sunshine and lollipops ain't really my thing...unless it's sunshine in July on my birthday,and a cherry Tootsie pop...daaaaang.
omadnay
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:02 pm
#71
Aleyo wrote:
Alrighty - here's my approved message that sums up what's been going on behind the scenes:
I've presented your feedback to the devs, and after consideration, they have decided to bring the jukebox live as-is for the time being. However, along with other Player Event Perks, they like the idea of creating a more permanent, craftable version of the jukebox at some time that would be integrated with the Musician profession. When such a craftable version should come to fruition, they would remove the current version of the jukebox from the Player Event Perk system. The devs are open to suggestions on how best to integrate a craftable version of the jukebox with Musicians and other professions.
Okay (Sure wish they took care of this before they pushed it live, but...)
These things I feel very strongly about:
1) Musicians have to craft(record) each song/track. Basically, Musicians have to be solely responsible for the songs that players wish to play in thier jukeboxes. And this should not be a one-time deal.
2) Each Song/Track can be played a limited amount of times, thus creating re-sale income. If they made these recordings permanent, or long lasting then they would not be much different than the NPC bought jukebox, and that's unacceptable, IMO. Again, not a one-time deal, we need to make sure Musicians will be needed around to keep these things running. Otherwise, the jukeboxes will be bought, they'll only need one interaction with a musician and then they have a permanent jukebox that out-classes what we can do.
I think the best way to handle the actual jukebox machine would be this:
Only Master Musicians (Or some other level of musicianship that is agreed upon [I'm open to debate]) can purchase the jukebox from an NPC and other players would have to buy those jukeboxes from the musicians.
(Either that, or an Artisan/DE/Musician colaberation would be needed to craft these... unless they want to make them completely craftable by musicians only.)
Then the different songs could be crafted by the musician based on skill boxes. I.E. musical knowledge and/or techniques would grant the "schematics" to record the individual songs as the musician goes up those branches.
Some tracks should be saved for the Master Box.
I also think Master Musicians should be able to craft a multi-track disc that can loop several songs... thus allowing the jukebox to play through several songs in sequence, without having to change the songs manually.
Again, that would only be craftable at Master and would be limited in how many times it could be played, just like the rest.
So, to sum up... a player would have to order a jukebox (Either buying it from a musician or from an artisan/DE).
Then they would have to order recordings for thier jukebox.
The musician would craft/record these songs. They would have a limited use.
The player would buy these recordings from the musician, and then have to load them into thier jukebox.
The jukebox can store 29+ recordings.
Every time the jukebox owner wants to play the jukebox music, they have to switch it on and choose the song/track.
Each time they do this, the crafted recording/song/track loses one Use.
Eventually the jukebox owner would have to buy a new set of recordings from the musician.
For this mehtod, I'd say 10-20 uses per track/song may work well.
Remember, these songs loop over and over until they are stopped. That would only be one use. They would only be "Used" when someone starts and stops the song(s).
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Message Edited by omadnay on 02-24-2005 05:39 PM
omadnay
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:14 pm
#72
I agree with everyone's concerns... but the fact that these jukeboxes don't involve us at all is the only thing that will be changed about them.
There's nothing else we can do about that, other than dropping the profession.
So, I'm staying focused on how we can make them work with us, as opposed to completely against us.
Here's one major issue I'd like to see them hotfix for us...
Please allow us to buff ourselves!
As an artist, I have to admit... absorbing oneself in your own art can lead your mind to great heights.
That's what Mental Enhancements in-game mean to me.
The Entertainer dazzles and inspires the audience so much that they reach a higher mental clarity.
Their heads feel overloaded by the brilliance of what they just experienced.
If you agree with me that the game-mechanic represents that aspect of the human mind and art (To a degree) then it is completely plausible to allow the entertainer to enhance thier own minds through thier art.
I do not believe for a moment that this would create any imbalance and I also do not believe for a moment that it would destroy the "Social" nature of these professions.
The people that play purely for others' entertainment and have no desire to buff themselves won't be hurt by this.
Other people flocking to become entertainers in order to be able to buff thier own minds isn't likely to happen (106 skill points for what they can get from other players/bots) and even still would not hurt the entertainer professions.
Perhaps we would actually have new players discovering that they truly enjoy those professions and would become welcome memebers of the entertainer community.
As it stands now, the entertainer does too little for themselves.
If the Devs want to make some of us happy, then tell them to allow us to buff ourselves.
That's a start, for me anyways.
It doesn't have to be credits, it doesn't have to be loot, it doesn't have to be uber combat skills... but I need something more beneficial to myself in return for the skill points I have spent.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
There's nothing else we can do about that, other than dropping the profession.
So, I'm staying focused on how we can make them work with us, as opposed to completely against us.
Here's one major issue I'd like to see them hotfix for us...
Please allow us to buff ourselves!
As an artist, I have to admit... absorbing oneself in your own art can lead your mind to great heights.
That's what Mental Enhancements in-game mean to me.
The Entertainer dazzles and inspires the audience so much that they reach a higher mental clarity.
Their heads feel overloaded by the brilliance of what they just experienced.
If you agree with me that the game-mechanic represents that aspect of the human mind and art (To a degree) then it is completely plausible to allow the entertainer to enhance thier own minds through thier art.
I do not believe for a moment that this would create any imbalance and I also do not believe for a moment that it would destroy the "Social" nature of these professions.
The people that play purely for others' entertainment and have no desire to buff themselves won't be hurt by this.
Other people flocking to become entertainers in order to be able to buff thier own minds isn't likely to happen (106 skill points for what they can get from other players/bots) and even still would not hurt the entertainer professions.
Perhaps we would actually have new players discovering that they truly enjoy those professions and would become welcome memebers of the entertainer community.
As it stands now, the entertainer does too little for themselves.
If the Devs want to make some of us happy, then tell them to allow us to buff ourselves.
That's a start, for me anyways.
It doesn't have to be credits, it doesn't have to be loot, it doesn't have to be uber combat skills... but I need something more beneficial to myself in return for the skill points I have spent.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Message Edited by omadnay on 02-24-2005 05:15 PM
omadnay
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:25 pm
#73
*I'm not trying to run my post count up* 
If we would all rather stay away from the Crafting side of things... there is another way to handle the jukebox and it's songs.
The Jukebox would either be crafted or picked up from an NPC by the musician (As I suggested above).
The songs/tracks, however, could be loaded up and installed by the musician without need of crafting.
The musician could choose a radial menu option to "Program" the songs into the jukebox.
The songs would last either for a period of time or for a limited number of uses.
In essence, the musician would Buff the jukebox in order to make it function for other players.
This would implement a system more akin to the way entertainers already work and not be based on resources and crafting.
I don't know which method I prefer.
(My gut feelings are that I like this method better, but that it would make the cost of programming the jukebox tough to figure at best... though that's nothing new for our business)
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
If we would all rather stay away from the Crafting side of things... there is another way to handle the jukebox and it's songs.
The Jukebox would either be crafted or picked up from an NPC by the musician (As I suggested above).
The songs/tracks, however, could be loaded up and installed by the musician without need of crafting.
The musician could choose a radial menu option to "Program" the songs into the jukebox.
The songs would last either for a period of time or for a limited number of uses.
In essence, the musician would Buff the jukebox in order to make it function for other players.
This would implement a system more akin to the way entertainers already work and not be based on resources and crafting.
I don't know which method I prefer.
(My gut feelings are that I like this method better, but that it would make the cost of programming the jukebox tough to figure at best... though that's nothing new for our business)
May the force be with you.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
Message Edited by omadnay on 02-24-2005 05:29 PM
LyteFoot
Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:51 pm
#74
Aleyo wrote:
Alrighty - here's my approved message that sums up what's been going on behind the scenes:
I've presented your feedback to the devs, and after consideration, they have decided to bring the jukebox live as-is for the time being. However, along with other Player Event Perks, they like the idea of creating a more permanent, craftable version of the jukebox at some time that would be integrated with the Musician profession. When such a craftable version should come to fruition, they would remove the current version of the jukebox from the Player Event Perk system. The devs are open to suggestions on how best to integrate a craftable version of the jukebox with Musicians and other professions.
Thanks scip for working for us. Unfortunately its bad news not good. Making it craftable and permanent is even worse. It just turns us into a crafting profession. Even in RL it isn't the artists that craft the recorded work they perform their parts and technicians craft it.
I'll see how the events jukebox goes but I sure don't want them permanent. I want to perform and be in demand for that performance. Today when people hear me play something other than SW1 and that I try and mix the flourishes in different patterns they appreciate it as above average. Once they hear the jukebox nothing I produce will sound good enough and that simply isn't acceptable.
Yeah I know I'm blowing in the wind, they are in and will never go away now. I just think changing them further will be more damaging than they already are. At least they aren't permanent, people won't become accustomed to them being in every house or shop they enter. The dazzle will fade and they will become something only used for special events as intended. At least then my day to day performing will not be as impacted as it will if these things are everywhere playing all the time.
Tralmek
Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:26 pm
#75
LyteFoot wrote:
...I just think changing them further will be more damaging than they already are....
Honestly, I don't see further changes coming to Jukeboxes. I mean look at the history here:
Spring 04: Theater Quests - broken, no reward, removed from publish for refinement
Fall 04: Theater Quests - broken, reward added (dance reward broken)
Fall 04: Theater Quests - feedback thread started and abandoned w/o being read
Fall 04: Theater Quests - published as-is with little refinement and 2 of 3 rewards being broken
--Theater Quest Status -- Unchanged since publish
Beta: Broken Dances reported, /bugged
Summer 03: Broken Dances reported, /bugged
-- Broken Dance Status -- Unchanged since launch (new broken dances added to the collection)
Fall 03: Entertainer buffs increased in power
Spring 04: Exploits with speedbuff fixed
Spring 04: Exploit fixes break simultaneous buff ability, retain the double buff exploit
Winter 05: Fix simultaneous buff ability, "fix" double buff exploit
Beta: AFK macrotaining is reported, /bugged
Summer 03: AFK macroing comes to the attention of all and is complained about, reported, and /bugged
Fall 03: Devs report they feel AFK macroing is unhealthy for the gaming environment
Spring 04: Devs reaffirm they feel AFK macroing is unhealthy for the game
Summer 04: Tiggs says she doesn't particularly care for AFK macroing
Fall 04: SOETyrant says he is going to see to the elimination of AFK macroing
-- AFK macroing situation -- Growing exponentially
It's not just our content either. It's a bunch of stuff...they add things to the game, telling us they will fix them later, and then they almost never do. Battlegrounds? How many otherpeople here remember when those were working? Anyone?
Rembember the bug that made necklaces invisible in the examine and crafting windows? That was originally reported in Beta, and it lasted until just before JTL came out.
Seriously.Jukeboxes went live. They're not going to be changing. Their (already recycled) art might be recycled again and given some new features, but their musical content will never be given, transferred, or copied to Musicians. It's not happened in the past regardless of promises, and it's not going to happen in the future.
The fact is, Musicians weren't even considered as a factor when the Devs added this. The only reason they paid the slightest attention is because we brought it to them via our Correspondents. Now that they feel the situation is resolved (bringing us more empty promises of content and fixes) they will undoubtedly set us out of sight again and start working on something else. Maybe a dance bot. Maybe a way to increase buffing 25% when the AFK tag is used. Who knows what sorts of great new powergaming, time-sink eliminating, AFK building, de-multiplayering ideas for content there might be sitting on the shelf ready to go.
Edited because I'm an idiot and used "site" instead of "sight"
Message Edited by Tralmek on 02-24-2005 04:29 PM
Mariki
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:04 pm
#76
After thinking about it more, I withdraw all my previous concerns about these silly things.
I realized they are no more competition then the TV set six feet from me. People do not go to cantinas or events to hear canned music. There is no impact from this device, in fact its quite silly.Could you imagine someone asking if your band can play saturday and you tell them no, get a jukebox.. That's almost an insult...
Message Edited by Mariki on 02-24-2005 04:07 PM
Mariki
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:05 pm
#77
silly douple post, withdrawn
Message Edited by Mariki on 02-24-2005 04:06 PM
Illya
Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:06 pm
#78
/sigh
I want a player perk that let's me enjoy the services of another profession! How about a tailor perk that will let me create any clothes I want for 8 hours for 25k? How about a Doctor perk that let's me buff and heal for 8 hours? I could go on...
This is very shocking and upsetting.
I want a player perk that let's me enjoy the services of another profession! How about a tailor perk that will let me create any clothes I want for 8 hours for 25k? How about a Doctor perk that let's me buff and heal for 8 hours? I could go on...
This is very shocking and upsetting.