Musician Archive

Way to ignore the points I've brought up by dismissing me as something I'm not! I knew the points I brought up would be too much for you to combat though, as your main defense is that there is no precedent for this type of setup in the game, when, in fact, there is. Could you please tell me why artisans shouldn't be outraged that "to be a complete artisan" (i.e., a master of all crafting) they would actually have to take MUSIC so they could craft instruments? That is even weirder than an entertainer (who is part musician) getting an instrument, don't you agree? I know a lot of musicians in real life... NONE of them can craft an instrument. I have a degree in piano - I certainly can't build one, so don't tell me they are related.

Ok, fine, master entertainers aren't masters of all of the entertainment fields... but they do have IV levels of practice in each branch, including music. As such, they get a mediocre song and instrument. This doesn't make sense because... ? "Because I want that song and instrument without wasting skill points!" Yea, we know.

I'd also like to ask you... What is anyone going to do with +50 to wound and BF healing?! Perhaps you haven't been in a cantina lately, but most wounds already heal in about 2 minutes... do you think someone is going to master a profession so they can say they heal them in 1 minute 45 seconds? Mmm, tempting.

X, I don't know why you keep referring to needing the mandovial and ceremonial in the context of being a real musician. Like I said before, making instruments isn't an artisan thing in the same sense that these are not inherently musician things. A "complete musician" as you keep calling it, does not include mandovial and ceremonial, and no one is making you get them... just like no one is forcing artisans to take up music if they don't want to.

No one has addressed the fact that dancers only get effects in their tech line, and removing them would cause a serious backlash as they would be left with essentially nothing but a skill that might make them fall down less, which isn't even a big concern to most dancers. (The tech line only effects dances of equal or lower skill level, which means that the dancer will still fall down while doing master-level dances. Thus, the tech line is pretty much all about "pretty lights" for the dancers.)

BTW, you must know some gifted 12 year-olds to think that their command of the English language is this good... lol And last time I checked, trolls didn't offer so many valid points in one post. And don't think I haven't noticed that you are ignoring all of those points, and don't think I can't figure out why. Sorry, calling me a 12 year-old troll just doesn't make your case any stronger.

LOL wow, never thought this thread would get so big with arguements about master musician and master entertainer.

My goal when I first started Entertainer was to become a master musician. When I got novice, I heard for the first time someone play a mandoviol. I just had to get that, so I stopped musician for a bit and did the stuff necessary for master entertainer. Once I got that I continued my track to master musician.

Later on down the road some of the people I knew made it to master musician and I heard the nalargon and virtuoso song. After hearing that song I am not sure if I am going to make the trek to master musician. That song is not worth it. The song is less than steller and doesn't even compare to ceremonial. And the nalargon? You can hardly hear it in any song. It doesn't have the same effect as say a mandoviol or a bandfill/ommni. It is just for looks and to cement your status as master imo.

So, depending on other career choices I make, I may or may not spend the points needed to get master musician. The only reason I would now is if I was to join a band that wanted to tour. If you are going to join a permanent band and wish to play with them at all times, then you need to get everything musicianship has to offer. If your just going to play in cantinas and such, then its not needed to get every bit of music.

I agree with a lot of what's been said here.

Why are many people hell bent on being uber l33t musician man? Only a few of us in real life go to Juliard and make an actuall living on solo gigs. I know of one trombonist in the whole world who makes his living touring and soloing with orchestras and jazz bands. I think it was Bill Watris, I forget if it was him or not.

Sometimes good enough is good enough. Yeah, in a touring permanent band you'd need 3 or 4 masters. But 6-8 competent musicians would be fine as support in 90% of the situations I believe. There is no reason for a pistoleer who only hunts durni on the weekends to master out. See what I'm saying?

If my band has 5-6 masters and the rest have made it only up the music knowledge tree to jazz and no tech, I'll be a happy camper. Only one or two of us really need to be doing FX and the dancers can help with that. If we play a virtuoso and a few can't play, I've got some singing for them to do, complete with solos and back up spots, there's more than enough work to go round. If we're playing ceremonial and 3 guys aren't master Ent. I can send them out to do publicity on the sidewalk outside.

It would be better for a few to not be masters in fact so we as musicians could spread some points to survey for materials, perhaps a merchant, a bouncer with some brawler skills. things like that.

This is all assuming the people involved don't mind playing second fiddle (which you have to do in a band) for maybe 60% of the time. SW1 sounds horrid when it's a bunch of commities of one soloing away. A 20 piece band could sound terrible on virtuoso if they all just mashed keys.

There's room for ego, but there is a requirement for humility in the musician class. I think if you look at it as not an "everyone who picks music must hit lvl 50" kind of thing then it looks better.

Consequently, it doesn't bother me to "waste" extra skills to get all the songs. Someone else won't and I'm counting on the fact that they won't for the success of my band.

Agreed. I think reaching ME should actually reward u with mods like +50Wound healing +50 Battle Fatigue Healing or something to that effect. It doesn't make sense that u have to get ME to get 1 more song and 1 more instrument. Both dancers and musicians are screwed.

To whoever who said that ME is the master of all, then he/she should only be able to play the Kloo Horn and Starwars3 at most.

Hijo wrote: Way to ignore the points I've brought up by dismissing me as something I'm not! I knew the points I brought up would be too much for you to combat though, as your main defense is that there is no precedent for this type of setup in the game, when, in fact, there is.

I reply: You assume that your points are valid and that the precendence works in your favor, which it doesn't.

Hijo then wrote: Could you please tell me why artisans shouldn't be outraged that "to be a complete artisan" (i.e., a master of all crafting) they would actually have to take MUSIC so they could craft instruments? That is even weirder than an entertainer (who is part musician) getting an instrument, don't you agree? I know a lot of musicians in real life... NONE of them can craft an instrument. I have a degree in piano - I certainly can't build one, so don't tell me they are related.

Reply: Welcome to a game where medics craft specialized equipment, scouts craft specialized equipment entertainers craft specialized equipment, and artisans cannot master all forms of crating even if they wanted to. Heck there are 7 whole specializedonions branching off of the artisan onion. Seems the precendence is there that musicians should craft their own instruments.

Hijo again: Ok, fine, master entertainers aren't masters of all of the entertainment fields... but they do have IV levels of practice in each branch, including music. As such, they get a mediocre song and instrument. This doesn't make sense because... ? "Because I want that song and instrument without wasting skill points!" Yea, we know.

Reply again: So this point you agree wasn't valid, fine. However, they only have one tree in music, one tree in dance, one tree in ID and one tree in Healing. A Master ID hasfive trees in ID, a Master Dancerthree trees dance and three trees healing, a Master Musician hasthree trees music,three trees healing where a single box in these trees equals four times the entire tree in the entertainer onion. Since many musicians would say that the Mandoviolin and Cerimonial are superior to the Nargalon and Virtuoso, how can you possible think there is not a problem with the current layout?? (See Niklesnitz post for that one)

Hijo: I'd also like to ask you... What is anyone going to do with +50 to wound and BF healing?! Perhaps you haven't been in a cantina lately, but most wounds already heal in about 2 minutes... do you think someone is going to master a profession so they can say they heal them in 1 minute 45 seconds? Mmm, tempting.

Reply: This I agree with, which is why I want a more substancial reward for the master box of entertainer that addresses the entertainer proffession.

Hijo: X, I don't know why you keep referring to needing the mandovial and ceremonial in the context of being a real musician. Like I said before, making instruments isn't an artisan thing in the same sense that these are not inherently musician things. A "complete musician" as you keep calling it, does not include mandovial and ceremonial, and no one is making you get them... just like no one is forcing artisans to take up music if they don't want to.

Reply: A complete musician does include the mandoviolin and cerimonial at the master level, just as a complete doctor, complete rifleman, complete creature handler, complete architect, complete everything but Dancer/musician encompasses the entire skill. I do not have to get Master scout for all the CH skills, master marksman for all the pistol skills, master artisan for all the weaponsmith skills, ect. You have failed to see the precedence supports the fact that dancer/musician are not correct by the rest of the playing field. Stop looking at this as a " I have it, nanana" and look at it logically from a game balance. Since we are in Beta 4, we should try to improve the game where needed, not just play status quo.

Hijo: No one has addressed the fact that dancers only get effects in their tech line, and removing them would cause a serious backlash as they would be left with essentially nothing but a skill that might make them fall down less, which isn't even a big concern to most dancers. (The tech line only effects dances of equal or lower skill level, which means that the dancer will still fall down while doing master-level dances. Thus, the tech line is pretty much all about "pretty lights" for the dancers.

Reply: True, this is the one valid point so far. This is the Musician board though, not the dancer board. IF I was on the dancer board, I'd be hollering about the Master Entertainer dances and the fact that the tech tree really doesn't do much for the dancer other than pretty lites. Would be nice if there were some specific dancer clothes or accessories (flaming baton anyone). And yes, I'm a tailor, I know what that would mean, but I'm ok with that.

Hijo: BTW, you must know some gifted 12 year-olds to think that their command of the English language is this good... lol And last time I checked, trolls didn't offer so many valid points in one post. And don't think I haven't noticed that you are ignoring all of those points, and don't think I can't figure out why. Sorry, calling me a 12 year-old troll just doesn't make your case any stronger.

Reply: Actually, most 12 years olds could keep up with you, a gifted 12 year old would put you down quick, as they are usually at or near a college level reading and writing. Since your language is typical, and uses nothing but base words for a language, a sixth grader should be about right. As for not being a troll, well I'll give you one valid point, just on the wrong board and another that you seem to grasp like everyone else, GJ there. So I stand by my assessment. If however you are an adult, I'm really not impressed and stating so didn't hurt my argument either, it was just pleasurable.

To Kora: The idea that Cerimonial or Virtuoso being played by a 20 piece band is pretty far off. First, most musicians will opt out of ME and second they will also opt out of MM. The problem I see is that most people will be opting out of both of these because of the obsene skill point cost for both and the huge xp(meaning time) expediture of MM. While opting out of MM should mean that there are going to be skills you do not know, opting out of ME should not affect an MM as is present in the current state. Not just because it would be more convienent, but because this (and Dancer) are the only places where such an arrangement exist. This is a game balancing issue and should be rectified for continuity. It is a simple as that. I just do not want to see the correction, but I also do not want to see the ME completely disregarded as an after effect by the developers. While moving all of the effects may have been a bad idea, it was merely a suggestion. I would like to see other suggestions because if we come upon a good one, the developers are more likely to hear and change. Afterall, don't just knock on the door with a problem, but have a solution also. The reason people such as Hijo get my loving attention is passages such as:

"Psst, I have a secret to tell you... musicians can craft instruments. Artisans can't! Man the cat is really out of the bag now! Haha, boy are those artisans going to be MAD! I can't wait to see the look on their faces when I make a mandovial right in front of them... and then play it even! haha I'm gonna go do that right now before they realize their "oversight" and nerf me! I might even sell it after I'm done playing it!Just imagine if an artisan-merchant combo sees me doing that! OMG, they are going to be crying by the time I'm done taunting them!"

which adds absolutely nothing to the discussion, is a ploy for attention,attempts toderail the discussion, and has no basis or research done to even remotely vaildate it. So until he presents something that is thought out and mature, I will continue to ear-mark him as a troll, and show him why.

Other than that, all smiles, especially to Hijo.

Killian Red - Bria

Musician/Tailor/Pistoleer/Rebel (only a Lance Corporal though =( )

Erm, if you are going to quote me at least be intelligent about it... I could use most of what you said LordTigris to help my case, not hurt it. ;P

Couple of things though...

"Since many musicians would say that the Mandoviolin and Cerimonial are superior to the Nargalon and Virtuoso"

You can't possibly know too many master musicians if you think that's true. Uncommon, original, fun for a little while,yes, but superior no. I think those that would say that a) aren't a ME, and b) haven't heard both songs with a full spectrum of instruments. Obviously if you've been playing virtuoso for a few days and have never played mandoviol and ceremonial, they are going to look better. It doesn't mean they are. But... If you think they are superior, then why even bother going through the music tree? You can have the "best" song and instrument without even bothering with music. At the very least you should only have to take the knowledge line, because you could play mandoviol on all the songs then except virtuoso. There ya go, problem solved. (No one hardly gets to play anything above starwars3 anyway since there are always new musicians around)

And why do you keep saying this has anything to do with game balance? Is it throwing the musicians' self-esteem out of whack or something? lol

The prescedence is there, but I won't bother getting into it again because you are choosing to ignore the obvious. What is plain to see is that you are completely overestimating the value of what you don't have for that exact reason... that you don't have it.

This thread sooo needs to be over... lol This is such a waste of time.

PS - Niklesnitz you are right, however it has nothing to do with being a master dancer that would be granting the instrument and song. By that logic, a master marksman who has taken ME could play a song/instrument that a master musician couldn't as well.

If it is a waste of your time, then go elsewhere.

As for this precedence that you keep speaking of, I'm still waiting to see you invoke it mythical power to awe us all with the obvious.

As for game balance, it is not a balanced system. The simple fact that a marksman can get a song and instrument that a MM doesn't have should point that out. The fact that it is a unique song and a unique instrument compound the imbalance. The fact that ME takes very little effort compared to anything in musician make this just plain blaring. The idea that a Master Medic should be creating Rancors while the Master Bio-Engineer cannot is ludicrious. Somehow I'm not surprised that this isn't "obvious" to you. This parellel can be made with every base proffesssion/elite profession, but actually only exists in dance and music. For some reason, you arejust choosing to ignore it. Can I take it that means you are an ME that doesn't want to be nerfed and have to take "god forbid" music to learn music?? (Probably come back with soemthing like "You take all the way to music 4 to get ME" yeah, yeah, lot of hard work there.)

As for "have vs have not", you may think I'm that petty, but I would rather worry about getting this game up to excellent status rather than just working(mostly) atm. Of course I might be ideolistic, I mean game balance, what the hell is that??

Last, I know more MMs than I do MEs. I have heard both the manoviolin and the nargalon as well as Cerimonial and Virtuoso. They are all four nice. Would I putmanoviolin above, no, but I didn't say I thought, I said some people think(one of which posted here). Personally I think the bandfill (which is my favorite btw), nargalon, and mandoviolin should be the top three instruments. These three are the most unique in sound and contribute more tothe whole band approach of music. Which is to say that if the kloo horn had been in ME with Starwars 3, probably no one would have too big a problem, although the problem would still exist.

Killian Red - Bria

Musician that can't dance. Unless the ladies want a lap dance.

"Can I take it that means you are an ME that doesn't want to be nerfed and have to take "god forbid" music to learn music??"

Actually I thought I've made it clear that I am both a MM and a ME (and a novice dancer for that matter), as are/will be all the members of our band. Any change to what the ME gets wouldn't affect what we have access to.

"Probably come back with soemthing like "You take all the way to music 4 to get ME" yeah, yeah, lot of hard work there."

I've said several times in this thread alone how easy ME is to get.

"The simple fact that a marksman can get a song and instrument that a MM doesn't have should point that out."

I like the feigned ignorance... nice touch.

"The idea that a Master Medic should be creating Rancors while the Master Bio-Engineer cannot is ludicrious."

You're right, it is. And? If the medic could create other creatures in the basic line, however, there would be a prescedent for having them be able to create a unique creature in the master title.

The fact that some MMs would rather have mandoviol and ceremonial than the nalargon and virtuoso, well... who cares? Most would rather have what they get over the mandoviol and ceremonial, so... yea, who cares. heh

About "game balance". In a profession where what song/instrument you are playing has absolutely no impact on what you are doing (healing), this comes down to an issue of vanity. A master entertainer is no more powerful at doing what a musician does (healing) just because they get a song and instrument that MMs don't. In fact, master musicians are the masters of their profession: healing battle fatigue and mind wounds. The fact that some people are jealous of MEs, or upset that they would have to give up skills in another profession to get ME, is simply a matter of vanity, and has nothing to do with game balance. (I agree most of us take music for the songs and instruments... but those aren't relevant to game balance)

"Personally I think the bandfill (which is my favorite btw), nargalon, and mandoviolinshould be the top three instruments."

I'd agree to a point... those are the top three most unique instruments simply because the rest sound like slither/fizz, which we've all been playing for weeks now. This has been addressed however by the lead producer (I believe that's who it was) and he was going to look into the possibility of adding new sounds for those. I personally think that bandfill should be removed (hate to say it) so that the Ommni Box has a little more excitement to it when you get it. Of course,if they could split the drum set from the bass sound and make Ommni and Bandfill two unique instruments, that would be ideal.All of these sound changes would be getting into a major memory issue though I fear, which is most likely why this hadn't been done in the first place.

I wouldn't be worrying about this too much if just *have* to have a stringed instrument. The history of these games would let one predict that a new instrument, sounding like (or better) than the mandoviol will be given to the MM's, and then it will be the ME's who feel shortchanged.

Just be patient - you'll get your candy.

You don't understand Rommie... they'll still be pissed off because the new song they get won't sound as good as ceremonial to them... it won't stop.

A medic cannot create any creatures, which creates the precedence that ME should not have a song/instrument as they do. Not if they could create a creature there would be a precedence for ME. If we use ME as the precedence then we should by all means give the medics creature creation, scouts creature handling, and marksman bounty hunter abilities. That is why this is a balance issue.

It is game balance whether you choose to accept it or not. The vanity I see is that you choose to be right no matter what. As for adding another stringed instrument, that still does not solve the problem that the skill tree as now shown is not in line with every other skill tree model within the game.

And one more thought, the Bandfill was originally the better instrument to the Omnibox. Just prior to release, the devs created instrument certifications which is where the system got messed up to include the madoviolin being put in ME. This is about correcting a beta fix that did not get relooked at because of the beta ending before testing was properly done. This is about the fact that the description of MM as stated in the game is mastery of all songs and instruments. ALL, not most. The original design of the MM did include the mandoviolin, but does not now because of the quick fix that was installed.

"The vanity I see is that you choose to be right no matter what."

*snicker* and you said that with a straight face too, bravo!