Musician Archive
Thread: A Cvil request as to exactly how buffbots hut *you* as a player?
PoetDancer wrote:
See Jrock, I don't follow your advice, but I know a lot of dancers and musicians who do. And you know what? They are the ones who are hardest hit by the buffbots. They are the ones that are struggling trying to compete. Want to know why? Because when you try and duplicate an unattended character, the real live player tends to muck it up.
And I recommend to every musician here that if you want to get into the poor house and earn even less respect than you are currently, follow JRock's advice and start mimicing what buffbots do.
I have remained quite viable in the cantinas...even with buffbots. And the reason Ihave is because I do not try and sell "/" commands. If someone asks, I'll give it to them. But how can I sell something that is so worthlessthat unattended characters give them away?
Want to know the secret of my success JRock? I talk about anything but selling buffs when I'm at a cantina. I don't even go in there expecting to give away one "/" command. Now of course I'll give it when asked, but I'm not going to spam if I'm buffing. I'll leave it up to you and buffbots like you to do that bit.
In fact, one time I was at Dantooine Mining Outpost as an apprentice dancer between two buffbots. Nobody /watched me. Nevertheless I got 40k in tips for aboutone hour's play. Why is that JRock? Since you are such an expert in the entertaniment biz, why did I get tipped for giving no buffs and no BF healing, when you claim the only reason we are not successful is that we don't sell buffs?
PoetDancer wrote:
Of course I care about buffing, JRock. When someone asks for the "/" command, I give it no questions asked. But you see, I try and take great pains to create an atmosphere that is immersive, comforting, and fun. I don't think that constantly asking every customer who comes in the door if they'd like a buff or not is very condusive to that. I try to convey an atmosphere that is more pleasant than the outside of the starport or the bank, where everyone is hawking some sort of wares.
Because you see JRock, this profession more than any other is about getting tips out of customers who need not tip anything to us at all. And it takes a subtle type of method to do it well. Buffs? BF healing? How much effort are those really worth? Plenty. But its just not something patrons are willing to pay for. Nor should they if the act before them is boring and unintetresting.
The reason I get tipped is because patrons would rather see me or someone like me in the cantina than out doing other things. Because despite what many have assumed, the mechanics we give to players really have no relation to the amount we get tipped. I have buffed scores of players in a play session and received no tip. And I have also received a lot in a play session in terms of tips, and did not buff a single player. So why don't I like buffbots? I'll tell you.
They muck up my workspace. They change the entire atmosphere of the cantinas into something resembling the starport on a good day.
They give the impression to other players that this profession takes no skill. Which is obviously false. The mechanics take no skill to give, but that doesn't mean these professions when played live do not take skill. In fact, they are some of the most challenging professions in the game, because ultimately we have to convince players to tip us when they can get everything we have to give for free. That takes skill to do right.
Now I can tell you what change I'd really like in order to better compete with what you do. I have to admit, JRock, its not too popular with other live players, but I think it can help us and not even do a thing to your unattended entertainer.
I would like the protocol of /join or /setperform to be removed and make it so all a player need do is /watch or /listen. I want the ability to buff that 21st player who walks in the door. I want the ability to not even have players need to ask me if I'm buffing or not so I can concentrate my entire effort on being an amusing performer. If SOE could do that for me, I personally wouldhave a lot easier time accepting unattendence in my gameworld.
/Setperform and the group buff protocols are live entertainer nerfs, and arethe true buffbot protection racket. They are the things buffbots "give" that really shouldn't even need to be given by anyone at all--including live players. Because why should I have a gate placed upon how effective I can be with my limited online time, when buffbots disregard the protocols and make up for it with unlimited time? After all, buffbots merely give it away, and I do as well. So why not just make it so all a patron need do is either /listen or /watch? Make the system wholly passive like our healing function, instead of this system that cannot decide if it is active or passive, because all it really does is cause everyone a headache, buffbots included.
Because I can compete on a level playing field with you bots when the game is in the sphere it was back at launch. Because I never went into this thing to sell buffs. How can I when there is so much that I cannot control in the buffing process? I went into this thing to be entertaining, and I can more than compete on that level with a bot. What I can't compete with is to sell "/" authorizations. Because bots can give away more authorizations than I can by the mere fact that they have more time to give them away.
This is the real thing that makes buffbots so unbalancing. Because if any entertainer player thinks that at this juncture in time that /invite and /setperform are the things that make them economically viable and respectable, then why are buffbot ownerslaughing all the way to the bank by just giving them away? Its becausebuffbot ownersknow that they can buff up to 7491 players in a 23 hour span using a 3.5 minute buff macro for 19 players at a time under the current rules. With those kind of numbers, who cares if 99% of them do not tip?
The current buffing protocols of /setperform and /invite have no bearing on buffbots who have no real need to make the best use of their online time. It hurts players like us, who want to make the best use of our limited online time.
...And therefore, JRock, why should we have to accept caps on our service potential just to create a niche market for buffbots? Why can't we argue to SOE that if a buffbot is able to buff 7491 players in a day, we should have thepotential to buff 7491 in a day's active play, be it 437 over 3.5 hours, or all 7491 in 3.5 minutes? With those kind of numbers, I'd be so busy trying to amuse them all, that I'd be sure to miss a few. Then again, if I had a cantina full of 7491 players all /watching me at a given time, I'd be so thrilled at the experience I wouldn't care if I got tipped from them all.
So let's work to "deregulate" the buffbot market, JRock. Make it so the gates and protocols are not there, so we all can compete on the level of who is more amusing, rather than who can give away more "/" commands. Because you and I both know that a "/" command can be macroed, is worth nothing, and is the essential limited commodity everyone seems to want. And best of all, this will in no way affect your buffbot. Its worth a shot to ask SOE, no?
Just so everybody knows, this is the first post in any of the threads since I started posting on thisforum that has really offered a logical solution to the problem that didn't involve screwing some players over in favor of others.
See now we're getting somewhere. The idea of passive buffs is a good one. It breaks down the barriers of player's limited levels of knowledge of entertainer's intentions. Players wouldn't need to know if an entertainer was buffing or not because they were always buffing. Players wouldn't feel uncomfortable with the price negotiation process (whether it be internal over how much they should tip or external with the entertainer). Now this idea does have a couple problems, but they can be easily removed with a few other changes that I have wanted to see in the profession for a long time.
1). You don't know what level the entertainer is that you are listening/watching so you don't know if you are getting the master level buff you are looking to acquire.
Solution: Obviously the masters will wear their titles to indicate who they are, however the game system needs to be changed to allow overwriting of entertainer buffs, just like doctor buffs. This way if you accidentally get the wrong buff, you're not screwed for 2 hours or until you die. You can just listen to the right entertainer and the higher buff will overwrite the lower one. This has needed to be changed for a long time
2). There are different flourish macros that allow the buffs to be given in different time intervals. Technically you could say that using a flourish macro to give a buff in 3 minutes is an exploit, although there are a lot of entertainers that use it all the time.
Solution: Reduce the default timer for entertainer buffs and make it impossible to receive a buff in any shorter time period. I tend to think that 3 minutes to give a buff should be the standard, maybe even shorter. It has been ridiculous from the start that doctors can buff 6 stats in less time than entertainers can buff 1 or 2 stats. I think that there should bea certain level of imersion when you visit the cantina, but I also think that 10 minutes is way too long. I also believe that you should be able to receive dancer and musician buffs at the same time. There would have to be discussion on an acceptable time table, but right now, the default 10 minutes for dancing and 10 minutes for music is far too long to spend acquiring buffs. This has also been a reason why players go to buff-bots as usually the buff-bot knows the shorter bufftechnique and there is no way of knowing if the other entertainers also know this technique.
Now some of you may be looking at this idea and saying that it will just let the combat players get what they want, free buffs. Well the fact is that they are getting free buffs already. If any entertainer sees a patron constantly abusing their service, they can deny service. I would also argue for a couple more changes. First I think that deny service lists should work just like addignore lists. If an entertainer wants to deny service from a person, they should be denied service until the entertainer feels like taking them off that list. Also, I would be in favor of aUI that would allow entertainers to see which players were watching or listening to them at any given time. I'm not sure how difficult it would be the this to be implemented, but I believe it would be very helpful.
Let's roll with this idea, everybody who has been involved in this discussion should give their input.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 12:34 PM
Well look at this from you, Phrixus. One of those "radical ATK entertainers" is having a civil discussion with a pro-bot player (JRock), and itsanother pro-bot player who is coming here trying to make me look like "The Bad Guy."
If players like your unattended entertainer, that's great. Let me ask you though, if you couldn't make the server give away "/" commands like you do, would they still think your entertainer was great?
Let's put it to the test. Let's keep macros, since it is the only way you can make this unattended character do the kind of things it does. Let's make it soboth of uscan buff an unlimited number of patrons at a single time, like BF healing. Let's take away the need to /invite or /setperform in order to buff and make it require only /watch and /listen for a requisite amount of time. Let's make things more accessable to the patrons, and put ourselves in a realm where the sunum bonum of these professions is not how many successful "/" commands we give out, but based on other criteria. Its an easy enough change for them to implement, and it makes your buffbotmore effective.
But it also makes me more effective too. It will put me on the level of what you do. And then you'll be in a realm where this class is no longer about who can give the greatest amount of "/" commands. It will be about other things. And if after that, people still laude you with credits and admiration, then good for you.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 03:18 PM
PoetDancer wrote:
Well look at this from you, Phrixus. One of those "radical ATK entertainers" is having a civil discussion with a pro-bot player (JRock), and itsanother pro-bot player who is coming here trying to make me look like "The Bad Guy."
If players like your unattended entertainer, that's great. Let me ask you though, if you couldn't make the server give away "/" commands like you do, would they still think your entertainer was great?
Let's put it to the test. Let's keep macros, since it is the only way you can make this unattended character do the kind of things it does. Let's make it soboth of uscan buff an unlimited number of patrons at a single time, like BF healing. Let's take away the need to /invite or /setperform in order to buff and make it require only /watch and /listen for a requisite amount of time. Let's make things more accessable to the patrons, and put ourselves in a realm where the sunum bonum of these professions is not how many successful "/" commands we give out, but based on other criteria. Its an easy enough change for them to implement, and it makes your buffbotmore effective.
But it also makes me more effective too. It will put me on the level of what you do. And then you'll be in a realm where this class is no longer about who can give the greatest amount of "/" commands. It will be about other things. And if after that, people still laude you with credits and admiration, then good for you.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 03:18 PM
No, we are in fact not the same person, but yes we are in the same PA. Tierce (Jrock) runs his buffbot in is house, which is basically where we group together to pvp, loot hunt, trade, talk etc. I run my buffbot (Arakias) in the coronet cantina.
Poet,
I think that JRock and Phrixus are the same person. They speak in the same tone and reply to posts replied to the other. They both claim the same PA and server and each is a self proclaimed "Dark Lord" of something or another for what that is worth. They also both talk of "their" buffbot......I think we're talking about the same bot.
Just wanted to give you a heads up.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
No, Phrixus and I are different players, you can ask anybody on our server about that. We are in the same guild and we do have very similar views on how the game should function. We both have jedi toons and we both have an entertainer buff-bot. Mine has been functioning for months in my shop outside of Coronet. Phrixus started his up a week ago in the Coronet Cantina in an effort to make some credits. There had previously been a different buff-bot in the Coronet Cantina, but that person quit because they weren't getting enough tips. Our server functions a little different than some of yours do (based on what you have typed). There has really never been any master dancers/musicians that sold services in the Coronet Cantina. In fact this place has been filled mostly with hologrinders. The dedicated ATK entertainers left it a long time ago because they though the hologrinders spammed too much. They have since refused to make themselves conveniently located in Coronet, hence the necessity for buff-bots like mine and Phrixus'.
Fragpuppie wrote:
PoetDancer wrote:
Well look at this from you, Phrixus. One of those "radical ATK entertainers" is having a civil discussion with a pro-bot player (JRock), and itsanother pro-bot player who is coming here trying to make me look like "The Bad Guy."
Poet,
I think that JRock and Phrixus are the same person. They speak in the same tone and reply to posts replied to the other. They both claim the same PA and server and each is a self proclaimed "Dark Lord" of something or another for what that is worth. They also both talk of "their" buffbot......I think we're talking about the same bot.
Just wanted to give you a heads up.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
PoetDancer wrote:
No JRock, this proposal screws many players over. It screws the player who sets an unattended musician/dancer alt getting income from players to get on a /join list. It screws the player who sets an unattended musician/dancer alt by putting the buffbot in a house with an entrance fee. It screws a lot of the methods that buffbot owners use to manipulate who can and cannot receive mechanics from them, and limits their ability to make setting an unattended character a cash making proposition. That is what I want to stop over anything else.
Becauseeven though I think setting an unattended character is lazy andmost obtuse, Ican somewhat sympathize with a player who says they need to set an entertainer alt for the purposes of getting the mechanics. What I have absolutely no sympathy for is the fellow who came on these boards boasting about the money he makes by running the buffbot. Because I feel that a player has no right to profit from something that the system administers in lieu of play. Because honestly. If these things were really as valuable as players say they are, I would like to think that they would require more than allowing the robust macro system to administer these things for the entertainer who lets the system govern who it does and does not service.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 11-08-2004 12:34 PM
Ok, maybe I should have phrased that differently. It doesn't take anything away from any other players. By this I mean that all other players will still have the ability to conduct themselves in the manner which they already are. That gameplay style however may not be as beneficial as it had been before. I'm all about manipulating game systems in ways that would let ATK players have more of a competitive advantage, but not at the costs of taking away game systems that are currently in use by a multitude of other players. I guess when it comes down to it, my main motivation in these discussions is to help develop other solutions to the problem besides a push to end recursive macros. I don't think it is going to happen, but I shudder at the thought of it actually occurring. I've got so many recursive macros that I use for various situations that my gameplay would be significantly detrimented if they were removed from the game. I could care less if I could no longer use one to run my buff-bot. However not being able to constantly run a center of being macro, or a crafting macro, or an attack spamming macro or any of my squad leader macros would detriment my ATK play of many professions.
I think that the AFK player has the right to run their macro. I think it is unfortunate that their right to run that macro causes difficulties for ATK players. I think that a solution can be found to stop the harms to ATK players without taking away the abilities of the AFK player to run their macro. I think that the idea we that was presented by you and that I commented on from the previous page would be a far better solution for everybody.
PoetDancer wrote:
Well then this just shows what I have been thinking all along about buffbot supporters. Some of them just like the fact that they can get mechanics whenever they want. They have no malice toward the individuals who play these professions. They just want mechanics when they want them. These are players we can work with.
Other buffbot supporters are different. Its not that they like buffbots as much as they absolutely hate these professions, the people who play them, and will stop at nothing to drive the cantina feature out of the game. These are players who grudgingly accept the professoon as it is, but will not shed a tear if the cantina feature was removed. In fact, its their fondest wish.
Still other players who support buffbots see it as a way to make money off a second account by letting the system distribute the mechanics for them. They like things as they are because it allows them to be generous with things that they don't have to produce, namely, the things the system can grant out in lieu of play. They want the cantina feature to stay, and stay as it is currently. Because it allows them to produce a quantity of effective "/" commands, plus gives them considerable ways to deal with "free riders."
To the first group, we can find common ground. The second group we will never satisfy, but we can at least make it so they respect us, even if they don't like us. The third group no only disgusts us, but it disgusts many players who think that millions of credits deserve more than pressing F1.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=entertainer&message.id=13370
That's not a link to the actual thread he posted in, but it's a link to a thread which has everything he said quoted. It's easier than having to look through the very long thread for his three posts. If you do want to read the original post it's in the dancer forum. The title is something along the lines of 'I asked... and got my answer =('
Anyway, like I said I'm not trying to rub it in your face or anything, I just thought it would be something that interested you.
akothas wrote:
No, we are in fact not the same person, but yes we are in the same PA. Tierce (Jrock) runs his buffbot in is house, which is basically where we group together to pvp, loot hunt, trade, talk etc. I run my buffbot (Arakias) in the coronet cantina.
All you have to do is visit the Tempest boards to see we are in fact two different people.
I stand corrected.
As I do not play on Tempest and, from the understanding I get from your and JRock's posts, my playstyle is not preferred on Tempest, I do not read their forum. Thank you for the correction. I apologise.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra