Musician Archive
Thread: Do you guys want to totally kill afk Entertaining?
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:10 pm
#53
Ohh I do think that Entertainers can be fun to play. I do sit back and toy around with my songs and flourishes myself actually.
I'm just a little skeptical thatenough people who enjoy itremain, or that they will always be on.
Ok, I do think we talked this part into the ground. Let me take it in a slightly different direction. You hinted at it, but ironically, I was thinking of this earlier.
PVP
For many people this is an enjoyable part of the game, if they don't do it all the time, they do it often.
In aPVP world with 900 tic (yes 900) mind poisens, diseases, and head shots, 95% of PVP deaths are caused from loss of mind. You can't imagine how important both primary and secondary mind buffs are. Quite often we have vicious yet fun battles over turf, both sides dying and coming back to fight again.
The problem is this, when I die, I can be rebuffed. Yet my stomich stays full, no more Brandies or Canapes for me. This lowers my mind even more then before, making it much more possible that I may die again. At this point Entertainer buffs are even more important.
Currently this isn't a problem, many player city cantinas have afk buffbots, yes I know they are the spawn of Satan. However, these allow people to return back to the fight. How long do you think you will last in a fight with no mind buffs, or food?
As I said before, our guild has 9 doctors, yet only 3 Entertainers (all secondary accounts,) it's much more likely a Doc owner will be around thenan Entertainer owner.
Now I'm sure some will say, then recruit Entertainers, or people should take them on their mains. Sure that sounds good, but not many people are of that mindset or are willing to do that. Hell we can't evne get anybody to go Squad Leader 
When the fighting is heavy, you don't have the time nor ability to go searching for an Entertainer.
Xyrdre
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:28 pm
#54
I really wish that the combat balance hadn't been pushed back so far, as it is supposed to correct this gross problem of all PvP focusing entirely on the mind pool.
Realistically, the problems you address surrounding this Mind Warfare, as I have come to call it, is more the product of an extremely imbalanced combat system, and not a problem with a lack of AFK buffbots. Getting things away from this Mind Warfare will almost certainly reduce the seemingly mandatory pressures of having 24/7 buffs available at every point in space. Additionally, the fact that foods and drinks don't clear your stomach on death is (or certainlyshould be) considered a bug, and not a feature. Again, fix this, and the craze for buffbots may be lessened to a degree.
These aren't so much entertainer issues directly, though we are affected by them. Problems in other parts of the systems, to be sure.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:42 pm
#55
I agree with everything you said. That's the problem, so many things are entertwined, from an Entertainer point of view killing the AFK buffbots is great. Yet things arn't always that simple.
Vorpaks
Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:31 pm
#56
OMG... I have been trying to log on ALL FREAKIN DAY!!!
Sorry. A little Lithium induced rage there.
Straker said: Yet consider this, during these months of hologrinding, player cities have spread out more and more. People no longer congregate in just the main cities like they used too. Quite often, the only reaosn to go to a main city is for the Starport.
Well, all servers are different I guess. I have never seen a player city with a dedicated Doc buffing 24-7 so how people expect that there will be a dedicated Entertiner in every city is beyond me. Whenever I need to get any kind of buff on my combat character I go to Theed or Coro. Not the local player city. Radiant player cities are pretty quiet - even the ones on Dant. If I see more than one other person in them at a time I am surprised. In fact, since the hologrind started I would say the player base has actually CONSOLIDATED into a few NPC cities. Like Theed, Coro, Mos Eisley (I love that place) and perhaps Bestine. I rarely see anyone in the NPC cities and I rarely see anyone in the player cities. But perhaps Scylla is different.
Straker wrote: Now you may say that this is bad, people need to interact. They do, they just interact out there. Player cities have added to the problem.
Well personally I wouldn't say that. People can do what they like, interact with their Entertainer or not. What I DO say is that Entertainers who want to play Entertainers should have a fun, enjoyable experience. A viable profession. They are telling people that buff bots ruin this experience and basically make them feel miserable about their choice of profession and the game in general. The convenience that it gives the rest of the players to have 24-7 buffs available does not justify ruining three professions in my mind.
Straker wrote: Yet even if that live Entertainer played 8 hours a day, what about the other 15?
Same argument as above. I've read this particular justification over and over and over and over. I still don't see how people can justify exploiting someone else's profession to the point that it is unplayable for a lot of people, just so they don't have to work as hard at not dying.
Basically Entertainers have made it very clear that bots and afk zombies make their gameplay unenjoyable. Many of them look at the customers that these bots suck off, the spam they generate, and how they are basically the antithesis of what SWG Entertainers are supposed to be and they are MISERABLE because of it. Many have left the game specifically because of it. They have told everyone who will listen this loud and clear. If you know this and create or use a buff bot, you are purposefully hurting someone else. Purposefully making someone e;se's gameplay unenjoyable. Just so you can have a little more convenience at the snap of your fingers. For me this is unacceptable behavior. Plain and simple. They find this bahavior hurtful. You KNOW they find this bahavior hurtful. So stop doing it.
I actually made this point clearer in another post... but it has been a long day lol, so I may be rambling a bit. Sorry if any of that come out overly negative.
When I say "you" throughout the post I am using it in a general sense for anyone who may be reading. You (specifically directed at Straker) have been very reasonable in all your posts. Hehe. Hmmmmm.... maybe a little TOO reasonable. (suspicious) You wouldn't happen to be a technical writer would you? 
Be aware, stating unreasonable arguments in a reasonable way does not make the arguments themselves reasonable.
Okay... now I will attempt to edit in colors. I applogize if it goes horribly awry.
EDIT: *GASP!!! I did it!!! I did it!! I diiiid it!!! +Happy+ My one big accomplishment for the day. My life is so sad.
Sorry. A little Lithium induced rage there.
Straker said: Yet consider this, during these months of hologrinding, player cities have spread out more and more. People no longer congregate in just the main cities like they used too. Quite often, the only reaosn to go to a main city is for the Starport.
Well, all servers are different I guess. I have never seen a player city with a dedicated Doc buffing 24-7 so how people expect that there will be a dedicated Entertiner in every city is beyond me. Whenever I need to get any kind of buff on my combat character I go to Theed or Coro. Not the local player city. Radiant player cities are pretty quiet - even the ones on Dant. If I see more than one other person in them at a time I am surprised. In fact, since the hologrind started I would say the player base has actually CONSOLIDATED into a few NPC cities. Like Theed, Coro, Mos Eisley (I love that place) and perhaps Bestine. I rarely see anyone in the NPC cities and I rarely see anyone in the player cities. But perhaps Scylla is different.
Straker wrote: Now you may say that this is bad, people need to interact. They do, they just interact out there. Player cities have added to the problem.
Well personally I wouldn't say that. People can do what they like, interact with their Entertainer or not. What I DO say is that Entertainers who want to play Entertainers should have a fun, enjoyable experience. A viable profession. They are telling people that buff bots ruin this experience and basically make them feel miserable about their choice of profession and the game in general. The convenience that it gives the rest of the players to have 24-7 buffs available does not justify ruining three professions in my mind.
Straker wrote: Yet even if that live Entertainer played 8 hours a day, what about the other 15?
Same argument as above. I've read this particular justification over and over and over and over. I still don't see how people can justify exploiting someone else's profession to the point that it is unplayable for a lot of people, just so they don't have to work as hard at not dying.
Basically Entertainers have made it very clear that bots and afk zombies make their gameplay unenjoyable. Many of them look at the customers that these bots suck off, the spam they generate, and how they are basically the antithesis of what SWG Entertainers are supposed to be and they are MISERABLE because of it. Many have left the game specifically because of it. They have told everyone who will listen this loud and clear. If you know this and create or use a buff bot, you are purposefully hurting someone else. Purposefully making someone e;se's gameplay unenjoyable. Just so you can have a little more convenience at the snap of your fingers. For me this is unacceptable behavior. Plain and simple. They find this bahavior hurtful. You KNOW they find this bahavior hurtful. So stop doing it.
I actually made this point clearer in another post... but it has been a long day lol, so I may be rambling a bit. Sorry if any of that come out overly negative.
When I say "you" throughout the post I am using it in a general sense for anyone who may be reading. You (specifically directed at Straker) have been very reasonable in all your posts. Hehe. Hmmmmm.... maybe a little TOO reasonable. (suspicious) You wouldn't happen to be a technical writer would you? Be aware, stating unreasonable arguments in a reasonable way does not make the arguments themselves reasonable.Okay... now I will attempt to edit in colors. I applogize if it goes horribly awry.
EDIT: *GASP!!! I did it!!! I did it!! I diiiid it!!! +Happy+ My one big accomplishment for the day. My life is so sad.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 07-19-2004 05:36 PM
Beery
Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:23 pm
#57
"As much as it pains me, until a live Entertainer is ready to take my place, or somewhere nearby, I really don't want to make things harder for my guild."
Well, the sad thing is that you don't see that your actionsmake it harder for entertainers to stay on Scylla. This affects the whole server, and it will make your guild's gameplay experience that much shallower.If you can't see it, too bad. Eventually you'll reap what you sow.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:48 pm
#58
What Entertainers? In all of our discussions here, name one Scylla entertainer that has stepped up and said, Straker, I'm always playing here, or there. Or I'll come to your cantina if you want. I don't know a single person who makes their living from Entertaining.
I'm shallow because I want my friends to get as much out of their hunting time? The reality is that if I didn't do it, they would probably need to use another bot. Yes bots killed Entertainers, fine I agree, but until real Entertainers come back, I'm not going to leave my friends hanging.
Beery
Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:03 pm
#59
Man, a bunch of us have tried to enlighten you. You just don't want to listen. I'm washing my hands of it. You want to ruin peoples' game with a buffbot, go right ahead. You claim youknow it's harmful to certain players, yet you do it anyway, just so that you and your guildmates can make a bit more money each time you go on safari.
The reasonable person, seeing that an activity he's involved with is harmful, stops the activity. You, on the other hand,see that an activity is harmful and,instead of stopping, you go right ahead - but you try to convince the people you're hurting that the activity is harmless. That is the way of thesociopath.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-19-2004 07:13 PM
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:19 pm
#60
Beery wrote:
Man, a bunch of us have tried to enlighten you. You just don't want to listen. I'm washing my hands of it. You want to ruin peoples' game with a buffbot, go right ahead. You claim youknow it's harmful to certain players, yet you do it anyway, just so that you and your guildmates can make a bit more money each time you go on safari.
The reasonable person, seeing that an activity he's involved with is harmful, stops the activity. You, on the other hand,see that an activity is harmful, and instead of stopping, you go right ahead - but you try to convince the people you're hurting that the activity is harmless. That is the way of thesociopath.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-19-2004 07:05 PM
I sometimes wonder if you actually read what I post. If you had read them, you would see that I am elightened, I just don't agree with everything.
You claim that there are no Entertainers around, they have all left the game. You have said it over and over again. If this is true, what are people supposed to do? I'm supposed to take my bot down, so that they are forced to go use somebody elses bot? What sense does that make. Make up your mind, are their live Entertainers or not?
My buffbot is in our player cantina, which is 5k from the nearest Starport on dant, yea that makes me a sociopath.
You claim that I'm hurting other players (you,) well guess what my friends are players too. What makes your time more valuable then theirs? They are living breathing people, I know them, I don't know a single Entertainer on our server, I wish I did. Nice dig about making money on our safari's, **edit** does that have to do about anything? My buffbot has nothing to do with money, for them or me, it has to do with time. Why should they spend 30 minutes every hour to go meet some Entertainer that they don't even know will be there?
Then after complaining that Entertainer people are more important then "my people" you talk about hurting the proffession. Guess what, I'm a musician too, I AM that profession as well. I did most of it ATK as well. Also 75% of my game time is with her. Sure I'm making droids, but I also do a lot of Entertaining. ATK type, guess what, I don't make a credit doing it.
I came here in peace, talking logic, tryingto see both sides, wanting things better. Not insulting just talking. Yet everytime I turn around you try and insult me.
I apologize to the community in general for the tone of this last post, he got under my skin some.
Does anybody else out there understand what I am saying?
Vorpaks
Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:21 pm
#61
Straker_Atrella wrote:Well honestly, our player city is probably a lot more active then some others. We have about 30-35 people who actually play quite often. We also use a voice program to talk. No a Doc is not standing there 24/7 to buff people but at pretty much any time of day, somebody with access to a Doc is on, every 3 hours somebody logs in to buff people.Well as much as you may hate me, I still run my bot in our cantina, I sympathize with you, but really don't feel like I am griefing anybody. Last night at primetime, I went to Coronet Cantina, and stood there and watched a bit. I didn't see a single "live" person selling mind buffs. Mobs and Mobs of afk people were trying of grind though of course.Currently as people run missions out of our town, they simply walk 30 feet into our cantina, and kill BF quickly or get a buff. I just don't feel certain that if I turn my bot off, that it would be worth it. People would need to drive 5k to the outpost, wait for a shuttle, get to Coronet, maybe or maybe not find a Live Entertainer, if not, they use AFK people there anyway. Then come back to our town for more missions. All in all, you could be talking 30 minutes round trip. They should do that every hour?As much as it pains me, until a live Entertainer is ready to take my place, or "somewhere nearby, I really don't want to make things harder for my guild. So yes it may seem I am "griefing" 3 professions, I would feel like I was griefing real people I talk to every day.
I'm sorry you misunderstood me. To quote myself from a previous post:
"Personally I don't have a problem with people having a secondary account to buff themselves or their friends."
"People going afk in a public (NPC) cantina I do care about."
Maybe for a week you might try playing a full-on Entertainer. Play in the public cantinas. Interact with all the customers who come in. Lure them into getting their buffs from you rather than an NPC buffer. Come to the Bria Cantina Crawl on Friday. Visit Windspire Entertainment and see how active some of the other Scylla entertainers are.
I appologise if my last post was too harsh or seemed like it was aimed directly at you. From the tone of your post it sounds like I managed to hurt your feelings and I did not mean to do so.
Amythen
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:08 pm
#62
I'll give you one guess why this is so.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I'm just a little skeptical thatenough people who enjoy itremain, or that they will always be on.
Straker_Atrella
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:24 pm
#63
Omg it ate my post, cry. Was very long, nice and organized. sigh, maybe again later.
I don't dispute that AFK helped kill Entertainers.
Something needs done to bring back the Entertainers FIRST, then kill the afk bots.
Aleyo
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:36 pm
#64
Straker_Atrella wrote:Something needs done to bring back the Entertainers FIRST, then kill the afk bots.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=musician&message.id=16449
Amythen
Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:37 pm
#65
Straker_Atrella wrote:
You claim that I'm hurting other players (you,) well guess what my friends are players too. What makes your time more valuable then theirs? They are living breathing people, I know them, I don't know a single Entertainer on our server, I wish I did. Nice dig about making money on our safari's, **edit** does that have to do about anything? My buffbot has nothing to do with money, for them or me, it has to do with time. Why should they spend 30 minutes every hour to go meet some Entertainer that they don't even know will be there?
Then after complaining that Entertainer people are more important then "my people" you talk about hurting the proffession. Guess what, I'm a musician too, I AM that profession as well. I did most of it ATK as well. Also 75% of my game time is with her. Sure I'm making droids, but I also do a lot of Entertaining. ATK type, guess what, I don't make a credit doing it.
I came here in peace, talking logic, tryingto see both sides, wanting things better. Not insulting just talking. Yet everytime I turn around you try and insult me.
Okay, I'll let you in on an entertainer's secret. Simply asking, "why is AFK entertainment so bad?" Is about as insulting to many entertainers, including myself, as anything anyone here has said. They amount to fighting words, truth be told.
I have to ask a few questions of you before Iconsider my input to really be worth my while, so if you want to, you can indulge me.
- Do you think inconveniencing other entertainers with AFK entertainment is the right answer to you, and your friends inconvenience?
- Do you think loot farmers are a unintrusive playstyle?
- How many entertainers do you think create kill-bots?
- How many AFK entertainers do you think have combat -oriented alts?
- Would you think is an okay way to play?
- How much do you really care about how much fun your friends are having?
- Would you care if you were afecting one of your friends ability to have fun with their style of gameplay?
Answer those honestly, and then I will answer the question in the subjectof your original post, a rebuttal to your answers, and as much information I can give you to aid in your information seeking. All of which will be as civil as I tried to keep this post. If you cannot answer those questions, I simply will give your information quest as much dignity as AFK enterainment does to live entertainers, none.
Message Edited by Amythen on 07-19-2004 08:44 PM