Musician Archive
Thread: Do you guys want to totally kill afk Entertaining?
Straker, no, I don't want afk bots allowed in Player Cities only. I want afk play gone for all professions. I really do think the idea of being able to afk at all is really at odds with the idea of "playing" this or any game in any way. In my mind afk and play are mutually exclusive properties.
However, since the devs are relcuctant to back off the robust nature of the macro systemt they created to kill afk play as it would make sense to me a compromise may be the only thing we can do. In light of that, I would like to see the following implemented...as proposed by U'tess:
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The Entertainer Window
This would be a new interface window that you would have access to upon taking up novice entertainer. The window would be similar to the "group member" window in design and how it looked. Here is how it works:
1) Any time a player watches or listens to you their name would pop up in the window.
2) Underneath the player's name would be 3 buttons:
Heal: This button allows us to heal wounds and battle fatigue on a player at our "maximum" capability. We still heal without having to click the button but *only* at novice entertainer levels. To fully heal the player at full speed, you click the heal button.
Buff: This button starts a buff on the player. Only one non-grouped player can have a buff on them at a time. All group players can also have a buff inititiated on them.
Deny: This button would cause all services to be denied to the player(even basic Novice entertainer healing)
3) None of these buttons would have /commands. It would be like clicking accept or refuse on an ID offer. This would prevent these commands from being macroed by afk bots.
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This idea is a middle of the road one, and a compromise. ATK entertainers would be superior in their ability and speed in healing people. It kills the bots that actively hurt our buffing business. On the other hand, an afk performer is still able to do a rudimentery service of healing battle fatigue should there be nobody else around. Therefore, the fighter types can go out still and enjoy their two hours before server shutdown, as you bring up in your examples. The only things I'd like to see added would be the removal of the autojoin command as well. I think that would be the final nail in the coffin for the bots.
Incidently, I am also a fighter type. I am presently working my way up the TK tree so that I can experience that part of the game as well. Obviously, I am never without the abiilty to kill battle fatigue at a fast rate. However, I can't always get the Doctor buffs I want. When that happens I usually go out and kill smaller stuff until I can get some buffs. I do practice what I preach.
I am, however, a Musican first and everything else second so I wont be a TKM for probably a couple months yet, and that is ok by me.Most of the time I'm performing with friends when I'm online or buffing guildmates. To make some additional money I'll go and buff in a large public cantina like Theed. I also make a point to pick an out of the way outpost and perform there. It is usually quite a welcome reception I get, too, and I like that alot.
Shaizann wrote:
...and we're back...
Straker, no, I don't want afk bots allowed in Player Cities only. I want afk play gone for all professions. I really do think the idea of being able to afk at all is really at odds with the idea of "playing" this or any game in any way. In my mind afk and play are mutually exclusive properties.
However, since the devs are relcuctant to back off the robust nature of the macro systemt they created to kill afk play as it would make sense to me a compromise may be the only thing we can do. In light of that, I would like to see the following implemented...as proposed by U'tess:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Entertainer Window
This would be a new interface window that you would have access to upon taking up novice entertainer. The window would be similar to the "group member" window in design and how it looked. Here is how it works:
1) Any time a player watches or listens to you their name would pop up in the window.
2) Underneath the player's name would be 3 buttons:
Heal: This button allows us to heal wounds and battle fatigue on a player at our "maximum" capability. We still heal without having to click the button but *only* at novice entertainer levels. To fully heal the player at full speed, you click the heal button.
Buff: This button starts a buff on the player. Only one non-grouped player can have a buff on them at a time. All group players can also have a buff inititiated on them.
Deny: This button would cause all services to be denied to the player(even basic Novice entertainer healing)
3) None of these buttons would have /commands. It would be like clicking accept or refuse on an ID offer. This would prevent these commands from being macroed by afk bots.
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This idea is a middle of the road one, and a compromise. ATK entertainers would be superior in their ability and speed in healing people. It kills the bots that actively hurt our buffing business. On the other hand, an afk performer is still able to do a rudimentery service of healing battle fatigue should there be nobody else around. Therefore, the fighter types can go out still and enjoy their two hours before server shutdown, as you bring up in your examples. The only things I'd like to see added would be the removal of the autojoin command as well. I think that would be the final nail in the coffin for the bots.
Incidently, I am also a fighter type. I am presently working my way up the TK tree so that I can experience that part of the game as well. Obviously, I am never without the abiilty to kill battle fatigue at a fast rate. However, I can't always get the Doctor buffs I want. When that happens I usually go out and kill smaller stuff until I can get some buffs. I do practice what I preach.
Most of the time I'm performing with friends when I'm online or buffing guildmates. To make some additional money I'll go and buff in a large public cantina like Theed. I also make a point to pick an out of the way outpost and perform there. It is usually quite a welcome reception I get, too, and I like that alot.
I fully support that idea. The only thing I think that could / should be improved with be to give the customers something.Make it so when the "buff" button is hitpeople get say a 3 hour buff and not the standard 2.
However, here is the problem. It lies in the main reason the macro system was integrated into the game in the first place.
Mouseclick pointer programs exist, they are easy to use.AFK buffbots would still exist. People would just use 3rd party applications. Are they illegal? Hell yes. Because of this many people (including myself,) wouldn't use them. Yet some would. Just like some people use them to grind crafting professions. The edge that 3rd party apscan give you, iswhy the macro system was added to begin with. Anything that can be clicked can be doneby a 3rdparty ap.
The only way a system such as the above would be foolproof is if a box with random numbers appeared, asking the musician to enter those numbers.
While I like the above system, I am a huge fan of giving love and not nerfing. Use what you suggested agaove (sorta,) but keep the afk buffbots levels as they are. Yet make buffs done using your "window" be better then without.
After all, doc buffs last 3+ hours, would it be so terrible to add an hour to Entertainer buffs? You don't NEED to nerf buff bots (no matter how much you hate them,) just make people want to use live Entertainers more.
I use quotation marks to make quotes easy to see (it's standard usage), and I hate coloured streaks of text. But since you've posted in red, and since this post is going to be extremely long, I'll humour you.
"However, lets go back to my origional point. AFK bots are gone, it's 2 am PST. After looking for 30 minutes, he finally finds somebody. That person type /diagnose and see that the guy has 500 mind wounds and 800 battle fatigue. He then chuckles to himself. "Sure I'll dance for you, 200k." He knows nobody else is around. He knows the guy can't do anything currently, so is caught between a rock and a hard place. The guy can choose to pay 200k, or just log 2 hours early."
Or he can play without the heal, or heal himself at the default slow rate. There's absolutely nothing wrong witha player demanding a huge fee for a rare service at a time when demand is high and supply very low- nothingwhatsoever. This is capitalism in action. You might not like it (heck, I don't really like it), but if this player wasn't there you'd have even less choice.
"The "idiot" entertainer has nothing to lose, he may actually make 200k. You may not do this, I never said you would, but there are htose out there who will. Doctors already do it."
As I say, there's nothing wrong with it. I don't do it, but then again I'm no capitalist, but this game is set up with capitalism as its basis. I find it hard to role play to that extent, but others don't.
"You believe in supply and demand I guess. Yet there is also such a thing as price gouging."
Yes there is. But there's nothing wrong with that, and it has an impeccableprecedent. Han Solo demanded an extortionate price for taking Luke and Obi-Wan to Alderaan.
"I'm missing the main reason that Entertainers don't buff? Please explain it to me.
Many entertainers want to buff, but there are numerous reasons why they don't, or can't. I explained the main reasons in my previous post, but here's a more detailed assessment from an earlier contribution I made elsewhere:
1. Buffing is hard to learn - there is no buffing guide in the official game documents. Try to find one in the current manual. It's not there. If you want to buff, you have to track down secondary sources. Some players can't be bothered to do this, and who can blame casual players (who just want to have fun) for that?
2. There's the matter of creating a macro for buffing. Buffing is hard to do. It requires a lot of things to be managed. You need to get confirmation that the buffee is ready and listening: You need to flourish at a certain rate; You need to time the buff; You need to inform the buffee when the buff is done. All of these things require at least three macros (I use 5 - yes 5!), otherwise you find yourself flirting with carpal tunnel syndrome as you: 1, explain the buff process and ask for confirmation that the buffee is doing his job; 2, start the mechanics (flourishing) of the buff; and finally time the buff and tell the customer to stop listening. This is a lot of bureaucratic work, and games shouldn't involve that sort of work.
3. There's a trust issue. Both buffer and buffee have to trust each other. The buffer never knows for sure if a buff worked or not, so it is open to abuse. Some players simply don't want to get into a fight about money or lay themselves open to abuse.
4. There's the payment issue. Does the buffer ask for payment up front, or does he rely on tips? Given the fact that the end result is unknown, how can a buffer demand payment when the buff might not take. On the other hand, given that players tend not to tip at all, or if they do, they often tip poorly, how do you not demand payment if you want to make a living? Given these things, some feel it's better not to get involved in the first place.
5. Finally, buffing is rare because only Masters can do it properly. Non-masters can only buff at 75% power, and then (because the tech branch is usually the last one attempted by dancers and musicians) only if they have every skill box but one in the Musician tree. Every skill but two gives a 50% buff, and every skill but three gives a 25% buff (which probably isn't worth the time to get at all). That means there's a limited window during a player's involvement in the musician (or dancer) profession where buffing CAN be done. With the best intentions, musicians and dancers will only be able to buff about 5% of the time that they're involved in the profession. Then, when they become masters, the game has so little content aimed at master cantina-based entertainers that many of them soon go on to explore different aspects of the game (and who can blame them?). This cuts down the availability of buffs even more.
In my opinion it's amazing, given the above considerations, that anyone buffs at all. If the sort of intricate mechanics involved in the buff process were expected of combat professions to fulfill one of their social obligations, the task simply wouldn't get done at all. Just imagine if tipping required 3 macros and 3 minutes to accomplish. Only entertainers, with their inherent social sense (and lack of alternative money-making options), are willing to do this kind of work.
Everybody else seems to argue that Entertainers WANT to buff, yet are competing with AFK macros. So you believe that if AFK macros were removed, people around the galaxie would drop other professions and become Entertainers?"
I have no illusions that the removal of AFK macroers would significantly increase entertainer populations. The real problem is not AFKing. The real problem with the entertainer professions is one you have illustrated. Combat orientated players don't regard entertainers as worthy of equal regard in the game. Combat players have the unusual notion that this game is all about combat, and that non-combat professions are there purely as support.
"Since you don't think this fits my ponit, let me make it clearer. Battle Fatigue is FORCED on people, they have no choice. If they wish to keep fighting or crafting, they simply MUST lose their battle fatigue. If they can't find an Entertainer to kill their BF, they CANNOT play."
You are absolutely right. The game forces lots of things on players. It forces them to take damage; it forces them to make money if they want to buy stuff. This is called game mechanics. It is a tool by which players are made to act in a way that works within the game's theme. If you don't like the mechanics, you are probably playing a game that is not suited to your playstyle.
"How can finding an Entertainer to kill your BF, not have anythingto do with my point?"
I'm no longer sure what your overall point is.
"Ok now I am totally confused, so your saying that now it is currently HARD to get buffs? Everybody else seems to be screaming that afk buffbots are everywhere. Nobody in my guild has a problem gettin buffs or killing BF, they walk into the cantina and hit the AFK musician or entertainer."
So what are you complaining about? Your entire last post seemed to indicate that you found it hard to get buffs, yet now you're saying it's easy.
"That last paragraph made it seem like you think that AFK buffbots are good. Buffs are hard to get, buffbots make them easier."
AFK buffbots are bad because they cause ATK entertainers to leave the profession. The ease of use they offer to combat-oriented players is irrelevant.This is not simply a matter of the combat professions getting their wants provided. We're talking aboutthe game's long-term existence. Buffbots are not only a threat to the entertainer professions. They area threat to the game's veryexistence. If you don't see that, you are looking at the problem from a very narrow, short-sightedand self-centred perspective.
"It is clear that you believe that the Entertainer professions should be better and more playable. Good lord, I agree with you. Make them awesome and fun. If that is done right, there will be no need for AFK bots. However, until that is done, removing AFK bots wont fix the problem (which is what this post was about.)"
The original post posed the question of whether we entertainers wanted to kill AFK entertaining. You assume 'the problem' is that buffs are hard to come by. That is only one facet of the problem. While that facet is important to you, there are much larger issues at stake.
"Oh, and the attitude that we're 'idiots' for charging for our service isn't exactly going to make entertainers want to provide you the service for free - or at all, so I wouldn't go around saying that too much if I were you."
"That isn't what I meant, and you know it wasn't what I meant. So please don't try and twist what I said in the hopes people will think I insulted anybody.
Apart from the fact that you didn't exactly make it clear that you were only talking about those whomassively inflated prices, it is neverthelessexactly what you meant, and it is still an insult even if it's only meant to apply to a small minority of players. The fact that you only intended to insult a few individuals who massively inflate prices doesn't change the fact that your vague assertions about 'idiots overcharging' made it unclear as to what you considered extortion. Thus yourinsult could easily have been interpreted as aimed at very many more entertainers than you intended. Anyway, your (clarified) point is that you think charging 100K for a buff is wrong when buffs are in extremely short supply. I disagree. You assumed I thought you meant that charging 10K or 5K, or a 'reasonable' amountfor a buff was wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. You are indeed insulting people. You are insultingthose who choose to price their services by the laws of supply and demand. We ALL do this to some extent.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 11:52 AM
I do not at all like the idea of keeping buff bots in game. They hurt our business environment and our business itself. Curtailing their ability is the only compromise that would make sense to me and still allow for their existense. That is how I see it.
Beery wrote:
"Beery, if your going to line by line, please change font colors, so it is easier to see."
I use quotation marks to make quotes easy to see (it's standard usage), and I hate coloured streaks of text. But since you've posted in red, and since this post is going to be extremely long, I'll humour you.
"Have you ever been on 2 hours before shutdown, then went looking for a Doc buff, only to find one "idiot," saying he will buff you for 100k?"
This is no idiot. He is a shrewd businessman. Supply and demand. If you're not willing to pay, don't get the buff, or wait until it's available at a more reasonable price. It's the same with any business, within the game or in real life.
I 100% disagree. I am a DE as well, I fully understand supply and demand, try having an almost non-existante resale market. Also price gouging is illegal in real life. For example remember, if there is a large disaster, or power outage or something like that, it is ILLEGAL for stores to jack up prices for things that are neccessities.
There are also rules against monopolies and such. Supply and demand is one thing, price gouging is another.
"...I have. I have also seen people charge crazy high fees to cure a simple disease. Yet, a buff is a right, you can get by without it."
A buff is not a right. It is a luxury, just as a fast heal is a luxury. Your only right is to get the slow heal that a cantina or hospital gives. You have no right to anything more than that, and you shouldn't expect it or demand it. You should ask for it, politely. Sure, that's a hard pill to swallow for someone who gets massive wounds, but your problem is your attitude towards heals and buffs. You think they should be yours by right, but that's not how the game is set up.
I agree a buff is not a right, it is a luxury. You can play without buffs, you can craft without buffs. You can even play with HA wounds WITH buffs. There are many alternatives to sitting in a med center if no Doctors are around. Most people have novice medic, they can use wound packs,and they can use Tendwound. With so many people having novice medic, wounds can be healed by many. Hell lots of people pick up just the first column of TKA simply so they can heal wounds, poisen, and disease themselves quickly.
What are your options for BF? Short list.
Since BF is FORCED on you, sometimes at a very rapid pace, it is your RIGHT to get it removed. You can receive enough BF in a single hour to not be able to function. People pay to PLAY the game, not to hunt for 1 hour, then sit in the cantina the next. Having so few options to kill BF is a large part of the problem.
"However, lets go back to my origional point. AFK bots are gone, it's 2 am PST. After looking for 30 minutes, he finally finds somebody. That person type /diagnose and see that the guy has 500 mind wounds and 800 battle fatigue. He then chuckles to himself. "Sure I'll dance for you, 200k." He knows nobody else is around. He knows the guy can't do anything currently, so is caught between a rock and a hard place. The guy can choose to pay 200k, or just log 2 hours early."
Or he can play without the heal, or heal himself at the default slow rate. There's absolutely nothing wrong witha player demanding a huge fee for a rare service at a time when demand is high and supply very low- nothingwhatsoever. This is capitalism in action. You might not like it (heck, I don't really like it), but if this player wasn't there you'd have even less choice.
Yes there is, see price gouging above. With JTL speed coming out, we will probably see more new people. Do you really want a new persons first interaction with an Entertainer to be with an "idiot." How much do you think he will like the game if he plays for a couple of hours, then finds he can't hit anything and keeps getting hit. He then notices he has 600 BF, figuring that may be the problem he seeks a Performer. The only one he can find wants to charge him 5 times more money then he even owns.
How much do you think he will like the game then? Price gouging will happen, it's even legal, doesn't mean it is good for the game or even Entertainers.
"The "idiot" entertainer has nothing to lose, he may actually make 200k. You may not do this, I never said you would, but there are htose out there who will. Doctors already do it."
As I say, there's nothing wrong with it. I don't do it, but then again I'm no capitalist, but this game is set up with capitalism as its basis. I find it hard to role play to that extent, but others don't.
"You believe in supply and demand I guess. Yet there is also such a thing as price gouging."
Yes there is. But there's nothing wrong with that, and it has an impeccableprecedent. Han Solo demanded an extortionate price for taking Luke and Obi-Wan to Alderaan.
It's good that laws exist in real life to prevent this mentallity. Han Solo demanded an extortionate price becausse he was the best and the fastest. There was an entire bar full of pilots to choose from. They choose to pay it because they wanted the best and the fastest. Hell most of it wasn't even their money.
It would have been totally different if Han was just as slow and sucky as the others, yet was the only one in the bar.
Your trying to put movie ideas and real life into the game. It doesn't work.SOE needs to ensure that the game is playable by the combatent and the entertainer, the rich and the poor, the noob and the old schooler.
"I'm missing the main reason that Entertainers don't buff? Please explain it to me.
Many entertainers want to buff, but there are numerous reasons why they don't, or can't. I explained the main reasons in my previous post, but here's a more detailed assessment from an earlier contribution I made elsewhere:
1. Buffing is hard to learn - there is no buffing guide in the official game documents. Try to find one in the current manual. It's not there. If you want to buff, you have to track down secondary sources. Some players can't be bothered to do this, and who can blame casual players (who just want to have fun) for that?
2. There's the matter of creating a macro for buffing. Buffing is hard to do. It requires a lot of things to be managed. You need to get confirmation that the buffee is ready and listening: You need to flourish at a certain rate; You need to time the buff; You need to inform the buffee when the buff is done. All of these things require at least three macros (I use 5 - yes 5!), otherwise you find yourself flirting with carpal tunnel syndrome as you: 1, explain the buff process and ask for confirmation that the buffee is doing his job; 2, start the mechanics (flourishing) of the buff; and finally time the buff and tell the customer to stop listening. This is a lot of bureaucratic work, and games shouldn't involve that sort of work.
3. There's a trust issue. Both buffer and buffee have to trust each other. The buffer never knows for sure if a buff worked or not, so it is open to abuse. Some players simply don't want to get into a fight about money or lay themselves open to abuse.
4. There's the payment issue. Does the buffer ask for payment up front, or does he rely on tips? Given the fact that the end result is unknown, how can a buffer demand payment when the buff might not take. On the other hand, given that players tend not to tip at all, or if they do, they often tip poorly, how do you not demand payment if you want to make a living? Given these things, some feel it's better not to get involved in the first place.
5. Finally, buffing is rare because only Masters can do it properly. Non-masters can only buff at 75% power, and then (because the tech branch is usually the last one attempted by dancers and musicians) only if they have every skill box but one in the Musician tree. Every skill but two gives a 50% buff, and every skill but three gives a 25% buff (which probably isn't worth the time to get at all). That means there's a limited window during a player's involvement in the musician (or dancer) profession where buffing CAN be done. With the best intentions, musicians and dancers will only be able to buff about 5% of the time that they're involved in the profession. Then, when they become masters, the game has so little content aimed at master cantina-based entertainers that many of them soon go on to explore different aspects of the game (and who can blame them?). This cuts down the availability of buffs even more.
In my opinion it's amazing, given the above considerations, that anyone buffs at all. If the sort of intricate mechanics involved in the buff process were expected of combat professions to fulfill one of their social obligations, the task simply wouldn't get done at all. Just imagine if tipping required 3 macros and 3 minutes to accomplish. Only entertainers, with their inherent social sense (and lack of alternative money-making options), are willing to do this kind of work.
Your kidding right? It took me 5 minutes to find out how to buff. About 1 minute to makea macro to do it. I very rarely have problems with people not getting a buff, if they do, they just get another. I don't charge anything, I don't even expect or want tips. So that simplifies those problems for me.
Now don't get me wrong, I certainly think the whole buffing system needs a revamp, I can definitly see how the above listed would be more of a problem for people trying to make a living off of performing.
I do feel thatanybody who is serious about being an Entertainer can overcome all of those options. The reason more people don't is because because there is so little meat and content to the profession, which is something that certainly needs fixed.
Everybody else seems to argue that Entertainers WANT to buff, yet are competing with AFK macros. So you believe that if AFK macros were removed, people around the galaxie would drop other professions and become Entertainers?"
I have no illusions that the removal of AFK macroers would significantly increase entertainer populations. The real problem is not AFKing. The real problem with the entertainer professions is one you have illustrated. Combat orientated players don't regard entertainers as worthy of equal regard in the game. Combat players have the unusual notion that this game is all about combat, and that non-combat professions are there purely as support.
Now your lumping all combat oriented players into one group, sure some may feel like that but not all. Of course Entertainers are equal, they are tremendously important, any ATK performer who performs for me will get pleasent conversation and a nice tip. The problem is there are not many out there.
"Since you don't think this fits my ponit, let me make it clearer. Battle Fatigue is FORCED on people, they have no choice. If they wish to keep fighting or crafting, they simply MUST lose their battle fatigue. If they can't find an Entertainer to kill their BF, they CANNOT play."
You are absolutely right. The game forces lots of things on players. It forces them to take damage; it forces them to make money if they want to buy stuff. This is called game mechanics. It is a tool by which players are made to act in a way that works within the game's theme. If you don't like the mechanics, you are probably playing a game that is not suited to your playstyle.
Already covered this, poor options.
"How can finding an Entertainer to kill your BF, not have anythingto do with my point?"
I'm no longer sure what your overall point is.
"Ok now I am totally confused, so your saying that now it is currently HARD to get buffs? Everybody else seems to be screaming that afk buffbots are everywhere. Nobody in my guild has a problem gettin buffs or killing BF, they walk into the cantina and hit the AFK musician or entertainer."
So what are you complaining about? Your entire last post seemed to indicate that you found it hard to get buffs, yet now you're saying it's easy.
I think you need to read back. My arguement all along has been that WITHOUT afk performers, buffs and BF healing will be hard to find. I never said that it was hard to find now. Very easy now actually.
I think that when the Hologrind is over, things will balance out nicely, a large portion of afkers will be gone. This will allow people to tell the "live" entertainers from the afk ones who are still around. Buffs will still be found often enough since the AFK bots will be helping, yet real Entertainers will have more space.
"That last paragraph made it seem like you think that AFK buffbots are good. Buffs are hard to get, buffbots make them easier."
AFK buffbots are bad because they cause ATK entertainers to leave the profession. The ease of use they offer to combat-oriented players is irrelevant.This is not simply a matter of the combat professions getting their wants provided. We're talking aboutthe game's long-term existence. Buffbots are not only a threat to the entertainer professions. They area threat to the game's veryexistence. If you don't see that, you are looking at the problem from a very narrow, short-sightedand self-centred perspective.
I believe few people play Entertainers simply because there is so little content for them, buffbots don't help, but they are not the core of the problem. How are buffbots a threat to the games long term existance? Removing them, and not having the "hole" filled by live Entertainers would upset people far far more.
Make ATK buffs better then AFK buffs, both sides win and the games "very existance" is saved.
"It is clear that you believe that the Entertainer professions should be better and more playable. Good lord, I agree with you. Make them awesome and fun. If that is done right, there will be no need for AFK bots. However, until that is done, removing AFK bots wont fix the problem (which is what this post was about.)"
The original post posed the question of whether we entertainers wanted to kill AFK entertaining. You assume 'the problem' is that buffs are hard to come by. That is only one facet of the problem. While that facet is important to you, there are much larger issues at stake.
Again you missed my point. Buffs areEASY to get now. If AFK macros were killed, buffs and BF healing "may" be hard to get.
Sure larger issues are at stake for 2 elite and one novice profession. This is obviously important. Yet any fix needs to ensure it does not negatively impact the other 29 professions. By all means make Entertainers better, just don't make the game worse for everybody else.
"Oh, and the attitude that we're 'idiots' for charging for our service isn't exactly going to make entertainers want to provide you the service for free - or at all, so I wouldn't go around saying that too much if I were you."
"That isn't what I meant, and you know it wasn't what I meant. So please don't try and twist what I said in the hopes people will think I insulted anybody.
Apart from the fact that you didn't exactly make it clear that you were only talking about those whomassively inflated prices, it is neverthelessexactly what you meant, and it is still an insult even if it's only meant to apply to a small minority of players. The fact that you only intended to insult a few individuals who massively inflate prices doesn't change the fact that your vague assertions about 'idiots overcharging' made it unclear as to what you considered extortion. Thus yourinsult could easily have been interpreted as aimed at very many more entertainers than you intended. Anyway, your (clarified) point is that you think charging 100K for a buff is wrong when buffs are in extremely short supply. I disagree. You assumed I thought you meant that charging 10K or 5K, or a 'reasonable' amountfor a buff was wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. You are indeed insulting people. You are insultingthose who choose to price their services by the laws of supply and demand. We ALL do this to some extent.
My point was clear, you just choose to try and make it look like I was insulting the profession. You seem to think that price gouging is acceptable, I don't. The time and work put into a buff at 2 AM is the same as the time and work put into a buff at 5pm. Charging some noob 100k because you see he has 800 BF is lame. Yes I do see people who take advantage of people as idiots, you call it supply and demand, I call it price gouging.
Again, I am glad that in RL there are laws to prevent your line of thinking.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 11:52 AM
Drygo wrote:
Yep I agree. I thnik it is far better to make Entertainers better then to make everybody else unhappy. Why not make both people happy? Good points.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Drygo wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Shaizan,
Not really, but some people feel so. In AC, the buffbots do sell buffs for money, if buffbots weren't there people would maybe sell buffs though. Buffbots there just make htings more conveiniant.
Ok, I thing we all have pretty much said our parts, and as was already stated, it's going to be hard to change each others minds. So let's take this another way.
Do you mind AFK Entertainers in player City Cantinas? If the Main City Cantinas were yours, would that be ok? I would be totally cool with that.
No.
Trust me, if we had somebody in our city / guild who wanted to be a "live" entertainer, then I would gladly give up the stage. I spend a lot of money on food buffs to keep her going. We had 2 people try being real Entertainers, but they both said it was boring, one quit, the other is a Commando now. So how do you feel about afk performers in places where no live Entertainers have interest in being? Were not very big, so no money would be made. We do our socializing in vocie chat
Hmmm...how about green?
There is still absolutely no way in H E double hockey sticks that I would allow any afk entertainers whatsoever in my Cantina. As I said, this would be a safe haven for all atk entertainers to know that they would not have to deal with afk'ers. There is absolutely nothing you could ever say to convince me otherwise. As to your question, if there are no ATK entertainers then I would fully expect people who need their battle fatigue or mind wounds healed, or need buffs to get on that shuttle and head over to Coronet or Theed, just like I do when I need doctor buffs or doctor healing. Or if I need an item from a crafter, I need to get up off my lazy ass and go find one in Theed or Coronet, or go to their vendor which is most likely in another city, or perhaps even another planet. I don't understand why people think that it's okay to have to do that when you need another profession, but it's not okay to have to do that when you need an entertainer. What is the difference? And, unlike you, I believe that at any given time you would be able to find at least one ATK performer somewhere in the galaxy, such as Theed or Coronet. And, quite frankly, even if they're not in a Cantina (which they would be), maybe our valuable services, if they were only done by ATK people might actually be respected and tipped. This is a good thing.
Blue good?
I guess this is a philosphy thing. In our guild, we have all the crafter types, Armor, weapons, food, Droids, all that is free to guild members. We all work together to get the resources. Sure people still go out and buy that Uber Sliced T21, but they don't need too. We believe in working together.
We have 9 guild Docs, their times are pretty spread out, so it isn't usually to hard for people to get Doc buffs. Buffs last 3.5 hours, so even if the Doc is a secondary character, logging him on ever 3.5 hours isn't a big deal.
We have 3 entertainers, which are all on secondary accounts, nobody is at all interested in playing one all the time. Currently one of us is usually AFK dancing in the cantina. The only other option would be for us to log them on and off every hour to kill BF. That would be pretty inconvieniant for everybody.
So right now, as you can see were pretty self sufficient, or course people travel, but they can easily stay home and hunt as well.
Next, would you be in favor of a system such as this, and not be as upset about afk macros.
A group joins with your Entertainer, the group leader selects "a group mind buff option," at this point, a box appears on your Performers window. That box looks almost exactly like the "destroy," screen you get. It has like 8 numbers, the Entertainer enters those 8 numbers, then for the next 15 minutes the "attended buff is in effect."
During this period, Master mind Buffs last an hour, and you get an extra 10% buff.
If the 8 numbers are not entered in, then the normal buffs you receive now are in effect.
Basically ATK Entertainers would be sought after because their buffs were better.
I would prefer there be no afk whatsoever. However, since that's never gonna happen, I and others suggested something similar in the "in concept" thread that Thunderheart started. Briefly, if you haven't read it, TH suggested a method with a pop up window where as an ATK player would heal faster and get better experience. Well, while I do not like afk at all, buffbots are a bigger problem. And, I suggested that it would be a better solution for these "popups" to appear for buffing instead. Considering afk won't go away since the devs don't want it to, I would be amiable to a solution whereby, whether through pop ups, or any other method, that a live dancer was able to give a better buff, either by lasting longer or by more than doubling the mind pool. At least then live entertainers would be sought out and paid again. It's better than what we have now where I'm lucky if I am able to sell one mind buff every two hours.
I did read that, not a bad start, but honestly quite frankly is is ass backwards. What I mean is this. At the Master level (which most of your buffbots are,) BF is killed really fast, wounds healed as well. So speeding this up really doesn't do much. Many people use this time to make a call of nature, smoke break, or get a drink. The true reward, they gave to the Entertainer, more xp, which is silly. If a customer actually cared what xp the person was getting, they would have selected them anyway. Many people don't care, which is sad.
They need to make it where the customers WANT the ATK Entertainer, because there is some tangible benifit from them.
Well, I would agree with you on this point. I don't think TH's proposal needs to be done. BF and mind wounds, as you say, are already quickly healed. Same reason I thought the entertainer force sensitivity lines were pretty much useless. We don't need that.
This is why I am trying to push for this "reward" to happen during the buffing stage. If TH implemented something similar to what he proposed, but had it for buffing instead of normal healing, then everybody walks away happy. The customer is happy to get a live entertainer for a buff because their buffs are stronger and last longer. The entertainer is happy because they are needed again and are paid. There is a tangible reward for both people in this situation.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 08:16 PM
Straker_Atrella wrote:
I don't think getting Mind buffs or BF healing right now is hard at all. Easy in fact. However, if AFK bots were removed, I think it "could" be hard, negatively impacting the fun of others.
Many people who wanted to entertaining full time were discouraged and left because of this. Many people warned that when the hologrind ended there would be few real entertainers left. And well, here we are. You cannot keep the problem around because solving it would be inconvenient for a time. You have to kill the problem and wait for entertaining to regenerate.
Why will it regenerate? Because entertaining is wicked fun (in my opinion) and because it is lucrative. The developers gave entertainers the ability to buff so that they would have a controllable means of income and also so that they would be a valuable asset to other players. Currently afk buffers are stealing a good portion of this market and basically acting as a slap in the face to entertainers who put all of their game time into entertaining and try to do it well. If afk buffing was disabled, what would happen? Buffs would be scarcer for a while true, but Entertainers in general would become more valuable.
Most Entertainers also have a combat skill (I am Dancer/Swordswoman) and cannot give both types of buffs. Entertainers who put all their time into Entertaining (Master Dancer/Musician) would be that much more valuable. Guilds would try to tempt such a person to join their guild/city. They would be valued and respected assets. More players, seeing this, would become Entertainers, hoping to have a little of this value and respect for themselves. Entertaining WILL regenerate. It will take a while, but that is the proce we pay for supporting afk entertainers in the first place.
Personally I don't have a problem with people having a secondary account to buff themselves or their friends. I think it is a real pity that these people were unable or unwilling to get a real Entertainer to join them or their city. But getting a second account to buff shows me that the profession itself is valuable, it is just the actual Entertainers themselves that these people don't value.
And if a city is not going to value the skills I bring I would rather not join anyway. /shrug. We are both happy.People going afk in a public (NPC) cantina I do care about. Many people argue that they provvide a valuable service. Well. Personally I cannot afford good armor or clothing attachemnts. They are rare and very few people have the time to 24-7 fight in caves. HOWEVER, if there were more people afk loot-camping all the caves this problem would be solved! Attachements would be much cheaper and I could find the ones I need when I need them! Therefore you should really support afk loot-camping and the people who do it. Oh. Just that one problem. Afk loot-campers ruin the game experience for others who want to enjoy the cave. But as long as I get the attachments I want who cares about those whiny combat professions?
People who afk buff or heal in a cantina are basically loot-camping the cantina. They steal xp, money, and enjoyment for the people who are there to actually play. Yes they provide stuff cheaply and easily, but they ruin the experience for other players. People will argue that they don't - but if you read these boards you will find the overwhelming majority of Entertainers say that they DO. And they are the ones that know.
Straker wrote: Isn't that my point? That very few people will happily dance for people 24/7. So if AFK is totally killed, what will people do?
It is true that most Entertainers only have a few hours a day to play. But I don't think that the only way people are able to get healed is because there are people rich enough to have second accounts and an always-available internet connection (and insane enough to play 24-7 lol). The answer is not to have more permanent Entertainers (or else why not just have NPCs do this?) It is to have more Entertainers in general who play at different times. The only way to make this happen is to kill afk.
Anway, I have more arguments, but not more time. Overall, the developers have stated that they did not intend this game (any aspect of it) to be played afk. So afk will be killed. Eventually. Maybe we should all spend time encoragin new players who are trying Entertiner professions and work to make the game more enjoyable for them, so they will be there when we need them.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Now I'm sure some will say, then recruit Entertainers, or people should take them on their mains. Sure that sounds good, but not many people are of that mindset or are willing to do that. Hell we can't evne get anybody to go Squad Leader
squad leader is not entertainer, probably some SL will disagree but ti's generally a waste of point (even if funny to say to group members... form up slimeballs!
), expecially in a game when people solo krayts, elders and all the top end critters, and the groups that run around are mostly solo groups or ganks....
entertainer is all different, is both usefull and fun to play (even if you think that no one will ever makea main entertainer
and as Vorpaks (/agree 100%) and as many other players in these forum i think that slowly "true" entertainers will come back when afk/buffbots will be gone...
Vorpaks wrote:
Straker, were you playing last June through October? It was actually much EASIER to find a entertainer then than it is now. There was almost always a band going in the Dearic cantina for example. After the holos all of that dried up. You could only find reliable entertainment in Theed or Coronet, and most of those people were afk grinding.
Many people who wanted to entertaining full time were discouraged and left because of this. Many people warned that when the hologrind ended there would be few real entertainers left. And well, here we are. You cannot keep the problem around because solving it would be inconvenient for a time. You have to kill the problem and wait for entertaining to regenerate.
Why will it regenerate? Because entertaining is wicked fun (in my opinion) and because it is lucrative. The developers gave entertainers the ability to buff so that they would have a controllable means of income and also so that they would be a valuable asset to other players. Currently afk buffers are stealing a good portion of this market and basically acting as a slap in the face to entertainers who put all of their game time into entertaining and try to do it well. If afk buffing was disabled, what would happen? Buffs would be scarcer for a while true, but Entertainers in general would become more valuable.
Most Entertainers also have a combat skill (I am Dancer/Swordswoman) and cannot give both types of buffs. Entertainers who put all their time into Entertaining (Master Dancer/Musician) would be that much more valuable. Guilds would try to tempt such a person to join their guild/city. They would be valued and respected assets. More players, seeing this, would become Entertainers, hoping to have a little of this value and respect for themselves. Entertaining WILL regenerate. It will take a while, but that is the proce we pay for supporting afk entertainers in the first place.
Personally I don't have a problem with people having a secondary account to buff themselves or their friends. I think it is a real pity that these people were unable or unwilling to get a real Entertainer to join them or their city. But getting a second account to buff shows me that the profession itself is valuable, it is just the actual Entertainers themselves that these people don't value.
People going afk in a public (NPC) cantina I do care about. Many people argue that they provvide a valuable service. Well. Personally I cannot afford good armor or clothing attachemnts. They are rare and very few people have the time to 24-7 fight in caves. HOWEVER, if there were more people afk loot-camping all the caves this problem would be solved! Attachements would be much cheaper and I could find the ones I need when I need them! Therefore you should really support afk loot-camping and the people who do it. Oh. Just that one problem. Afk loot-campers ruin the game experience for others who want to enjoy the cave. But as long as I get the attachments I want who cares about those whiny combat professions?
People who afk buff or heal in a cantina are basically loot-camping the cantina. They steal xp, money, and enjoyment for the people who are there to actually play. Yes they provide stuff cheaply and easily, but they ruin the experience for other players. People will argue that they don't - but if you read these boards you will find the overwhelming majority of Entertainers say that they DO. And they are the ones that know.
Straker wrote: Isn't that my point? That very few people will happily dance for people 24/7. So if AFK is totally killed, what will people do?
It is true that most Entertainers only have a few hours a day to play. But I don't think that the only way people are able to get healed is because there are people rich enough to have second accounts and an always-available internet connection (and insane enough to play 24-7 lol). The answer is not to have more permanent Entertainers (or else why not just have NPCs do this?) It is to have more Entertainers in general who play at different times. The only way to make this happen is to kill afk.
Anway, I have more arguments, but not more time. Overall, the developers have stated that they did not intend this game (any aspect of it) to be played afk. So afk will be killed. Eventually. Maybe we should all spend time encoragin new players who are trying Entertiner professions and work to make the game more enjoyable for them, so they will be there when we need them.