Musician Archive
Thread: Do you guys want to totally kill afk Entertaining?
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Omg it ate my post, cry. Was very long, nice and organized. sigh, maybe again later.
I don't dispute that AFK helped kill Entertainers.
Something needs done to bring back the Entertainers FIRST, then kill the afk bots.
Same thing happened to me, but above is all I could muster on my second shot. 
Man I wish my other post was still there.
Amythen wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
You claim that I'm hurting other players (you,) well guess what my friends are players too. What makes your time more valuable then theirs? They are living breathing people, I know them, I don't know a single Entertainer on our server, I wish I did. Nice dig about making money on our safari's, **edit** does that have to do about anything? My buffbot has nothing to do with money, for them or me, it has to do with time. Why should they spend 30 minutes every hour to go meet some Entertainer that they don't even know will be there?
Then after complaining that Entertainer people are more important then "my people" you talk about hurting the proffession. Guess what, I'm a musician too, I AM that profession as well. I did most of it ATK as well. Also 75% of my game time is with her. Sure I'm making droids, but I also do a lot of Entertaining. ATK type, guess what, I don't make a credit doing it.
I came here in peace, talking logic, tryingto see both sides, wanting things better. Not insulting just talking. Yet everytime I turn around you try and insult me.
Man, I wish my other post still existed. It answered a lot of these.
Okay, I'll let you in on an entertainer's secret. Simply asking, "why is AFK entertainment so bad?" Is about as insulting to many entertainers, including myself, as anything anyone here has said. They amount to fighting words, truth be told.
I have to ask a few questions of you before Iconsider my input to really be worth my while, so if you want to, you can indulge me.
- Do you think inconveniencing other entertainers with AFK entertainment is the right answer to you, and your friends inconvenience?
- No, but there are zero Entertainers around to inconvieniance. I am totally against AFK Entertainment in public places. I wish I didn't need to do it. I know of 30 people who use my bot which is 30 feet from our mission terminal daily. I don't know of a single Professional Entertainer.
- Do you think loot farmers are a unintrusive playstyle?
- Yes, loot farmers are wrong, they are taking possible loot from other players. Now you will say that well my AFK bot is taking possible business from Professional Entertainers. You would be right, if they existed. Perhaps Scylla is worse off then others, but it's really bad. Yet it's funny, we don't have that many buffbots either. Well not public, the ones we do are in private cantinas.
- How many entertainers do you think create kill-bots?
- Not a clue, I'm sure there are some, there are people like that everywhere. I am also against AFK hunting.
- How many AFK entertainers do you think have combat -oriented alts?
- This is tricky. A lot maybe, all 3 part time Entertainers I know have combat alts, however I doubt all of them do, here is why. When people do the Jedi grind, they work a couple of professions at a time. Usually a combat one, along with one they can afk when they are not on. So what I think happens a lot is people may keep Master Musician or Entertainer, as long as they can while they grind something else. Grinders constantly need money, so may see this is a chance for some free cash. Arelady the cantinas are begining to empty.
- Thats part of whyI think this whole arguement is moot. Wait until the grind leaves, let the numbers of Afkers drop. As that happens, more Entertainers will be needed. Then you add the ATK buffs are better then AFK buffs, now charging buffbots are obsolete.
- Would you think is an okay way to play?
- I think you missed a word there, not sure what you meant.
- How much do you really care about how much fun your friends are having?
- A lot. Most of our guild talks in our voice chat, so they are not mere words on the screen, they are true friends. Our guild is based around beging self sufficent, we have our own docs, make our own armor, weapons, clothes, and everything else. You help the guild, the guild helps you. Every single one of them loves having the bot there, not so much for buffs, but for fatigue. The second one of them says "hey I want to be an Entertainer and play in the cantina," the bots are gone. Believe it.
- Would you care if you were afecting one of your friends ability to have fun with their style of gameplay?
- Of course, I would never do this if there was another choice. However, part of being a leader is knowing that sometimes you need to hurt the few to help the many.
Answer those honestly, and then I will answer the question in the subjectof your original post, a rebuttal to your answers, and as much information I can give you to aid in your information seeking. All of which will be as civil as I tried to keep this post. If you cannot answer those questions, I simply will give your information quest as much dignity as AFK enterainment does to live entertainers, none.
Don't take the post you quoted to much to heart, please read all my others so far, I was somewhat upset in that one.
Message Edited by Amythen on 07-19-2004 08:44 PM
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Omg it ate my post, cry. Was very long, nice and organized. sigh, maybe again later.
I don't dispute that AFK helped kill Entertainers.
Something needs done to bring back the Entertainers FIRST, then kill the afk bots.
Well, I think that you'll find once the hologrind is over, you will see more entertainers. In effect, that is a way the devs are "killing" the afk. It's not as broad and sweeping as actually taking away afk, but it will have the same effect to a lesser degree. The fact of the matter is, the entertainers will not come back as long as the afk is like it is right now. And, the fact of the matter is, the master buffers will not come back as long as the bots exist. I know you read my other post where I told what happened when I actually made the initiative to go to Coronet and buff people. Two hours I was able to do so. Then a bot came in, and I had no more business, so I left. Believe me, this is not the first time I tried to do this. And, I know that other entertainers have tried to give Coronet and Theed 2nd, and 3rd and 4th chances. But, if time after time we try to go in, a buffbot comes in and totally decimates our business, why exactly should we continuously make an effort? After someone is beat down time and time again it's only stupidity when we keep going back for more beatings.
No, you get rid of the afk and the bots, and I *assure* you, the entertainers and buffing masters will go back. It's not going to happen the other way around. Why would anyone in their right mind subject themselves to that abuse over and over again?
Yes, AFK entertaining must be completely gone for Entertainers, or at least myself, to be simply content playing the game. It’s the root of too many of our problems.
Here are some things you, and probably the development team, may want to know about our side of the street.
A large population of the live musicians (at least when there once were musicians) is or was very roleplaying oriented. I am unsure as to how long you have played an entertainer, but if you were an entertainer in the first months of the game, this would be an obvious fact. Example of this is the Master Musician list that can be found in this section of the forum that probably is only accurate from back before I quit, seeing as I was never taken off the list. I'll let you make your guesses as to how many are actually left, and which of those are actually playing live still. Both answers are probably quite a bit lower then the numbers hinted at with that thread.
Unfortunately, there isn't just one reason why there are so few musicians with live acts now. The top three; AFK musicians probably being the number one killer of the "roleplaying" live musician, lack of new content probably being the number one killer of the "artsy" live musician, lack of a gratuity for our existence probably being the number one killer of the "socialite" live musician. In conjunction, I would bet heavily that, those three reasons killed 90% of the live entertainment on all servers.
Other servers than Scylla have probably faired better or worse simply due to the starting population make up of the above mentioned styles of live musicians. Of the previous three problems mentioned, the lack of a gratuity was probably the first chronologically. I'm sure most of the non service professions hated the down time of the cantina. Oddly though, they never listened to some of the already available ways to drastically shorten that down time. For example nobody ever came to heavily advertised concerts in theaters, they still don't, and theaters double healing effectiveness! Income from the beginning was really minuscule for me, the funny thing is in this case, is that the more an entertainer gets tipped, the longer they'll stay in a cantina and heal their clients. I also realize that tips were probably low, because the XP level and combat skill level kept combat income low, yet for some reason, in my case, as time went on, my tips shrank instead of growing and matching with other player's incomes. In the beginning the conversation was upbeat and really quite frequent. I swear I knew everybody that came in and out of the Fallen Star, and they all knew me. Good times, even though sometimes people were quite rude, underwear entertainers were the banes of our existence.
The AFK musicians became our second major plague as more and more less then dedicated performers went AFKing for XP while away. None of them were willing to work for their Master status. None of them thought about their customer, how annoying their repetitive music would get. None of them cared about fellow performers who had to put it up with it. I can only say this for musicians at that time though, the sound of repetitive music is far worse then a repetitive dance step. /whisper Aren't most dances repetitive anyway? AFK musicians were an early problem, I would venture to guess that it was the first reported problem that entertainers were having. We fought tooth and nail from the beginning to prevent AFK performers. It should have been stopped a long time ago, along with the AFK surveyors, we wouldn't be where we are today if the development team had gotten to it before this problem bloomed.
New content? Where? We haven't had anything interesting added to our profession yet. When will we get something new? Well, look around this board, and I’m sure you'll get the idea. NewJedi, our correspondent, is regularly ignored by the development team. It’s a miracle whenever any of the four entertainment professions get mentioned in any update.
I am surprised that there are any of my friends left from before I quit. Actually, there is only one person. On Sunrunner even, we started with an exceptional amount of entertainers from the roleplaying server status.
So few of us have put up with the treatment we have gotten from the rest community, development and fellow players alike. Yet for some reason we are supposed to suck it up and keep taking it, just like it is. Why? Because you need us after you decide AFK entertaining is not worthwhile anymore? What will we be rewarded with? More XP? I'm maxed out. More credits? From where? Nobody tips us now, what do you think would change it?
I naively signed up for three months of my new subscription, and nothing has changed. Now I find out nothing will change.
Do you understand yet, how insulting it is for AFKers to be able to take just about everything away from us?
I can give quite a good list of all the problems AFKers have brought us. AFKers take everything we have as a profession, it can be done totally AFK. No other profession has it so. We can't make credits, when there is a free AFK bot in every city that needs one. We don't get recognition as long as there are AFK bots. We have no one to perform for in many places, my customers are as few and far between as you say entertainers are. Kind of funny isn't it? Not for me. Yet, you continue on, you don't see the full picture, all you care about is you and yours. Makes it pretty easy to keep AFKing doesn’t it?
You say, "I only do it away from other cities in our player cantina." Do you know how many people say that? I haven't seen more then two dozen customers in public cantinas since I restarted. So, an important thing to remember is you can't fight when battle fatigue is high, you can get by without anything else. Well, when you AFK perform, you take away our best chance to fill that one niche we have been given.
So now, perhaps everyone can understand something of the entertainers’ predicament. I understand you were just looking for information in your original post. You haven't taken any of it to heart from the previous posters obviously. So I guess it won't ever matter to you, like you said, you have your own musician, you can just go AFKing no matter what we say, no matter what our problems. So everything should just keep on going on as it is. Meanwhile, I will probably cancel my subscription, yet again, going without the kind of gaming experience that I was hoping for, and was forced to give away by other players.
Sorry for getting somewhat emotional, but it’s a big part of the problem for us, because we loved what we once had. We saw its potential, but AFKers simply perverted it for there many reasons. Its also why you have been getting a lot flack, because you can't seem to see it for what it is. Or, if you do, you don't care, seeing as you are more than willing to just keep on going for your own benefit.
Many fixes have been suggested. A lot of them fair, some less than. Many possible, some less than. Nothing has come of it, except entertainer missions. Have you tried one of them? If you have, you'll understand the insult that they are. The newest attempt, the commanding player, pfft... hardly worthy of our time and money spent thus far.
Drygo, I agree with everything that you said, it's totally bull that you were pushed out of there. That's why I totally support the system we have talked about that would make YOU not the buffbot making the money. Make your ATK buffs better, people will prefer you.
Amythen, I agree with everything you said, except for the parts that I will quoe and discuss below.
Wow, this one turned out better then the last. Time to copy it jsut in case. Sorry for being so long winded.
Amythen wrote:
Yes, AFK entertaining must be completely gone for Entertainers, or at least myself, to be simply content playing the game. It’s the root of too many of our problems.
That's part of the problem I think. "Some" people hate AFKers with such passion thatthey may "settle" for a system that makes them obsolete and pushes them out the door. However,some Entertainerswont ever be truly happy as long as people can still AFK, whether it actually affects them or not.
I can give quite a good list of all the problems AFKers have brought us. AFKers take everything we have as a profession, it can be done totally AFK. No other profession has it so. We can't make credits, when there is a free AFK bot in every city that needs one. We don't get recognition as long as there are AFK bots. We have no one to perform for in many places, my customers are as few and far between as you say entertainers are. Kind of funny isn't it? Not for me. Yet, you continue on, you don't see the full picture, all you care about is you and yours. Makes it pretty easy to keep AFKing doesn’t it?
You seem to believe that the Entertainers are like the forgotten children of SWG, while I agree that we definitly need content, please don't act like we are the only ones with problems. Have you ever played a Squad Leader? How about Carbineer? Many professions, such as Pistoleer to this day still have large amounts of specials that don't work. Merchant is probably the most exploited of all, you can grind Merchant up (ground 100% afk by the way,) then totally drop Merchant, keeping all your vendors, and many other cool things as well.
So many professions have problems and issues.
AFK is largely caused by the Grind, let's take a look at what other problems have been caused by the grind. Many crafting professionsare ground up in a day or 2, sometimes less. People do these AFK, they just do it illegally, the inability to catch them is part of the reason the grind is going. The AFK isn't my point though, my point is what happens AFTER people master those professions. They make thousands of things that quality doesn't matter on, thenmake factory runs. Batteries, Clothes, Seeker Droids, Swoops, smuggler tools, Storage droids, Mounts, customization kits, spices, and many more.
They then sell these items on the Bazaar, their exploited merchant Vendors, or by spamming. They sell them at 25% of the normal market price. They are happy to get 2-4 cpu for things, after all, it didn't cost them any work. They don't have the overhead a normal crafter does. They care nothing for the profession or those trying to make a living off of it. Heck, they probably already dropped the profession.
When you buy your items, do you ensure that they are coming from somebody who is keeping the profession? I try too. If you don't you are just as guilty as you say all the people using or running AFK bots are, (putting on flame retardent suit, this is goingto hurt.)
So while this problem may not EXACTLY be like Entertainers, a lot of peoples markets are affected by Holo Grinders with no ethics. All of this is part of why the Holo Grind is going away.
You say, "I only do it away from other cities in our player cantina." Do you know how many people say that? I haven't seen more then two dozen customers in public cantinas since I restarted. So, an important thing to remember is you can't fight when battle fatigue is high, you can get by without anything else. Well, when you AFK perform, you take away our best chance to fill that one niche we have been given.
Agreed, but with player cities so spread out, don't you think it my be extreme to expect people to spend 30 minutes every hour to go kill BF? No matter what happens, the public cantinas will never return to the glory days of before the player cities.
So now, perhaps everyone can understand something of the entertainers’ predicament. I understand you were just looking for information in your original post. You haven't taken any of it to heart from the previous posters obviously. So I guess it won't ever matter to you, like you said, you have your own musician, you can just go AFKing no matter what we say, no matter what our problems. So everything should just keep on going on as it is. Meanwhile, I will probably cancel my subscription, yet again, going without the kind of gaming experience that I was hoping for, and was forced to give away by other players.
Actually, if you read all my posts, and the ones on other thread, I'm actually open minded. Please judge my mindset by what I have said, not what others have "said" I said. I have changed my point of view on a couple of things.
I simply stand firm on 2 things.
1. Make buffbots obsolete by making at the keyboard buffs better. This is the way to go.
2. I'll keep my AFK bot up until I know that there is a living breathing person somewhere close who can take care of our guilds needs. Many professions have problems, right now it's just hard for me to justify inconvieniancing 30 people for somebody who probably wont even be there.
Sorry for getting somewhat emotional, but it’s a big part of the problem for us, because we loved what we once had. We saw its potential, but AFKers simply perverted it for there many reasons. Its also why you have been getting a lot flack, because you can't seem to see it for what it is. Or, if you do, you don't care, seeing as you are more than willing to just keep on going for your own benefit.
I understand loving the glory days,but much of the game has changed since then, it may or may not be possible to ever get that back. Making the game more unpleasent for others in your quest for those glory days is not the answer. In fact, people my resent Entertainers even more.
Can you imagine if as many Enterainers have suggested, loop macros were nerfed? This would affect many many people, hell even Droid users. You would have very many peopleangry at Entertainers, while they may be forced to use you, they would not like you.
Any solution to fix ANY profession must be something that the other players can accept. For example, on the DE boards we constantly talk about making droids wear out in some way, since we have no resale market. While I am in favor of this, I am a firm advocate of making sure any such system gives the CUSTOMER a benefit.
Never Nerf when you can love.
Many fixes have been suggested. A lot of them fair, some less than. Many possible, some less than. Nothing has come of it, except entertainer missions. Have you tried one of them? If you have, you'll understand the insult that they are. The newest attempt, the commanding player, pfft... hardly worthy of our time and money spent thus far.
No to be honest, I havn't tried them. Trying to make a buck with my DE part keeps me really busy, it's a huge time sink, with little profit, but I enjoy it. Doing more Entertainer stuff is on my list, alon with many combatent stuff, it's a long list.
Amythen wrote:
So now, after a little less than a year of continuously warning the community of the ill effects of AFK performers. You believe that continuing the AFK performers' viability is the best solution we have? Sounds to me like stopping a flood by adding more water.
Electro wrote:
You want to know a full timer entertainer on Scylla? Me. You want to know why I gave up both all my musician skills and master dancer? Becuase even if I was in the cantina 8 hours a day (which I was) and even if I buffed (which I did) no one wanted the buffs! Why? Buff bots.
Actually I think I remember you, sad that you stopped. I'm not debating that AFK didn't drive musicians away, such as yourself, I agree with that. My point is that right now they are slim pickings on Scylla. You don't shut off the lights, then light the candle, you light the candle first, otherwise you fumble around in the dark. Make Entertainer awesome, make it so these new things can't be AFK'd. Then the whole afk problem will go away.
For a brief time I actually COULD win against buff bots. This was during the "exploit"era of 30 second buffs. Players actually sought me, a real live player, out to buff them for two reasons. One, I could buff both music and dance in about 1:30 and two, I like to think, they enjoyed chatting to me from time to time. When the fast buffs for ATK people went away, I lost 99% of my business. Over night. Gone. FOREVER. Now, suddently, travelling to where I was ALWAYS PLAYING was more onerous to them than sitting for far longer with the legions of buffbots nearer to them. I could still buff substantially faster (7 mins compared to 16 for most buffbots) but that was no longer enough of an advantage.
Unless live players provide a service that is substantially (and I don't mean 10% or something equally useless) superior to AFK bots no one will seek us out and our numbers will continue to dwindle.
Like I have said before, the main (IMO) for that isn't the buff bots, it's the difference between DOC buffs and Entertainer buff times. If you get buffed by a Doc for 3 hours, then the musician does you for 2, on the 3rd hour of your hunting, you now have a problem. You'r going to need to go back to Coronet in an hour for Doc buffs anyway, but what about my mind buff? Well there is usually a bot at the trade outpost. Sigh
If Entertainer buffs matched up with Doc buffs, or were closer, you would at least have all of the people who pay for buffs in the main cities coming to you. Make ATK buffs 15% better and last 3 hours, and this will happen.
Would that be enough though? Even if you were making money hand over fist, with a steady line of customers, would you be happy knowing that in the deep dark remote cantinas of the world, some people still used buff bots?
Oh, and you want to know why I declined 10+ guild invitations (including yours) to be their cantina dancer/musician? Because sitting alone in a cantina for 45 mins out of an hour on the off chance a guild person will come inandexpecttobebuffedfor free because I am in the guildthe other 15 minutes isn't really very social and it also doesn't make me feel particularly valued. I am an entertainer to be social and I would like to be valued.
You probably are mistaken about our guild, unless you know somebody in real life, or are a very good friend for a long time of someone inour guild, you can't get in. We don't normally recruit people. Plus what you said about sitting in an empty cantina is 100% right. The money thing as well. People in our guild don't pay for Armor, Droids or Weapons, why should they pay a guildy for buffs? Plus few people would have the patience to sit in an empty cantina.
The problem is much more complex then just AFK being evil.
because no one really wanted to socialize with them ..i think thats been proven beyond any doubt.
Anistasio wrote:
You're right, there aren't many socializers anymore, they were here at one time, many quit. Now ask yourself why.
because no one really wanted to socialize with them ..i think thats been proven beyond any doubt.
Pretty dumb post. Sorry I try to be upbeat and positive mostly, but c'mon.
Moving on...maybe this is becoming my attitude of late, or in general, but all in all, if people who use buffbots are inconvenianced for awhile while the entertainer professions build back up to meet status quo, oh well. Seriously, Musicians & Dancers been "inconvenienced" far too long, so if you all are worried there aren't enough live ones around post the end of recursive macro's, and will be inconvenienced in turn? Suck it up.
Perhaps the live ones still on your respective servers will crawl out of the pa cantinas and come back to static city's to buff people and finally get paid. Who is to say entertainers won't work the same as buffbots did, inviting people to group upon reciept of donation, but the difference they'll be there the whole time, chatting it up with those folks, and raising the bar on entertainment in the process. I know that I for one will be on during non-peak times on Wanderhome server doing buffs...send me a tell and you'll find me. And hey, if your a wookiee or a rebel? It's always free...
Sorry to be so negative =(
Anistasio wrote:
You're right, there aren't many socializers anymore, they were here at one time, many quit. Now ask yourself why.
because no one really wanted to socialize with them ..i think thats been proven beyond any doubt.
There are lots of Socializers around still, they simply socialize as Docs, Crafters, Commandos or other professions. Just because your a Combat profession doesn't mean you can't talk and interact with people. Yes many Entertainer Socializers quit or moved onto other professions, this was just as much of a result as there being little content to the profession as well as the AFK problem.
Message Edited by nvoigt on 08-14-2004 01:55 PM
Message Edited by nvoigt on 08-14-2004 01:58 PM