Musician Archive
Thread: Do you guys want to totally kill afk Entertaining?
Message Edited by Beery on 07-17-2004 08:01 PM
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Straker_Atrella wrote:
Shaizan,
Not really, but some people feel so. In AC, the buffbots do sell buffs for money, if buffbots weren't there people would maybe sell buffs though. Buffbots there just make htings more conveiniant.
Ok, I thing we all have pretty much said our parts, and as was already stated, it's going to be hard to change each others minds. So let's take this another way.
Do you mind AFK Entertainers in player City Cantinas? If the Main City Cantinas were yours, would that be ok? I would be totally cool with that.
No.Heh...If I own a player Cantina, I would consider it imperative that I provide a safe haven for live entertainers so that they would never have to deal with the BS that you find in the NPC cities.
Next, would you be in favor of a system such as this, and not be as upset about afk macros.
A group joins with your Entertainer, the group leader selects "a group mind buff option," at this point, a box appears on your Performers window. That box looks almost exactly like the "destroy," screen you get. It has like 8 numbers, the Entertainer enters those 8 numbers, then for the next 15 minutes the "attended buff is in effect."
During this period, Master mind Buffs last an hour, and you get an extra 10% buff.
If the 8 numbers are not entered in, then the normal buffs you receive now are in effect.
Basically ATK Entertainers would be sought after because their buffs were better.
I would prefer there be no afk whatsoever. However, since that's never gonna happen, I and others suggested something similar in the "in concept" thread that Thunderheart started. Briefly, if you haven't read it, TH suggested a method with a pop up window where as an ATK player would heal faster and get better experience. Well, while I do not like afk at all, buffbots are a bigger problem. And, I suggested that it would be a better solution for these "popups" to appear for buffing instead. Considering afk won't go away since the devs don't want it to, I would be amiable to a solution whereby, whether through pop ups, or any other method, that a live dancer was able to give a better buff, either by lasting longer or by more than doubling the mind pool. At least then live entertainers would be sought out and paid again. It's better than what we have now where I'm lucky if I am able to sell one mind buff every two hours.
Respectfully
Drygo wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Shaizan,
Not really, but some people feel so. In AC, the buffbots do sell buffs for money, if buffbots weren't there people would maybe sell buffs though. Buffbots there just make htings more conveiniant.
Ok, I thing we all have pretty much said our parts, and as was already stated, it's going to be hard to change each others minds. So let's take this another way.
Do you mind AFK Entertainers in player City Cantinas? If the Main City Cantinas were yours, would that be ok? I would be totally cool with that.
No.
Trust me, if we had somebody in our city / guild who wanted to be a "live" entertainer, then I would gladly give up the stage. I spend a lot of money on food buffs to keep her going. We had 2 people try being real Entertainers, but they both said it was boring, one quit, the other is a Commando now. So how do you feel about afk performers in places where no live Entertainers have interest in being? Were not very big, so no money would be made. We do our socializing in vocie chat
Next, would you be in favor of a system such as this, and not be as upset about afk macros.
A group joins with your Entertainer, the group leader selects "a group mind buff option," at this point, a box appears on your Performers window. That box looks almost exactly like the "destroy," screen you get. It has like 8 numbers, the Entertainer enters those 8 numbers, then for the next 15 minutes the "attended buff is in effect."
During this period, Master mind Buffs last an hour, and you get an extra 10% buff.
If the 8 numbers are not entered in, then the normal buffs you receive now are in effect.
Basically ATK Entertainers would be sought after because their buffs were better.
I would prefer there be no afk whatsoever. However, since that's never gonna happen, I and others suggested something similar in the "in concept" thread that Thunderheart started. Briefly, if you haven't read it, TH suggested a method with a pop up window where as an ATK player would heal faster and get better experience. Well, while I do not like afk at all, buffbots are a bigger problem. And, I suggested that it would be a better solution for these "popups" to appear for buffing instead. Considering afk won't go away since the devs don't want it to, I would be amiable to a solution whereby, whether through pop ups, or any other method, that a live dancer was able to give a better buff, either by lasting longer or by more than doubling the mind pool. At least then live entertainers would be sought out and paid again. It's better than what we have now where I'm lucky if I am able to sell one mind buff every two hours.
I did read that, not a bad start, but honestly quite frankly is is ass backwards. What I mean is this. At the Master level (which most of your buffbots are,) BF is killed really fast, wounds healed as well. So speeding this up really doesn't do much. Many people use this time to make a call of nature, smoke break, or get a drink. The true reward, they gave to the Entertainer, more xp, which is silly. If a customer actually cared what xp the person was getting, they would have selected them anyway. Many people don't care, which is sad.
They need to make it where the customers WANT the ATK Entertainer, because there is some tangible benifit from them.
Warryyrr, I agree with most of what you said, except 2 things.
Docs can and do setup buff macros. To get paid for them, they simply sit in a building with an access fee. Not saying this is right, just saying it happens.
The Devs keep making statements like "we don't like AFK either." I guess that scares me. They may actually do something to macros, that will affect many aspects of the game. Sometimes things are done without really looking at all the ramifications.
Kanubis wrote:
Straker.. I think you underestimate the number of true etnertainers out there. I'm curious as to when you started playing - pre-hologrind, before the AFK nightmare, it was never a challenge to find an entertainer. It's true that you don't see so many in the cantinas now (ATK ones I mean) - but that number would increase significantly if the AFKers weren't there.
Oh, and as others have said, thanks for coming and putting a well-presented argument.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 09:06 AM
Beery wrote:
"Sure player cities existed, but did they have cantinas, misisons terminals and everything they do now? Later yes, but not at first."
Player cities did not exist until about 6 months after launch.
"My point is this, back then, with people more congregating together, perhaps 20 role playing entertainers could easily service the server with no inconvieniance to anybody."
There were many more than 20 ATK entertainers to a server back in the good old days. I would estimate the average to have been wellover 100 ATK entertainers playing during a weekday evening. Even now I'd say that the population of ATK entertainers at peak server times is well over 20 per server. It's probably more like 50.
I never said that there were ONLY 20 Entertainers in the begining, in fact there were probably almsot as many as other professions. I said that 20 COULD service the Server because people were more clustered.
How many of those 50 ATK entertainers are grinders? Sure they may be there talking and socializing now, their hobby is SWG, they will play it whether they are doing a profession they could AFK or not. Like I said, when I got Master Musician, I was ATK a large portion of the time. That hardly means that if AFK macros were removed I would enjoy standing in the cantina buffing people all day.
Yet lets pretend AFK macros are gone. Then let's use your number of 50 living breathing Entertainers online. Let's look at that.
10 may be out hunting with friends.
10 may be crafting or surveying or otherwise busy.
10 only logged on to buff friends, then will be logging off, sorry busy.
5 people only buff the same faction, this happens with docs, why not Enterainers?
5 idiots will buff you or perform for you, but they know your desperate and want to charge a crazy fee.
10 Actual Entertainers are online and performing publically. Whooohooooo! Now you need to find them, then you need to travel to them, then you need to wait in line. Also you better hope your not Overt, talk about griefing.
That is my concept of how your 50 people "may" break down, but wait a second. You said 50 of them at Server Peak times. What happens to my numbers when it's no peak times? They drop by 25%, 50%, 75%?
10 may be out hunting with friends.
10 may be crafting or surveying or otherwise busy.
10 only logged on to buff friends, then will be logging off, sorry busy."
Your first 2 examples are not entertainers. They are not performing their function as entertainers, so they don't count towards my figure of 50 entertainers. I was talking about entertainers online as entertainers. The third example doesn't count either. They are not really there. I was talking about people who are there, available in every way, as entertainers.
"5 people only buff the same faction, this happens with docs, why not Enterainers?"
Entertainers rarely buff only the same faction. We need the money too much to get involved in that silly Galactic Civil War.
"5 idiots will buff you or perform for you, but they know your desperate and want to charge a crazy fee."
Glad to know that you consider me - a person who isoften online and willing to give you the service you desire -an idiot. It's surprising though, because you hardly know me! Tell me, do you consider everyone who charges based on supply and demand an 'idiot'? In your view is capitalism an affliction? You might regard the fees we demand 'crazy', but tell me this: if you found an originalvan Gogh painting in your attic, left there by a previous owner, would you sell it for a few dollars to cover the wear and tear on your bones you incurred climbing the stairs? Or would you auction it at Sotherby's for millions? The demand is what determines a fair price in this case. The cost to the providerof the service (or the cost of findingthe painting)is irrelevant. When you buy armour, do you consider the price you pay for that to be crazy? When you get a doctor buff, do you think that price is crazy? Do you consider crafters and doctors to be idiots fordemanding a profitbased on supply and demand, rather than on item cost. What you seem to misunderstand is that everyone in this game makes HUGE profits based on demand and the customer's ability to payrather than on cost. If you think entertainers are idiots for doing this, then you must think similarly of every person who makes money from selling things.
"10 Actual Entertainers are online and performing publically. Whooohooooo! Now you need to find them, then you need to travel to them, then you need to wait in line. Also you better hope your not Overt, talk about griefing."
This has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether you're going to find someone to buff has absolutely nothing to do with any of your points. You're missing the main reasons why entertainers don't buff.
"That is my concept of how your 50 people "may" break down, but wait a second. You said 50 of them at Server Peak times. What happens to my numbers when it's no peak times? They drop by 25%, 50%, 75%?"
Sure. But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with numbers of people able to buff. There could be 500 ATKentertainers on one server, and you'd still find it difficult to find a person ableto buff you. The simple fact is that the ability to buff is so rare that people who can do it are virtually nonexistent. If you want buffs to be widelyavailable, petition the developers to changewhere buffing ability resides on the skill tree. Currently it resides on the last skill branch that performers get, and a good buff can only be given by Masters (who, because of a lack of content,rarely perform). Until that changes, you're going to be out of luck, no matter whether there are 10, 50, or 500 entertainers available on a server.
Oh, and the attitude that we're 'idiots' for charging for our service isn't exactly going to make entertainers want to provide you the service for free - or at all, so I wouldn't go around saying that too much if I were you.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 09:39 AM
Perhaps one of you could explain his viewpoint to me, I was following and understanding all other arguements to far, and actually having a good time.
Beery wrote:
"I never said that there were ONLY 20 Entertainers in the begining,"
Nor did I ever say that you said there were only 20 entertainers in the beginning. I merely said there were more than 20.
"Yet lets pretend AFK macros are gone. Then let's use your number of 50 living breathing Entertainers online. Let's look at that.
10 may be out hunting with friends.
10 may be crafting or surveying or otherwise busy.
10 only logged on to buff friends, then will be logging off, sorry busy."
Your first 2 examples are not entertainers. They are not performing their function as entertainers, so they don't count towards my figure of 50 entertainers. I was talking about entertainers online as entertainers. The third example doesn't count either. They are not really there. I was talking about people who are there, available in every way, as entertainers.
Wait so you are saying that during Prime Time, there are 50 people standing in cantinas waiting to buff people? Not Holo grinders, but people who are doing nothing but buffing? I'll agree that during prime time, there may be 50 people Entertaining at their keyboard, but most wont have the profession next week, or will fall into your "not entertainer catagory" after a little bit.
Do you honestly think that after the grind is gone there will be 50 people doing nothing but selling Entertainer buffs? I find that number very very high. At least on my server, maybe not yours.
"5 people only buff the same faction, this happens with docs, why not Enterainers?"
Entertainers rarely buff only the same faction. We need the money too much to get involved in that silly Galactic Civil War.
Maybe you find it silly, but others do not. I find it ironic that it is acceptable for people to want to role play entertainers, but it is silly for people to want to role play a person that wont help the enemy. They are out there.
"5 idiots will buff you or perform for you, but they know your desperate and want to charge a crazy fee."
Glad to know that you consider me - a person who isoften online and willing to give you the service you desire -an idiot. It's surprising though, because you hardly know me! Tell me, do you consider everyone who charges based on supply and demand an 'idiot'? In your view is capitalism an affliction? You might regard the fees we demand 'crazy', but tell me this: if you found an originalvan Gogh painting in your attic, left there by a previous owner, would you sell it for a few dollars to cover the wear and tear on your bones you incurred climbing the stairs? Or would you auction it at Sotherby's for millions? The demand is what determines a fair price in this case. The cost to the providerof the service (or the cost of findingthe painting)is irrelevant. When you buy armour, do you consider the price you pay for that to be crazy? When you get a doctor buff, do you think that price is crazy? Do you consider crafters and doctors to be idiots fordemanding a profitbased on supply and demand, rather than on item cost. What you seem to misunderstand is that everyone in this game makes HUGE profits based on demand and the customer's ability to payrather than on cost. If you think entertainers are idiots for doing this, then you must think similarly of every person who makes money from selling things.
What you said right now had absolutly nothing to do with my comment.
Have you ever been on 2 hours before shutdown, then went looking for a Doc buff, only to find one "idiot," saying he will buff you for 100k? I have. I have also seen people charge crazy high fees to cure a simple disease. Yet, a buff is a right, you can get by without it.
However, lets go back to my origional point. AFK bots are gone, it's 2 am PST. After looking for 30 minutes, he finally finds somebody. That person type /diagnose and see that the guy has 500 mind wounds and 800 battle fatigue. He then chuckles to himself. "Sure I'll dance for you, 200k." He knows nobody else is around. He knows the guy can't do anything currently, so is caught between a rock and a hard place. The guy can choose to pay 200k, or just log 2 hours early.
The "idiot" entertainer has nothing to lose, he may actually make 200k. You may not do this, I never said you would, but there are htose out there who will. Doctors already do it.
You believe in supply and demand I guess. Yet there is also such a thing as price gouging.
"10 Actual Entertainers are online and performing publically. Whooohooooo! Now you need to find them, then you need to travel to them, then you need to wait in line. Also you better hope your not Overt, talk about griefing."
This has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether you're going to find someone to buff has absolutely nothing to do with any of your points. You're missing the main reasons why entertainers don't buff.
I'm missing the main reason that Entertainers don't buff? Please explain it to me. Everybody else seems to argue that Entertainers WANT to buff, yet are competing with AFK macros. So you believe that if AFK macros were removed, people around the galaxie would drop other professions and become Entertainers?
Since you don't think this fits my ponit, let me make it clearer. Battle Fatigue is FORCED on people, they have no choice. If they wish to keep fighting or crafting, they simply MUST lose their battle fatigue. If they can't find an Entertainer to kill their BF, they CANNOT play.
How can finding an Entertainer to kill your BF, not have anythingto do with my point?
"That is my concept of how your 50 people "may" break down, but wait a second. You said 50 of them at Server Peak times. What happens to my numbers when it's no peak times? They drop by 25%, 50%, 75%?"
Sure. But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with numbers of people able to buff. There could be 500 ATKentertainers on one server, and you'd still find it difficult to find a person ableto buff you. The simple fact is that the ability to buff is so rare that people who can do it are virtually nonexistent. If you want buffs to be widelyavailable, petition the developers to changewhere buffing ability resides on the skill tree. Currently it resides on the last skill branch that performers get, and a good buff can only be given by Masters (who, because of a lack of content,rarely perform). Until that changes, you're going to be out of luck, no matter whether there are 10, 50, or 500 entertainers available on a server.
Ok now I am totally confused, so your saying that now it is currently HARD to get buffs? Everybody else seems to be screaming that afk buffbots are everywhere. Nobody in my guild has a problem gettin buffs or killing BF, they walk into the cantina and hit the AFK musician or entertainer.
That last paragraph made it seem like you think that AFK buffbots are good. Buffs are hard to get, buffbots make them easier.
It is clear that you believe that the Entertainer professions should be better and more playable. Good lord, I agree with you. Make them awesome and fun. If that is done right, there will be no need for AFK bots. However, until that is done, removing AFK bots wont fix the problem (which is what this post was about.)
Now you have me very confused as to how you feel about AFK bots.
Oh, and the attitude that we're 'idiots' for charging for our service isn't exactly going to make entertainers want to provide you the service for free - or at all, so I wouldn't go around saying that too much if I were you.
That isn't what I meant, and you know it wasn't what I meant. So please don't try and twist what I said in the hopes people will think I insulted anybody. I'm trying to have a good logical discussion and would appreciate it if you did the same.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-18-2004 09:39 AM