Musician Archive
Thread: Do you think it's fair to waste 400k xp out of 900k xp, when you could be spending it on FS xp?
Banthabutcher
Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:41 am
#40
After sleeping on it I've come to a new conclusion, one that ties back to my XP as currency idea.
For other schematics, money gets spent in some way:
Crafters have to buy the schems from adventurers.
Adventurers have to spend money on buffs, armor, weapons, and cloning/insuring (often multiple sets for things like the Corvette, where you tend to die and decay a lot).
But Musicians and Dancers spend no money on this quest, except for maybe the 5k to buy resources for instruments.
There has to be a cost somewhere. Adventurers gets lots of money from missions. Crafters get lots of money from the Adventurers. What do Entertainers get a lot of...
*Ding!* XP!
We sit in the cantina for hours just socialized, while gaining XP as a by-product. Of course, the problem is that the devs assume it will always be a by-product when it always becomes the primary goal.
I still think 400k XP is a little steep.
If you double flourish every tick on the Nalargon or Virtuoso, it takes about 21 hours of constant play to get 400k XP.
It takes a Master Pikeman3 hours to get at least 500k credits from Janta missions, which is plenty for armor and buffs.
Just my 2-cents.
omadnay
Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:06 am
#41
NewJedi wrote:
Some Musicians have no objection to this requirement, and a couple have even suggested to me that it's currently too easy to get the song. If there is a strong consensus one way or the other, I'll pass it on to the devs.
Me, I think the requirementmay be a bit steep, but I also think the devs are trying to provide us with the post-Master goals we keep saying we want. For entertainers, it makes sense that post-Master content include XP requirements.Not XPexclusively, but it makes sense to me that XP should be one of a number of post-Master hurdles. I really have no trouble with that concept in principle. Cash could be another hurdle, but that would generate objections too. The devs really can't win. If they don't impose goals, people say they're getting no new content; if they do impose goals, then people say they're making Musicians' lives more dififcult.
My main concern here is that 400K implies that one has to be above Novice Musician. Even on that point, though, I'm not sure I find this objectionable. I've always felt that there should've been a song in the empty box above Novice Musician, and this sort of fits the bill now. Sure, this means you have to blow the horn a bit longer to fill up those Jedi boxes, but what alternate cost would you impose on Musicians for the new song? Cash? No cost at all? The devs aren't likely to buy "no cost at all."
I have to admit, I'm a bit disappointed in this response NewJedi.
I've seen this kind of debate before...
Somepeople care about achieving a certain goal (or two) and feel as though they are going to be wronged by the dev's choices so far on Test.
The other side does not share the same desire to achieve the said goal(s) and feel as though the devs' decisions aren't going to be a negative... so they're okay with it.
I call BS on that mindset.
I don't want to use my musician xp for the village, but I damn-well believe that the entertainers that do want to, should in no way have to split ANY xp between that goal and this new content!
It is really that cut and dry...
it doesn't matter if you and I are fine with spending the xp... what matters is that other people have every right to feel slighted by this, because it is wrong.
These players are right... it is wrong to do this to them right now.
I really hope you read all the posts by players that want this payment removed and act upon it as their correspondent.
I think it is ridiculous to accept that "The devs aren't likely to buy "no cost at all".
The devs need to save our profession... that's not happening any time soon.
This move that they are making here, is only going to blast the entertainer community to further shreds.
Just let them complete the quest and gain the reward!
I've been here since launch... I don't know if I can hold on to this profession anymore.
It is just too much of a joke.
The entertainers are not included in anything... and now this.
The things thatentertainers do normally, should be good enough to earn their quest rewards... PERIOD!!
If doing what an entertainer is supposed to do is not enough to earn a quest reward... then the DEVS REALLY SCREWED UP ON THE ENTIREPROFESSION'S DESIGN!!!
If that is true... then they should put every entertainer through the ringer for anything that they ever want to achieve... because after all... the profession they chose is aBABY profession and the way they work in this game is so lame we cannot reward them for playing the game that way!
Is that what they are saying?
Is that what you are agreeing with?
If doing what an Entertainer is supposed to do is not enough to earn a quest reward... then just delete them all from the game. Lockall theiraccounts. Keep chargingthem money and bringthem allto court for flat-out cheating in a mmorpg.
While I knew that the entertainers were messed up in the current state of the game... I didn't realise that they are considered truly broken and that they are that pathetic that they don't deserve any reward based on their own game mechanics.
- Omadda Szool
Kauri
I apologise for the large font and all... but it just felt right.
Tralmek
Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:31 pm
#42
I posted a rather lengthy response on the testing thread about how the xp loss could be changed or removed and still require us to give up something costly to learn the new song. It boiled down to these suggestions:
*Lower the cost to learn the scroll to 125k (the Novice xp cap)
*OR keep the cost at 400k and add the ability to pay xp in cumulatively
**This gives the Entertainer the choice of how much xp he wants to devote to pursuing the new "content" for Entertainers or to pursuing the new content for Jedi to-be.
*OR remove the xpcost and add a cumulative time commitment for hours of Entertaining before learning the new "content"
*AND remove the ability for AFK macroing the path to getting the new "content."
**Yes, I said AND. This is a must-have regardless of what other ways the issues with the xp costs are solved.
**Regardless of the cost whether it is time or xp, an AFK macrotainer cheapens it, because the AFK'er has to make no time commitments. Any sense of achievement an ATK Entertainer might have at earning the new song or dance would be washed away if an AFK macroer could do the same thing. It's the same principle of how giving a "credit to the profession" badge to a buffbot cheapened the badge for everyone else who actually plays the Profession.
**On the issue of AFK macroing there is NO compromise possible. To allow AFK macrotaining is to destroy the Entertainment Professions.
**What better place to start the elimination of long-term AFK "play" than with the Entertainers' quest?
*OR remove the xpcost and add a cumulative time commitment for hours of Entertaining before learning the new "content"
*AND remove the ability for AFK macroing the path to getting the new "content."
**Yes, I said AND. This is a must-have regardless of what other ways the issues with the xp costs are solved.
**Regardless of the cost whether it is time or xp, an AFK macrotainer cheapens it, because the AFK'er has to make no time commitments. Any sense of achievement an ATK Entertainer might have at earning the new song or dance would be washed away if an AFK macroer could do the same thing. It's the same principle of how giving a "credit to the profession" badge to a buffbot cheapened the badge for everyone else who actually plays the Profession.
**On the issue of AFK macroing there is NO compromise possible. To allow AFK macrotaining is to destroy the Entertainment Professions.
**What better place to start the elimination of long-term AFK "play" than with the Entertainers' quest?
If you have some input on these ideas, it might be better to post it in response to the testing thread, so Chrysalide can read it. I get the feeling that some of these poor Devs, especially the ones who show even slight interest in the Social playstyle are locked in a closet without break room donuts for a week or two as punishment. But maybe Chrys can sneak a peek at that thread during his punishment period. Access to the Entertainment boards is probably forbidden by the Devs' computers' firewalls, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about finding a Dev response here....
Message Edited by Tralmek on 09-21-2004 01:39 AM
RockMeGently
Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:10 pm
#43
Ok, maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but someone is complaining about a Quest requirement?
The obvious solution is that if you don't want to spend the xp for the quest, don't. Quests by their nature are optional things. If you want to do more then one thing with your experience, then you're going to have to work harder or make decisions regarding options. What's wrong with this?
Oh wait, I remember, everybody is just supposed to have everything given to them easily. I mean who actually wants to PLAY the game and have to WORK FOR something?
So I'm comfortable with the xp cost and I'm actually comfortable with needing at least novice musician... more goals to work towards 
*Bala pulls out and begins to quietlytune her mandovial*
"Let's Play."
Fragpuppie
Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:27 pm
#44
OK....I should have posted before.....but then again I would have to be editing it now.
My original thought was.....400K...no big...I earn tons of XP and have plenty banked, and I have to earn almost 13 MILLION XP for 1 branch of FS skills.
Then I though about it for a bit..............
When combat classes get a new weapon, how much XP do they pay to learn how to use it?
When crafters got newweapons to make, or buildings, or food (even not looking at limited use ones like the AV-21), how much XP did they have to spend to be able to make them?
Even our sister class, Image design......How much XP did they need to spend to be able to do holomotes and pink hair?
The answer........NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, don't get me wrong........If we just happen to be the first class to get a new skill within existing skill boxes ina newgestalt that means EVERYONE will have to pay XP for any new skill they get ona permanant basis in boxes they already have, then I'm all for it. I'm pissed that we end up being the first ones, but I can get over that as I have been waiting for this song for over a year now.
Is the 400K too high a cost? Well as I never capped my XP at Novice Music or any level other than Tech/Know 4, I cannot say where the cap is. If XP follows at the master level, Ibelieve that you can bank 400K at Music Know or Tech 1 going for 2. MK/T 4 only cost 225K but you can bank 900K at Music Know or Tech 3 (I remember seeing a prerelease game guide that said that Music Know/Tech 4 would cost 450K each....thus the double that XP cap that....go figure....never got changed). Following that 4X thought, you should be able to bank 400K at Music Know/Tech 2 DEFINITELY, and possibly at Music Know/Tech 1. However....if you give it to Nov music... then they should be able to play it! The XP requirement SHOULD be in their grasp.
Here's the part that the Devs NEED to read....
IF this is implemented in live and other classes do NOT get xp costs associated with learning to use new items, craft new things, or aquire new skills in existing skill boxes then I think we should all quit this game or at least entertaining. There would be no reason to continue on as second class citizens.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Warryyr
Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:40 pm
#45
RockMeGently wrote:
Ok, maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but someone is complaining about a Quest requirement?
The obvious solution is that if you don't want to spend the xp for the quest, don't.
Don't worry, if the Quest goes Live as is, without a single Dev post to discuss the matters we brought up in the Feedback Thread in the In Testing section - I won't be doing the Quest. In fact, I very well may tell the Devs where they can put their 400k xp cost new song scroll.
Quests by their nature are optional things. If you want to do more then one thing with your experience, then you're going to have to work harder or make decisions regarding options. What's wrong with this?
Oh wait, I remember, everybody is just supposed to have everything given to them easily. I mean who actually wants to PLAY the game and have to WORK FOR something?
We're not being given anything. We're doing the Quest to GET the song. THAT is WORKING for it. THAT is PLAYING the game, earning the Novice Musician title,completing the Quest, and obtaining it's supposed REWARD. Our "reward," to those of us working towards Force Sensitivity, is actually a punishment to the tune of 40k FS xp.
So I'm comfortable with the xp cost and I'm actually comfortable with needing at least novice musician... more goals to work towards
*Bala pulls out and begins to quietlytune her mandovial*
"Let's Play."
Warryyr
Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:54 pm
#46
All right, I think I've had enough of this discussion. I have nothing further to discuss regarding it, as my opinions have been made known. I simply wanted to alert people to the situation, and allow them to post their thoughts in the Dev thread. The thread was absolutely stagnant, so I thought I'd do my best to get some discussion going regarding it. Some people were unaware of it all, people who were both Entertainers AND pursuing Force Sensitivity, so I thought I'd inform.
I would just like to say that I'm very much shocked and saddened to see some of the inconsiderate remarks that have been made regarding those Musicians who do want Force Sensitive skills, or even *gasp* a Jedi.
Sure, maybe you don't want Force Sensitivity. Maybe you don't want a Jedi. But you know what,you aren't everyone.
Though you may not be interested in exchanging your xp for Force Sensitive xp in the Village, the Devs have provided a category in the Village for interested Entertainers to do so. This costs Music or Dance xp. In a 10 to 1 ratio.
This Quest "reward" which is new content every and I meanEVERY Entertainer wants, is nothing short of a punishment to those who are pursuing Force Sensitivity. And for what. Content we deserve and have thoroughly earned from completing the Quests we're told to do for our reward.
Last minute turnaround, Entertainers! Here's your reward! You can't GET the xp required for the new song! You're only Novice Musician! Thanks for doing our 3 part Quest repeated 3 times - here's your non-rewarding reward. And those of you pursuing Force Sensitivity, go ahead and set yourself back about 11 playing hours in a cantina to get back what you spent to use your new "reward." Congratulations to us, indeed. What a sham.
I've been had.
Thanks to you all for providing your opinions and thoughts on this. I need to get out of here for awhile.
Goodbye.
Message Edited by Warryyr on 09-21-2004 01:56 PM
MusicalDina
Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:13 pm
#47
this is a joke.
either let us 'buy' it for 400k xp, or make us do the wuests. you cant make us do both.
if we have to spend 400k xp to get the song, why do we do the quest?
How come the only content, nay, they only addition to our profession in oh around 6 months makes us pay for our quest reward?
utterly ridiculous. when was the last time you did the theme park and had the quest giver say, "You have completed the quest. Now to get your badge you must pay me all your xp!"
Out-flippin-rageous.
If you want this to be post-master content make it so only masters can do the quest. I cannot understand why anybody would support paying for a quest reward.
Besides the fact this reward only penalizes one type of player. The ones who have their main character an entertainer. Anybody that has the entertainer as a buff bot or an alt, has the xp to get the song anyways, as they dont do anything else with it.
Im NOT doingany FSquests and SOE can go shove it if they expect me to PAY for my quest reward. I was so excited to finally get a new song.
Just off the top of my head, did pistoleers have to do a quest and pay for a certification for the DE-10? How about rifleman for their DXR-6b?
Do medics pay in xp for their stim-a+ schem? Do armorsmiths have to pay xp for RIS schem? Those you have to do quests to get, why dont they pay xp too? Why are we the only ones? Why do we keep getting stepped on ALL OF THE TIME?
Ridiculous.
MusicalDina
Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:16 pm
#48
Adding one more thing.
If you think that the xp requirement makes it sufficiently hard so the reward is worth it. Why doesnt SOE just make the quest harder than?
NewJedi
Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:20 am
#49
MusicalDina:The devs could have made the quests much longer and tougher, and people doubtless would have complained if they had. E.g., they could have made us find 1000 listeners. Or they could have made us do 50 performances. In so doing, they would have taken the charm out of the quests. As they are now, they're fun and lighthearted. I like them as they are. Sure, it would have been nice to have another completely different series of quests to get the schematic, but that would have meant more dev time and more delay. I think this is a good compromise. It gives us a goal. It gives us a *reason* to hang out and perform in the cantina. There are plenty of Musicians who agree with me on this; check out the other thread on this topic. Sure, 400K might be a bit steep, but it's within the realm of reason.
Fragpuppie: as I said to you while we were jamming on TestCenter, I agree with part of your analysis. On the one hand, your analogy isn't completely apt. In most cases, our new abilities are treated the same way new abilities are for crafters and combatants. We fill a skill box, we get a song; they fill a skill box, they get a weapon or schematic. This is post-Master content, essentially, since most Musicians will likely use their XP initially to skill up in Knowledge or Techniques.
On the other hand, I agree with your point about other professions being treated similarly. Maybe a better analogy is the special loot and schematics and weaponsyou get from Jabba's or Nym's or another theme park. To get that stuff, combatants have to do quests that aren't that much more difficult (in terms of time) than the entertainer quests. Well, the rebel and Imp park take a lot of time, but some parks are pretty quick for an experienced combatant. You make a good point that fairness might suggest that a carbineer have to get 400K carbine XP before using a new carbine reward from Nym's, say. Or that you might have to gain 40K combat XP before using a new vehicle won from the corvette. OTOH, some of these rewards *do* come with limits. You loot an exquisite leotard as a quest reward at Jabba's? Tough, you're gonna also have to find another component to go with it, and then find a Master Tailor, before you can get it made into something you can wear. Likewise with weapons loot. So the game already does have some of these other post-Master hurdles. And I'm all for them. That's a point we can agree on, and one I'm happy to pass along to the devs.
You_Myst
Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:29 am
#50
somewhat agree with you newjedi, somewhat disagree... it cant be said the new song and dance are post master content with the novice musician/dancer skill requirement, but with the exp requirement, its post music/dance knowledge 3 content. i just think the best solution would be to require a higher skill than music or dance 2 in the novice entertainer tree shold be required to start the quests(they dont have a chance in the world to use the reward at that level), followed by raising the skill requirement to meet the exp demands OR lower the exp demands to fit the exp cap at novice musician/dancer. this providing the devs dont decide to lift the exp demands entirely...
here is a thought to think on... maybe the exp requirement was only for testing so that they didnt have masses of people log onto the test centers, complete the quest and see the broken dance right away. they may not have expected everyong to get the 400k exp so fast and were hoping to get it fixed before pushing it live(thus we have the second patch delay of it going live)
Fragpuppie
Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:35 am
#51
You_Myst wrote:
here is a thought to think on... maybe the exp requirement was only for testing so that they didnt have masses of people log onto the test centers, complete the quest and see the broken dance right away. they may not have expected everyong to get the 400k exp so fast and were hoping to get it fixed before pushing it live(thus we have the second patch delay of it going live)
I doubt this. Generally, more TC play is encouraged not less. Thus the reason the Frogs appear on the extra TC servers to hand out skills, creds and resources. Slowing people down from testing servers no purpose. I think its their idea of anm additional "cost" to get the song, and opinions have been voiced on the subject.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Founding Member - Frag's Puppies
Contact S'ita for bookings
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
NewJedi
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:23 am
#52
I agree with Fragpuppie. There is every indication that the 400K XP is intended for Live.
I have mentioned to the devs that some Musicians think400K istoo step, and I expect Panthu is doing the same for Dancers.