Musician Archive
Thread: how to kill a buffbot
BurMecas wrote:
There ARE cantinas there, there is a need for their services.I can ocassionallyfind a Master Dancer or Musician in some of them, but on at least 5 different ocassions would not disband from the huge group he/she was in to buff me out of fear of losing their place.
My buffbot's a doctor too.
You wound him.
He heals himself.
You get ignored.
No biggie. I don't do it for the tips, so a few hours of lost income is nothing. I have tens of millions of credits anyway.
PoetDancer wrote:
Its kind of like putting a special order on your public vendor. Sure you can label the backpack, but what is preventing anyone from buying it? One has no leg to stand on when they open themselves up to things like this without taking precautions. Similarly, if you place a character in the game world to manipulate the game without being there to monitor it, and assert no control over who can be invited, then you cannot blame the person who killed the unattended character. You can only blamethe buffbot'scode for inviting the character in the first place. After all, if a player were at the tools of play, a death by this means would never have to occur. So no. There is no griefing when a player kills an unattended character. Because the death would never have occurred if the unattended character did not have /invite or /join in its preprogrammed code, or was able to observe what was being done in order to stop it.
read this as l33t d00d saying: "I am rich, so i don't give a crap about you, and i will make your profession as miserable as possible"
Vermicious_Knid wrote:
No biggie. I don't do it for the tips, so a few hours of lost income is nothing. I have tens of millions of credits anyway.
(then a little look at the sig)
Vermicious Knid-Master Rifleman
Vermicious_Knid wrote:
The problem with the entertainer professions is that you're caught in a catch-22. Many of your peers view buffing, healing, and providing any service as a secondary or tertiary part of being an entertainer, while the paying customers view it as a priority. You don't really want to serve the community, but you don't want anyone else to do it either, unless they do it the "right" way. So the market has passed you by. You choose not to follow it. Too bad for you.
My question to you is this, Vermicious. If buffing to us is second or third on our list of priorities, then what are the first and second priorities? And more to the point, how do these other priorities interfere with giving out buffing and healing effects? Because I really do not understand how playing this thing live makes us poorer buffers. When I am in a cantina, I can buff, interact, heal, create an amusing performance, and do a myriad of things all at the same time. In fact, I cannot help but generate game mechanics when doing a performance. In fact, it really is not up to me to give a player game mechanics at all. Because unless they /watch or listen to me, they cannot receive that which FamousFatWookiee or I have to give them.
And I do not understand why I do not serve the community when I enter into a cantina and perform. Moreover, I do not understand why "the market has passed me by." Do I not participate in the market when I step in a cantina and perform? Do I not sell some sort of product whereby someone may find it valuable? If I do not, why do I get tipped? And if its because people feel sorry for me, what seperates me from the AFK starport beggar? Or for that matter, the AFK buffbot?
I think you have what we do confused with other things, Vermicious. And it is a rather easy facet to be confused about. It is easy to look at our role as similar to doctors. But if that were the case, then why did I get tipped 40k for spending an hour on Dathomir science outpost as a novice dancer performing between two buffbots? Because they never tipped me because I was /watched. They tipped me because I was WATCHED. Moreover, why also did I earn next to nothing entertaining in Moenia for many players who /watched me as the sole entertainer? Because the things that I do through /watchare not all that valuable. In fact, they are worthless. And yes, its true that a sole buffbot at Theed can justify getting on a 10,000 credit join list. But what happens when you put a second buffbot there that only charges 5,000 credits to get on join list? What happens when you place a third buffbot there that does not ask for credits at all? It really does not change the reasons for putting the buffbot there at all.
Because buffbots were never created to service the galaxy. Buffbots were created to service a primary character or a small group of characters. And market dynamics really doesn't play into the reasons buffbots are created. Buffbots are created for the purposes of manipulating the game environment in a way that no player operating under constraints may duplicate.
A buffbot's presence is not any mannifestation of the "invisible hand" that regulates the market amongst rational actors, it is a very "visible hand" toinfluence the game environment in a way a rational actor would never do. Because would a rational actor spendhis or her limited game time servicing a cantina where maybe 15 people use it in a given day? Buffbots do it all the time. Would a rational actor stay online doing nothing but skill animating on Endor for 7 hours straight on the slight chance that someone may need them? Buffbots do it all the time. Would a rational actor truly find enjoyment in becomming a 24/7 dispenser of mechaincs simply for no other reason than to be a 24/7 dispenser of mechanics?
Its impossible to play a buffbot, because rational actors who are self interested do not make the decisions buffbots make. That's why buffbots have to be told what to do by an outside source. And to tell you the truth, Vermicious, the things that make buffbots valuable are not the things they share with entertainer players. They are valuable because they do not act like players at all. Its not the mechanics at all that makes buffbots attractive. Live players do that too. Its the 24/7 manipulation of the environment that makes buffbots attractive, which is something that we cannot do. Its not the fact that the buffbot makes the decision to be of service that makes them attractive. Live players decide every day to be of service. Its the fact that the buffbot has no choice but to dispense service that makes them attractive, which is something we cannot do. That is why they are powerful, pursued, and useful. I do not deny that individuals, cities, and guilds pursue buffbots because they provide them with great advantages. In fact, I understand the advantages all too well.
But if what you expect of entertainer is to mimic a buffbot, Vermicious, I am afraid you are asking the impossible. Because the things that make a buffbot a buffbot cannot be duplicated by players. And its not that I am saying this is right or wrong, but just the truth. But then this begs the question of why even have these professions around at all if the standard of service outstrips the ability to play it?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-17-2004 12:23 AM
I really want to watch how I answer this because I have always felt that your posts are generally constructive and non-inflammatory, unlike some others I could name.
I normally don't like to quote your postswhen commenting on a subject for this reason. Ibelieve that you are really concerned withimproving the experience for entertainers and that youapproach the issue from that perspective, and I respect that.
My point is really nothing new, and I understand that you are capable of conveying the services of healing and buffing while performing atk. I do it myself sometimes. What I see along with that, however, is that most of the players I know, and most of the players I encounter along the way, aren't very interested in the social cantina scene. For many of us, the cantina is a place that we go because we are compelled to go there to lose battle fatigue, mind wounds, and to receive blue buffs.
I know there are a few other ways to do this. The slow auto-heal in med centers, for example. Or TK mediate, which has been a godsend for my main but does not address BF. But for the most part cantinas hold sway over the blue bar.
I'm also aware that mind buffs are not mandatory. They are, however, desirable to many different types of players.
With all of that said, I think that the real difference between the entertainer community and a large segment of the non-entertainer community can be captured beautifully by your statement:
"In fact, it really is not up to me to give a player game mechanics at all. Because unless they /watch or listen to me, they cannot receive that which FamousFatWookiee or I have to give them."
The problem I see there is that many, many people find no value in the intangibles provided by a live entertainer. To be honest, the dances aren't very interesting when you've seen them a thousand times, even when the flourishes are combined cleverly. Musicians aren't much better with their limited songs. I have enjoyed performances by bands or choreographed dance groups, and Balgosa's music videos are just bloody brilliant, but for everyday healing visits to a cantina I can't say that watching a live entertainer holds much appeal for me.
And the greeting and chatting thing really isn't my bag either. A few people are good at it, but most of the chatter I see in cantinas reminds me of the painfully awkward approach one often finds with strippers in real life, as they try to steer their way toward hitting someone up for a dance. And I'm NOT saying that entertainers in game are, or should be, strippers. Just that the banter is often on that level. I enjoyed joking around in group as I was leveling my musician, but that would get old for me too, as I suspect it would for most others who are not part of the small entertainer community.
To summarize: Most people do not, by their observed actions in seeking buffbots, seem to find much added value in a live entertainer. Many entertainers do not seem all that enthused at the thought of being treated or considered as buffing machines, which is understandable. Until one of these things changes, the money situation for entertainers isn't going to get much better. You're either going to have to depend on the occasional healing/buffing tip, or seek out and try to retain those clients who will tip for entertainment alone.
Or you could get an alt, or some secondary non-entertaining skills, which is how the rest of us make money. I regret my above post about having millions of credits, it makes me sound like an ass, but the credits I have were the result of me deciding that a: I didn't really like using my chosen primary profession to make money with missions or hunting, and b: I wanted lots of money to buy the rarer things in game and to fund a jedi when I get one, which I don't have now because I tried the hologrind and hated it. So, I put some time into finding creative ways to use my real-life and in-game skills to make money Any entertainer could do the same, with or without an alt, which would remove the stress of earning a living and allow you to concentrate on finding ways to attract a larger audience for your entertainment, which seems to be a high priority in many posts.
And finally, you asked:
"But if what you expect of entertainer is to mimic a buffbot, Vermicious, I am afraid you are asking the impossible. Because the things that make a buffbot a buffbot cannot be duplicated by players. And its not that I am saying this is right or wrong, but just the truth. But then this begs the question of why even have these professions around at all if the standard of service outstrips the ability to play it?"
To be honest, I don't think there is much call for live healing or buffing right now, and I think the behavior of the playerbase (as ranted about ad nauseam in these forums) shows that to be true. I think that there is some call for entertainment, but not much, and that is partially because afk'ers and spam have wrecked the cantinas for those who liked to go there in the first place. Divorce healing and buffing from the cantina and you at least have a bot-free place to try and put something together for those who want it.As to money, you're going to have to be flexible and improvise. There are a lot of skill points available to a character, and the whole point was to choose what you wanted to do and make sacrifices. Ask any combat player and they'd give their right arm for more skill points, there's no reason non-combat players should be any different. Lots of people take on secondary skills to make money.
I mean none of this as a flame or an insult. Nor do I attempt to justify buffbots. They simply are. I have one, lots of other people have one, and right or wrong they're going to be around for a while, atk or afk. The devs don't seem very concerned with this, so realistically your choices are work around it or do something else with your skill points while you campaign to change the mechanics which allow it in the first place, which is definitely your right.
Sorry so long.
PoetDancer wrote:
Vermicious_Knid wrote:
The problem with the entertainer professions is that you're caught in a catch-22. Many of your peers view buffing, healing, and providing any service as a secondary or tertiary part of being an entertainer, while the paying customers view it as a priority. You don't really want to serve the community, but you don't want anyone else to do it either, unless they do it the "right" way. So the market has passed you by. You choose not to follow it. Too bad for you.
My question to you is this, Vermicious. If buffing to us is second or third on our list of priorities, then what are the first and second priorities? And more to the point, how do these other priorities interfere with giving out buffing and healing effects? Because I really do not understand how playing this thing live makes us poorer buffers. When I am in a cantina, I can buff, interact, heal, create an amusing performance, and do a myriad of things all at the same time. In fact, I cannot help but generate game mechanics when doing a performance. In fact, it really is not up to me to give a player game mechanics at all. Because unless they /watch or listen to me, they cannot receive that which FamousFatWookiee or I have to give them.
And I do not understand why I do not serve the community when I enter into a cantina and perform. Moreover, I do not understand why "the market has passed me by." Do I not participate in the market when I step in a cantina and perform? Do I not sell some sort of product whereby someone may find it valuable? If I do not, why do I get tipped? And if its because people feel sorry for me, what seperates me from the AFK starport beggar? Or for that matter, the AFK buffbot?
I think you have what we do confused with other things, Vermicious. And it is a rather easy facet to be confused about. It is easy to look at our role as similar to doctors. But if that were the case, then why did I get tipped 40k for spending an hour on Dathomir science outpost as a novice dancer performing between two buffbots? Because they never tipped me because I was /watched. They tipped me because I was WATCHED. Moreover, why also did I earn next to nothing entertaining in Moenia for many players who /watched me as the sole entertainer? Because the things that I do through /watchare not all that valuable. In fact, they are worthless. And yes, its true that a sole buffbot at Theed can justify getting on a 10,000 credit join list. But what happens when you put a second buffbot there that only charges 5,000 credits to get on join list? What happens when you place a third buffbot there that does not ask for credits at all? It really does not change the reasons for putting the buffbot there at all.
Because buffbots were never created to service the galaxy. Buffbots were created to service a primary character or a small group of characters. And market dynamics really doesn't play into the reasons buffbots are created. Buffbots are created for the purposes of manipulating the game environment in a way that no player operating under constraints may duplicate.
A buffbot's presence is not any mannifestation of the "invisible hand" that regulates the market amongst rational actors, it is a very "visible hand" toinfluence the game environment in a way a rational actor would never do. Because would a rational actor spendhis or her limited game time servicing a cantina where maybe 15 people use it in a given day? Buffbots do it all the time. Would a rational actor stay online doing nothing but skill animating on Endor for 7 hours straight on the slight chance that someone may need them? Buffbots do it all the time. Would a rational actor truly find enjoyment in becomming a 24/7 dispenser of mechaincs simply for no other reason than to be a 24/7 dispenser of mechanics?
Its impossible to play a buffbot, because rational actors who are self interested do not make the decisions buffbots make. That's why buffbots have to be told what to do by an outside source. And to tell you the truth, Vermicious, the things that make buffbots valuable are not the things they share with entertainer players. They are valuable because they do not act like players at all. Its not the mechanics at all that makes buffbots attractive. Live players do that too. Its the 24/7 manipulation of the environment that makes buffbots attractive, which is something that we cannot do. Its not the fact that the buffbot makes the decision to be of service that makes them attractive. Live players decide every day to be of service. Its the fact that the buffbot has no choice but to dispense service that makes them attractive, which is something we cannot do. That is why they are powerful, pursued, and useful. I do not deny that individuals, cities, and guilds pursue buffbots because they provide them with great advantages. In fact, I understand the advantages all too well.
But if what you expect of entertainer is to mimic a buffbot, Vermicious, I am afraid you are asking the impossible. Because the things that make a buffbot a buffbot cannot be duplicated by players. And its not that I am saying this is right or wrong, but just the truth. But then this begs the question of why even have these professions around at all if the standard of service outstrips the ability to play it?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 07-17-2004 12:23 AM
Message Edited by Vermicious_Knid on 07-17-2004 03:01 AM
Vermicious_Knid wrote:
a) Or you could get an alt, or some secondary non-entertaining skills, which is how the rest of us make money.
b) Ask any combat player and they'd give their right arm for more skill points, there's no reason non-combat players should be any different. Lots of people take on secondary skills to make money.
c) I mean none of this as a flame or an insult. Nor do I attempt to justify buffbots. They simply are. I have one, lots of other people have one, and right or wrong they're going to be around for a while, atk or afk. The devs don't seem very concerned with this, d) so realistically your choices are work around it or do something else with your skill points while you campaign to change the mechanics which allow it in the first place, which is definitely your right.
a) We have 250 skill points. A non-combatant player who enjoys (hope that idea crossed your mind at some point, we may actually enjoy our profession!) entertaining may pick up both master dancer and master musician (master entertainer is almost required for musician since it has an instrument and a song as a reward). That leaves enough skillpoints for 3 skill boxes in any non-hybrid profession. Why should we have to plunk down another $15 a month when our skillpoints cost as much as yours?
b) We take on secondary skills to compliment our profession. Chances are, if you are a TKM, you most likely aren't picking droid engineer (mixing combat with non-combat) to enhance your playing. by the same token, why should an entertainer be forced to do something they loathe to enjoy their profession?
c) If you want to own a buffbot to buff yourself, go ahead. We can't stop you. The day you decide to park said buffbot in the theed/coronet/etc. cantina, and put an invite macro on it to invite random players, you start to infringe upon our enjoyment. Being an ATK buffbot, however wrong, requires effort, which is what we want. When you can turn off your monitor, go watch a movie, and turn the sound off, you aren't putting effort into the game. However, in this lack of effort, you become appealing to other people who want to put no effort (and often, no money) into getting a buff.
You can do that, but really how effective is it going to be? There are so few live entertainers, and so many buffbots. It doesn't seem to be hurting any of the buffbots I know. Some of them have really tight macros that provide countermeasures, some of them buff in private cantinas or houses, etc. And during this time you're running from place to place trying to jam the buffbots you're still not making any money, which seems to be a major concern to most anti-afk'ers.
What I was talking about was a way to take the financial focus off healing and buffing. The buffbots are primarily alts of rich players or businesses. The lost tips for the time you disable them don't mean anything, really.
But you certainly can try to disable them if you want. It's within mechanics.
Warplex wrote:
d) You left out a 3rd option: Use in-game mechanics to solve the problem. You may be a master doctor. many of these "entertainers" are not. We use in game mechanics to work with their in game mechanics (they make a macro that allows us to invite them. We in turn, can make a macro to work with their macro to stop their macro from functioning). This may piss them off in 3 hours when they come back. Who knows, maybe the warning was in spatial. The combat log is filled with "you must be dancing or playing an insturment to execute a flourish." So they go afk again, and come back in 3 hours still spamming the same message. We did use our skill points for our entertainment, at the cost of a NPC.
