Musician Archive
Thread: Do you guys want to totally kill afk Entertaining?
DarkY0da
Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:24 pm
#15
Why does someone need to be on 23/7 ? Darn it all those DE's and Squad Leaders need to get on the ball here. If you love your class you should play it 23/7. I'm going to start spreading the news about this to everyone I know now.
But really though. The DEVs HATE AFKing and Unattended play. No one in this game should be on 23/7 Unless they are on speed or something and just stay up sitting there playing for a solid week.
(which would be rather interesting little iron woman thing to do some place. Have like set break times where they could go to the bathroom. All drinks would be brought to them at certain times. Food of some sort twice a day. See who can stay up playing the longest. Then also give out awards for most money made. Most XP gained. Most Profs Mastered. lol might be sort of entertaining.)
Aleyo
Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:47 pm
#16
First things first, I have to agree with NewJedi.. I've recently created a few characters on other servers for some reason or another, and have not had problems finding live entertainers, despite not knowing *anyone* on the server.
To answer your question more directly, I want to point out that you're absolutely correct that if afk entertainers were eliminated, there would be a big hole in the availability of entertainers as a support class (entertainers, through their bf healing, contribute to the interdependencies that should exist in this game).
But it would be temporary. When there is a need to be filled like this one, it will get filled. In this case, it got filled the easiest way possible, by creating always available npcs that would buff you whenever you needed it. Without the ability to do it afk, you might convince some of your friends to become entertainers to help you out. You might decide to become an entertainer to help your friends out. I'm a master musician *and* master entertainer, but still have enough left over for master TK (not there yet, but soon). I can go hunting with my friends, pve, pvp, and support them by giving them buffs before combat, then beating things up during combat. This would be a lot more common situation if there weren't an easier way to take care of that need.
See my 'chicken or the egg' post for a similar discussion about this issue.
To answer your question more directly, I want to point out that you're absolutely correct that if afk entertainers were eliminated, there would be a big hole in the availability of entertainers as a support class (entertainers, through their bf healing, contribute to the interdependencies that should exist in this game).
But it would be temporary. When there is a need to be filled like this one, it will get filled. In this case, it got filled the easiest way possible, by creating always available npcs that would buff you whenever you needed it. Without the ability to do it afk, you might convince some of your friends to become entertainers to help you out. You might decide to become an entertainer to help your friends out. I'm a master musician *and* master entertainer, but still have enough left over for master TK (not there yet, but soon). I can go hunting with my friends, pve, pvp, and support them by giving them buffs before combat, then beating things up during combat. This would be a lot more common situation if there weren't an easier way to take care of that need.
See my 'chicken or the egg' post for a similar discussion about this issue.
JohnMarble
Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:59 pm
#17
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Many people play this game to kill stuff.
Some people play this game to craft stuff.
A few play to Entertain.
Even those such as yourself who do Entertain may have alts, so may not always be Entertaining.
Actually, if you read Bartle, it's Achievers, Killers, Explorers and Socializers. There isn't an "average"player-type outnumbering any other, it's evenly divided. Unless a game doesn't cater to one type. So you may have a game that achievers hate, but killers love. There may be a game that caters to socializers, and killers have no place in it. SWG was designed to have a place for all player types, and in theory, there should be just as many socializers around to heal the achievers.
You're right, there aren't many socializers anymore, they were here at one time, many quit. Now ask yourself why.
Message Edited by JohnMarble on 07-17-2004 02:00 AM
MrGoat
Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:47 am
#18
To AFK or not to AFK, that is the question. Whether tis nobler to inmind tobelive and suffer the boredom and indignity and poor fortune;or to take arms against the sea of tipless wonders, and by opposing, end them. To dance, to play, no more.
And by a flourish to say we end the boredom, and the thousands of buff-bots we must ignore, tis consumation
all of the action buffs. To play, to dance. Toplay perchance to flourish. Aye, that is the rub,
for in that 100th /flourish, what dreams may come when we have shuffled off this entertainer coil
must give us pause. There's the respect that makes calamity of our profession. For who would
bear the whips and scorns of such a broken profession, the developers forgotten one, the forever delayed,
the insolance of buffbots, the spurns of holotainers and those who see us as little else.
No entertainer returns, no puzzles solved, indeed we bear those ills we have, AND fly to other we do not know of. Thus the dev chat made cowards of us all. Few were the entertainer questions, less even did the answers come.
You see the distant flames
They bellow in the night
You fight in all our names
For what we know is right
And when you all get shot
And can not carry on
Though you die
the Entertainer lives on
They bellow in the night
You fight in all our names
For what we know is right
And when you all get shot
And can not carry on
Though you die
the Entertainer lives on
Beery
Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:44 am
#19
"Musician and Dancer are pretty boring and there isn't much to discuss."
If that's the case, why is it that I only play non-combat roles in the game? Heck, one of my characters has 2 Master professions, around 14 badges, and has never used any of her combat skills at all. Also, if there isn't much to discuss, how is it that I find I'm here on the forums every day, andI've posted more on the entertainer forums thananywhere else?
Beery
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:11 am
#20
"If I go to Coronet Cantina, I will see tons and tons of people afk dancing for the grind. Yet very few people giving Mind Buffs, ATK or AFK. Sure sometimes there are, but usually that's the people who just Mastered and are trying their skills or trying to make money."
I have one question. You seem to think that entertainers should buff purely out of the goodness of their hearts. What game servicedo you regularlydo purelyout of the goodness of your heart? The problem is not that entertainers are unusually selfish compared to other players. The problem is that players in general are selfish. If that wasn't the case, entertainers would make millions of credits per day from tips. But they don't.
Buffing is hard to learn - there is no buffing guide in the official game documents. Try to find one in the current manual. It's not there. If you want to buff, you have to track down secondary sources. Some players can't be bothered to do this, and who can blame casual players (who just want to have fun) for that?
Then there's the matter of creating a macro for buffing. Buffing is hard to do. It requires a lot of things to be managed. You need to get confirmation that the buffee is ready andlistening: You need to flourish at a certain rate; You need to time the buff; You need to inform the buffee when the buff is done. All of these things require at least three macros (I use 5 - yes 5!), otherwise you find yourself flirting with carpal tunnel syndrome as you: 1,explain the buff process and ask for confirmation that the buffee is doing his job; 2, start the mechanics (flourishing)of thebuff; and finally time the buff and tell the customer to stop listening. This is a lot of bureaucraticwork, and games shouldn'tinvolve that sort ofwork.
Also, there's a trust issue. Both buffer and buffee have to trust each other. The buffer never knows for sure if a buff worked or not, so it is open to abuse. Some players simply don't want to get into a fight about money or lay themselves open to abuse.
Then there's the payment issue. Does the buffer ask for payment up front, or does he rely on tips? Given the fact that the end result is unknown, how can a buffer demand payment when the buff might not take. On the other hand, given that players tend not to tip at all, or if they do, they often tip poorly, how do you not demand payment if you want to make a living? Given these things, some feel it's better not to get involved in the first place.
Finally, buffing is rare because only Masters can do it properly. Non-masters can onlybuff at 75% power, and then (because the techbranch is usually the last one attempted by dancers and musicians)only if they have every skill box but one in the Musician tree. Every skill but two gives a 50% buff, and every skill but three gives a 25% buff (which probably isn't worth the time to get at all). That means there's a limited window during a player's involvement in the musician (or dancer)profession where buffing CAN be done. With the best intentions, musicians and dancers will only be able to buff about 5% of the time that they're involved in the profession. Then, when they become masters, the game has so little content aimed at master cantina-basedentertainers that many of them soon go on to explore different aspects of the game (and who can blame them?). This cuts down the availability of buffs even more.
Yourposts seem to imply that the lack of people buffing is scandalous, or at least unusually selfish. In my opinion it's amazing, given the above considerations, that anyone buffs at all. If the sort of intricate mechanics involved in thebuff process were expected of combat professions to fulfill one of their social obligations,the tasksimplywouldn'tget done at all. Just imagine if tipping required 3 macros and 3 minutes to accomplish. Only entertainers, with their inherent social sense (and lack of alternativemoney-making options), are willing to do this kind of work.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-17-2004 01:40 PM
Shaizann
Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:56 am
#21
First off, Straker, I want to thank you for coming here as a non-Entertainer main and going out of your way to have civil conversation on this topic. You are quite unlikely to change the minds of many (if any) persons here with regard to their ideas on afk play. Just as we are unlikely to change your view terribly much.
What I would like to point out is that for more than a few persons on this board entertaining is not in any way shape form or fashion a boring endevour. I played (and continue to play) 100% ATK from the first time I put a Slitherhorn to my lips for Star Wars 1 to Master Entertainer/Musician. Yes, the game play of our professions needs some improvement, but I love doing it as it is. I only hope it gets even better. So, I ask you refrain from blanket statements that say entertainment is boring for all. It is simply not the case, and I am part of the proof.
Yes, I support the abolishment of all forms of afk play. Not just for us, but for all professions. It is and continues to be very odd that SWG's designers put in a system that allows for it. No other MMO that I have played tolerates it. Their justification being that they put macros in the hand of all to disallow for persons savvy and unscrupulous enough to use third party software. However, after four years of EQ I can tell you that if someone was using a macro to say, craft in EQ, it was a fairly obvious thing to see.
I'm getting off track, however. I mainly want to reiterate the point that buffs are not a right they are a privledge. Sweatyclimber already noted the 'good ole days' when folks went buffless to fight and had great stories to tell afterward. I guess it is difficult for people to realize they can have fun and not be a optimal efficiency at all times. The common falsehood is the idea that 'I can't fight if I'm not buffed'. The beasts folks are fighting are not tougher then they were before it is all in their attitude. Buffs are a tool, not a crutch. Sure you may not be able to kill 'a greater gnort' without them, but you can still reasonably take on 'a gnort' without them. Also, not having them leaves less room for error and more chance as you fight. In the end it can result in a more fun gameplay experience due to the enhanced risk and need to think things through.
I realize such an idea is foreign to many who want to have things as easy as possible for them. There is not as much interest in challenge as there is want of reward. Reward comes faster with buffs. Therfore, we will go out of our way to get them even if it means hurting the entertainer classes in this case. I'm not trying to flame/blame you for this, I'm making an observation.
If afk entertainment would be eliminated people may have to search a little extra time for an enterainer, and I do not think that is a bad thing. It may just force a person to meet/talk with someoene they would not have otherwise and have a good experience as a result and make a new friend. If they have the services of a vile bot they would never get that chance, and I think that is a sad thing.
Finally, Entertainment/Social was touted as a viable playstyle in this game and I expect SOE's development team to live up to that. Just as much as I expect the combat professions to function as well as it should. The afk/grind phenomena has curtailed our ability to be social and provide for a nice atmosphere in many public cantinas. It is getting better as Publish 10 approaches, but it wont go away. The best solution I can think of is an abolishment of the abilitty to afk entertain.
What I would like to point out is that for more than a few persons on this board entertaining is not in any way shape form or fashion a boring endevour. I played (and continue to play) 100% ATK from the first time I put a Slitherhorn to my lips for Star Wars 1 to Master Entertainer/Musician. Yes, the game play of our professions needs some improvement, but I love doing it as it is. I only hope it gets even better. So, I ask you refrain from blanket statements that say entertainment is boring for all. It is simply not the case, and I am part of the proof.
Yes, I support the abolishment of all forms of afk play. Not just for us, but for all professions. It is and continues to be very odd that SWG's designers put in a system that allows for it. No other MMO that I have played tolerates it. Their justification being that they put macros in the hand of all to disallow for persons savvy and unscrupulous enough to use third party software. However, after four years of EQ I can tell you that if someone was using a macro to say, craft in EQ, it was a fairly obvious thing to see.
I'm getting off track, however. I mainly want to reiterate the point that buffs are not a right they are a privledge. Sweatyclimber already noted the 'good ole days' when folks went buffless to fight and had great stories to tell afterward. I guess it is difficult for people to realize they can have fun and not be a optimal efficiency at all times. The common falsehood is the idea that 'I can't fight if I'm not buffed'. The beasts folks are fighting are not tougher then they were before it is all in their attitude. Buffs are a tool, not a crutch. Sure you may not be able to kill 'a greater gnort' without them, but you can still reasonably take on 'a gnort' without them. Also, not having them leaves less room for error and more chance as you fight. In the end it can result in a more fun gameplay experience due to the enhanced risk and need to think things through.
I realize such an idea is foreign to many who want to have things as easy as possible for them. There is not as much interest in challenge as there is want of reward. Reward comes faster with buffs. Therfore, we will go out of our way to get them even if it means hurting the entertainer classes in this case. I'm not trying to flame/blame you for this, I'm making an observation.
If afk entertainment would be eliminated people may have to search a little extra time for an enterainer, and I do not think that is a bad thing. It may just force a person to meet/talk with someoene they would not have otherwise and have a good experience as a result and make a new friend. If they have the services of a vile bot they would never get that chance, and I think that is a sad thing.
Finally, Entertainment/Social was touted as a viable playstyle in this game and I expect SOE's development team to live up to that. Just as much as I expect the combat professions to function as well as it should. The afk/grind phenomena has curtailed our ability to be social and provide for a nice atmosphere in many public cantinas. It is getting better as Publish 10 approaches, but it wont go away. The best solution I can think of is an abolishment of the abilitty to afk entertain.
Straker_Atrella
Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:12 pm
#22
DarkY0da wrote:
Why does someone need to be on 23/7 ? Darn it all those DE's and Squad Leaders need to get on the ball here. If you love your class you should play it 23/7. I'm going to start spreading the news about this to everyone I know now.
But really though. The DEVs HATE AFKing and Unattended play. No one in this game should be on 23/7 Unless they are on speed or something and just stay up sitting there playing for a solid week.
(which would be rather interesting little iron woman thing to do some place. Have like set break times where they could go to the bathroom. All drinks would be brought to them at certain times. Food of some sort twice a day. See who can stay up playing the longest. Then also give out awards for most money made. Most XP gained. Most Profs Mastered. lol might be sort of entertaining.)
I'm not saying that ANYBODY should play 24/7, in fact, I think it is the opposite. My point is that the actual live Entertainers don't play 24/7.
Maybe it's a server thing. If I go to Coronet Cantina, I will see tons and tons of people afk dancing for the grind. Yet very few people giving Mind Buffs, ATK or AFK. Sure sometimes there are, but usually that's the people who just Mastered and are trying their skills or trying to make money.
I think it's great that some of you have Entertainers on your "main" characters, cool that you can even hunt with your friends. Yet if all the AFK people went away, would you willingly stop what you were doing to go back to the cantina to buff some people you don't know?
I don't afk my Musician anywhere near other Entertainers, we live on Dant, we have mission terminals right in our city, we have Docs to buff. I AFK my musician in our cantina when I am not using her to make droids. Quite often, I stop what I am doing to kill guildies BF or give mind buffs, simply because nobody else is around. At least on our server there isn't a multitude of "live" Entertainers running around.
When I am not using her, I leave her AFK to help them. If there was a "live" person who wanted to fullfill this service anywhere close, then I wouldn't need too. When people log on, they log on to have fun. Fun is not running all over the galaxy just to kill some BF.
Again, I say give people a REASON to choose the ATK Entertainer over the AFK Entertainer, yet don't make the AFK people go away. It may make Entertainers happy, but will be very inconveniant for everybody else.
Imcus
Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:02 pm
#23
Yes, yes I do.
Not only do I believe that AFK entertainers should be removed, but I think the ability to AFK any profession should be stopped. As of now you can AFK entertainment, sampling, most combat professions as well as other things too. People complain that it takes several days or more to master many of the professions... WELL IT SHOULD. The devs never intended for a profession to be mastered in a day or two. The people who complain that they hate the "time sink" of leveling are usually the powergamers who will not be happy until everything is just handed to them on a silver platter. If you do not want to play the game for the fun it holds, for the experience that it presents then go play something else, this isn't the game for you.There are to many people who play the game as they would other games, looking for the "endgame" (usually that big cut-scene at the end). Those who playnthis game like that will usually never be satisfied.
Straker_Atrella
Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:30 pm
#24
Wow, first, I didn't mean to offend anybody, I'm trying to be fair and pleasent. I hardly mean to imply that the lack of people buffing is unfair or scandalous, nothing like that at all.
All I am saying is that at least on our server, there doesn't seem to be many people who are real live Entertainers giving mind buffs. Perhaps on some servers, real people are fighting AFK people for turf. Not so on Scylla. So because there are not many Entertainer role players around, people use the AFK bots.
I'm not meaning to imply that anything is wrong with people who role play Entertainers, I love Role playing myself, I just don't have the patience to stand for hours every day in the cantina. Sure some days for a couple hours, maybe, but not every day.
That's the thing, if every AFK macro was killed, then at any point of the day, a real live Entertainer would need to be available (and willing) to perform or give buffs. These few people would need to perform for an entire server. Not to mention the inconveniance for the other players in having to travel 2 or 3 planets to get there.
I totally agree that the Performing professions need plenty of love. They need to be made much more viable so that more people are willing to play them. I just think that until that happens, were stuck with AFK macros, a niche must be filled.
Think about this for a second. Entertainers are social people, they love to talk and interact, it is their very nature. What other group of people is MORE likely to come to the boards and talk here? Not many. Yet go to the main professions page and look at the total post counts for Dancer and Musician. Sure the basic professions are low as well, so are Squad leader, which we all know very few people play. You can also see that Dancer and Musician are very low. Yet this is a group of Social people by nature.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not dissing you guys at all. I'm just saying that (sigh) very few people in proportion to other professions really care about Musician and Dancer. Hell I am guilty of that as well. I ground up musician (I was actually ATK a lot,) threw a macro together, and started helping my guild, never looking back. All the while missing the great people and thoughts that are here.
Think about it, how many hard core Entertainers do you know here from the boards or in game? 50? 100? Now divide that by the servers. Do you really think 2 or 3, hell even 20 people can meet the needs 24/7 of a whole server?
Sadly I don't. Perhaps if these professions gets love, then maybe the macros can go, but until then, I still feel that it's to few to service to many.
Now as to not needing buffs.
I can see that, with my Fencer / Rifle, I can kill plenty of stuff, at least lower stuff without buffs. Yet have you ever went Nightsister Hunting without buffs? The Geno caves? For some professions, mind buffs arn't really needed, but for some they are. Rifle specials will kill you quickly without buffs.
People log into the game with a "plan," they want to do what they want to do, this may be hard, it may be easy. However, they should be able to do what they want. For example, if a scout wants to log in and get some good Wild Meat from Dantoine, he should be able too. Sure he may need to find buffs to do it, but he can.
I do agree people are to reliant on buffs, but in some cases they are very much needed.
Other games do allow AFK macros. Asheron's Call, will let you have a macro going as long as it isn't a Combat one. Buffbots, Portal Bots, and Tradebots abound. It is felt that these add convieniance to the game.
Perhaps my years there have skewed my view.
Shaizann
Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:55 pm
#25
"Wow, first, I didn't mean to offend anybody, I'm trying to be fair and pleasent. I hardly mean to imply that the lack of people buffing is unfair or scandalous, nothing like that at all.
All I am saying is that at least on our server, there doesn't seem to be many people who are real live Entertainers giving mind buffs. Perhaps on some servers, real people are fighting AFK people for turf. Not so on Scylla. So because there are not many Entertainer role players around, people use the AFK bots.
I'm not meaning to imply that anything is wrong with people who role play Entertainers, I love Role playing myself, I just don't have the patience to stand for hours every day in the cantina. Sure some days for a couple hours, maybe, but not every day."
Understood, bro, and I appreciate you clarifying it. Well on Bria I can assure you we the live entertainers are fighting for space against the buffbots every day. No offense taken.
"That's the thing, if every AFK macro was killed, then at any point of the day, a real live Entertainer would need to be available (and willing) to perform or give buffs. These few people would need to perform for an entire server. Not to mention the inconveniance for the other players in having to travel 2 or 3 planets to get there.
Now as to not needing buffs.
I can see that, with my Fencer / Rifle, I can kill plenty of stuff, at least lower stuff without buffs. Yet have you ever went Nightsister Hunting without buffs? The Geno caves? For some professions, mind buffs arn't really needed, but for some they are. Rifle specials will kill you quickly without buffs.
People log into the game with a "plan," they want to do what they want to do, this may be hard, it may be easy. However, they should be able to do what they want. For example, if a scout wants to log in and get some good Wild Meat from Dantoine, he should be able too. Sure he may need to find buffs to do it, but he can."
Again, I'll reiterate my stance that buffs are not a right, nor an absolute need to play. I do understand that someone may not get to do all the cool things they want because they do not have a buff, but they can stil play. As far as a plan goes I'd like to point out that famous Steinbeck idea from "Of Mice and Men": "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry..." Meaning, you can have a plan for your play (I often do) but you need to be prepaared to change if you need to. In this context that means you need to be prepared to not get buffs and mabye settle for lesser prey for now. Things happen and that is life (or virtual life in this case). It is part of the game.
"Other games do allow AFK macros. Asheron's Call, will let you have a macro going as long as it isn't a Combat one. Buffbots, Portal Bots, and Tradebots abound. It is felt that these add convieniance to the game.
Perhaps my years there have skewed my view."
I suppose the same could be said for me. I have not played a game that had such an extensive macro system as this. Certainly not one that allowed an entire profession to be replicated via the system. Tell me, are the bots in AC hurt the revenue and/or experience of the live players as is the case here?
All I am saying is that at least on our server, there doesn't seem to be many people who are real live Entertainers giving mind buffs. Perhaps on some servers, real people are fighting AFK people for turf. Not so on Scylla. So because there are not many Entertainer role players around, people use the AFK bots.
I'm not meaning to imply that anything is wrong with people who role play Entertainers, I love Role playing myself, I just don't have the patience to stand for hours every day in the cantina. Sure some days for a couple hours, maybe, but not every day."
Understood, bro, and I appreciate you clarifying it. Well on Bria I can assure you we the live entertainers are fighting for space against the buffbots every day. No offense taken.
"That's the thing, if every AFK macro was killed, then at any point of the day, a real live Entertainer would need to be available (and willing) to perform or give buffs. These few people would need to perform for an entire server. Not to mention the inconveniance for the other players in having to travel 2 or 3 planets to get there.
Now as to not needing buffs.
I can see that, with my Fencer / Rifle, I can kill plenty of stuff, at least lower stuff without buffs. Yet have you ever went Nightsister Hunting without buffs? The Geno caves? For some professions, mind buffs arn't really needed, but for some they are. Rifle specials will kill you quickly without buffs.
People log into the game with a "plan," they want to do what they want to do, this may be hard, it may be easy. However, they should be able to do what they want. For example, if a scout wants to log in and get some good Wild Meat from Dantoine, he should be able too. Sure he may need to find buffs to do it, but he can."
Again, I'll reiterate my stance that buffs are not a right, nor an absolute need to play. I do understand that someone may not get to do all the cool things they want because they do not have a buff, but they can stil play. As far as a plan goes I'd like to point out that famous Steinbeck idea from "Of Mice and Men": "The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry..." Meaning, you can have a plan for your play (I often do) but you need to be prepaared to change if you need to. In this context that means you need to be prepared to not get buffs and mabye settle for lesser prey for now. Things happen and that is life (or virtual life in this case). It is part of the game.
"Other games do allow AFK macros. Asheron's Call, will let you have a macro going as long as it isn't a Combat one. Buffbots, Portal Bots, and Tradebots abound. It is felt that these add convieniance to the game.
Perhaps my years there have skewed my view."
I suppose the same could be said for me. I have not played a game that had such an extensive macro system as this. Certainly not one that allowed an entire profession to be replicated via the system. Tell me, are the bots in AC hurt the revenue and/or experience of the live players as is the case here?
Shaizann
Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:59 pm
#26
Oh, and on another note, if you decide to create an alt on Bria for any reason, feel free to put me on your friends list and I'll be happy to Music Buff you at a reasonable price. 