Musician Archive

Thread: Recursive macros are being removed!

NewJedi
Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:01 pm
#27
Kasteu and others: the precise implementation remains to be seen. My fellow correspondent Tiaga has a stronger background in computers than I do, and he's already on the case, proposing a vast array of detailed alternatives to the devs. They're not going to remove *all* macro functionality.


I personally think this change is in the long-term interests of the game as a whole, not just entertainers. I have friends outside the game who deride it as "SWG: An Empire AFK." I know people who've mastered Brawler and TKA while AFK. That just seems wrong to me. Yes, some professions will be adversely affected in the short term, but this change will inevitably lead to more pressure on the devs to fix those parts of the game that are tediously repetitive. At the very least, they could change crafting so that chain-crafting is possible without a recursive macro (but still require mouse clicks to load ingredients). A better fix would be to make crafting like combat, as EQ2 is doing. Smugglers use the macros to circumvent the tedium associated with FP trading. Again, the best long-term solution is to eliminate that tedium. If combatants find it tedious to master TKA, then the game needs more quests and dungeons to make the process more fun.
SmedleyLlama
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:13 pm
#28




neinnunb wrote:

I am currently leveling up in musician (for the 2nd time). My first musician grind was a better experiencebecause there were hardly any AFK entertainers; it was before the holo grind and the advent of buff bots. Now Im finding the musician leveling less enjoyfull because I have to stand next to bots. People dont tip because to them why tip a buff bot? So they pretend to "listen" to the botand ignore the real entertainers so they are not forced to tip us.


This news about eliminating looping macros is wonderful news and has renewed my desire to keep playing music.






I'm just curious... If people don't tip because there are AFKentertainers around, what makes you think they will suddenly start tipping after they are gone? I seem to recall entertainers clamoring about not making any money back before the macros even raised their heads.



.


StikerRunningfly
Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:26 pm
#29




Kasteu wrote:

But youdon't have to use macros to AFK grind any of the combat professions. You just stand in the middle of a spawn area and let them attack you. Likewise you don't need to run a macro to buff, so it won't prevent buff bots.





It will prevent buffbots. There are 2 options for buffing. The first istodirect the performance to someone by targetting them and typing /setperform. The second option is to join a group and buff while in the group. The way it will stop buffbots is that once the initial macro is finished, there will be no way to direct the performance with them unless you are sitting at the computer typing in the correct command. Likewise, there will be no way to join the group to buff them that way unless you are sitting there clicking the accept button or typing /join. Now there may be some instances where someone will write a long string of macros, each one pausing long enough to wait for the last one to finish, but they will run out sometime as well.


Now for those of you complaining about actually having to be polite to someone now in order to get a buff. If you don't want to interact with people, I suggest you go play something that isn't a MMORPG. The key in that being the second M for Multi-player. The definition of the type of game says it all. You play with other people. If you want to play alone, go play Knights of the Old Republic or something.


Klayton

Master Entertainer/Musician/Dancer

Shadowfire
StikerRunningfly
Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:48 pm
#30




MonsofoLexius wrote:




NewJedi wrote:

AFK'ers degrade the game experience of the rest of us. They devalue my profession. They make it more convenient for someone to get their heal or a buff from a bot than from me. They fill up a room with garbage spam that can't always be filtered out. That's what's wrong with AFKers.






Is the problem really with the buff bots? Yes, these are the people who set up by the front door of a cantina and spam that they are buffing, and howeasy it is just invite, the bot will auto join, and who really cares about those people inside who are there playing their characters? A couple weeks ago, I had someone ask me for training, I gave it to her, then she promptly dropped from the group and set up next to the door to be a buffbot while she went to play her alt. It was very much like a slap in the face at this point. Or is it more with the profession grinders? These are equally a problem. It's not just hologrinders that are at fault here. There are many people who decide they want to try dance or music, set up a macro, and go do something else. For example, today I was playing and the group leader decided to go afk. Several other people came in and wanted invites to the group (there was plenty of room in the group, except the leader was MIA). They eventually gave up and made a second group. This wouldn't seem like much of a problem, except that an entertainer's XP is partially based on how many people are in the group. More dancers = more dancer xp. More musicians = more musician xp. So at this point there were about 15 people who were only getting about half of the xp they could have been getting all because 1 particular person was afk (incidently, he noticed the big xp hit when me and another master musician left the group for the other group and made a huge effort to get us all in one group, but by then, 3 more were afk so this was a dead situation). Plus, it's VERY boring to have to stare at several people around you, knowing there is no one home.If the problem is really with the hologrinders then don't you think they will just find a way around it? I think the real answer is to eliminate the holgrind, see how things go then look maybee at eliminating buff bots. See above.


To play much of this game already takes waytoo much time to get "set up". I think there is still too much that needs a good fix (CB, mind pool ruling in PvP, etc) before they remove our ability to have a buffbot. I am not against this idea, just not now. Many many good ATK dancers and musicians have quit the game over this issue, and many more were most likely going to quit if this were allowed to continue. A better time to fix it would have been months ago, but honestly, if it were allowed to continue much longer, there would be even less ATK entertainers to pick up the slack when it did finally get ended.






My comments are in green.


Klay

Message Edited by StikerRunningfly on 08-02-2004 04:49 PM

Kasteu
Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:17 pm
#31


Yes good point with the /join being macros. Something I actually over looked.


However, this implementation is still pretty narrow minded in what affect it will have. Yes, some of the desired effects will take place but others won't and will carry on as normal.


If they are going to fix AFK abuse (which I do want to see) then it should be addressed globally not just escentially nerfing a few professions.


I know I've not posted on the Musican forum very much (once before I think), but I've been a master musican for 9 month and really love it. My concern is simply about this"fix" damaging a profession I enjoy. Thereare other means to fixing this issue, without nerfing (removing) features people use while actually playing. Sadly though this is the easiest option, they just have to switch off a command. Its lazy and its thought less.
Cudayn
Mon Aug 02, 2004 6:24 pm
#32
Heh, I went and took my lumps and bruises (Beat to a bloody pulp more like it) in the main thread. There really are a lot of people who really prefer to have the game set to auto-pilot, which is really sad. We definately need more content, but hey, its "a comin' round the corner" soon to a Monitor near you!


I will be glad when this takes effect, and when publish 10 hits. I will then take up residence in the Bestine cantina on Lowca once again. I am still in the area, but with the bots, spammers, afkers, hecklers(occasionally), rude, non tipping, forceful - Do me now! types, I have just been logging my lil Durney maybe once or twice a week.


I do feel sorry for some of these people because they have never "played" the game, but rather just ground it out and they can not seem to find any joy in just being around or doing the "small stuff". Hopefully when all this is implemented people will see that this is a good thing. And for all the new players that come to the game after this change, what a blessing they will have, never having had to go thru all this junk.


Its not just a game.......its a way of life


Durney Kova

Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer


And the (2) Dunks and Lucius too
Cudayn
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:00 pm
#33




Kasteu wrote:
Isn't this going to affect "song composition"?

I know many a musican (including myself) that enjoy macroing flourishes (around 1 per 3 seconds) to at least in someway come up with a tune that is semi personised. If recurtion is removed, it will mean no more looping and some very long macros.

Why can't they just remove the ability to switch off the auto AFK and stop macros working while AFK!!!

To be honest, if this goes ahead I can see many dropping musician and dancer. Well those who actually play their character as a pure entertainer anyway

Message Edited by Kasteu on 08-02-2004 08:37 AM



Not flaming you at all Kasteu, but one of my characters, is a "pure entertainer" and the recursive macro being removed has made me hope they get rid of it like tomorrow and bring on publish 10 ASAP as well. It has renewed my hope for the entertainer because it kills dead, the Bots and AFKers. I was told to my face (well my characters face ) that even though I am a Master Entertainer and Master Musician, that I didn't need the XP but the AFKer did, so even though the person had an almost black mind bar, he was going to just watch the AFKer. That sort of kills the desire to be an entertainer.


I have a crafter toon and two combat toons, I do not use recursive macros on either of the combat toons and have only once used a recursive macro while crafting, just to test it. Yes it was neet, but I had always just clicked on my single macro per crafting tool, and I didn't use it again afterwards because I hated to have to /dump to go answer the phone, etc.


I hope the entertainers, like yourself that use recursive macros, will try and accept the change. As we know, it could always change again. And it probably will. But I hope we can give this a few months to see what the long term effects are. There just seem to be way to many doom and gloomers running around now, when IMHO, the changes they are making are going to be better for the game in the long term. So sure it may cause some of us a little discomfort right when they implement it, but we can still play the same game, and do the same things we have always done, it will just have to be a bit differnt, oh and without Buff-Bots and AFKtainers


Durney Kova


Master Entertainer / Master Musician / Master Image Designer / Novice Dancer


Also D,D & L


Drygo
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:08 pm
#34




Cudayn wrote:

Heh, I went and took my lumps and bruises (Beat to a bloody pulp more like it) in the main thread. There really are a lot of people who really prefer to have the game set to auto-pilot, which is really sad.





I know. I don't understand it and I never will. I mean, all the things that attracted me to this game when I first started playing had everything to do with the multiple options of gameplay and the interdependence. If I didn't have this, I wouldn't play. As many of you know I did quit, but I resubscribed the moment I found out this news. I don't understand why so many people are so upset over this, I really don't. People have a right to their opinions, of course, but they act like it's the end of the world. They don't realize that very handy and strong macros are still in the game. They also don't realize that interdependence is one of the strong points of this game and the very reason so many started playing in the first place.


The problem is people had something, and then it got taken away. This never goes over very well. But, I'm so glad it happened. This game is truly going to be so much better for the people that stick around, they just don't know it.


What we're going to see is an exodus among two groups. One, the group that is too blinded by hatred and being unable to play a multiplayer game by themselves. Frankly, I think the game is better off without them. And, the second group, is the group of alt buffbots. Again, the game is way better off without them.


On the other hand we have people such as myself, several of which I've seen posted that they've resubscribed because of this. And, then we've got the new players that come in daily, and the huge influx of players that we're going to see when JTL is released. These players will not know the recursive macro. These players will not get used to it and will think everything is normal and hunky dory.A month after the recursive macro goes away, if implemented correctly, you will see that most people will go on about their normal gameplaying lives, find ways to still do what they want to do very effectively, and it will be a thing of the past. You'll hold onto a lot of long term actual players this way, while you lose some grinders who would have quit sooner anyway because they've reached the endgame and find themselves bored because they have no idea of how to play with others.


Personally, I think that when all is said in done, you're not only going to have a stronger community, but you're going to have a higher percentage of retention. When all is said and done, SWG is going to lose a small percentage of their accounts from this in the short term, but gain a huge retention and new player percentage in the long term. This is going to be a great thing, and people will eventually find that out. We just have to ride the storm.



- I support hawtpants
Cudayn
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:18 pm
#35




Drygo wrote:



As many of you know I did quit, but I resubscribed the moment I found out this news.




WOOT !!! Welcome back



NewJedi
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:31 pm
#36
Welcome back, Drygo!


I strongly believe that this change is not only in the best interests of entertainers, but also of the wider game. It will put greater pressure on the devs to eliminate the tedium that creates the need for recursive macros in the first place. And lively cantinas with real players are more fun for (almost) everyone.
Cudayn
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:46 pm
#37
Wow, we have a one star bandit running around and they are gunning for you NJ! Take cover! hehe


Durney
velkrohd
Mon Aug 02, 2004 7:55 pm
#38
I have to be honest... I thought about this and I really think that this will be a good thing. THough I have not been part of the musician community for too long it seems as if this should bring back some of the integrity and interactivity that I feel was originally intended for the dancer and musician professions. Kudos devs!



Viile Dak'Tal - Proud Member of the Ranks of the Ruby Cardinals - Rebel
MonsofoLexius
Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:00 pm
#39




StikerRunningfly wrote:



MonsofoLexius wrote:


Is the problem really with the buff bots? Yes, these are the people who set up by the front door of a cantina and spam that they are buffing, and howeasy it is just invite, the bot will auto join, and who really cares about those people inside who are there playing their characters? A couple weeks ago, I had someone ask me for training, I gave it to her, then she promptly dropped from the group and set up next to the door to be a buffbot while she went to play her alt. It was very much like a slap in the face at this point. Or is it more with the profession grinders? These are equally a problem. It's not just hologrinders that are at fault here. There are many people who decide they want to try dance or music, set up a macro, and go do something else. For example, today I was playing and the group leader decided to go afk. Several other people came in and wanted invites to the group (there was plenty of room in the group, except the leader was MIA). They eventually gave up and made a second group. This wouldn't seem like much of a problem, except that an entertainer's XP is partially based on how many people are in the group. More dancers = more dancer xp. More musicians = more musician xp. So at this point there were about 15 people who were only getting about half of the xp they could have been getting all because 1 particular person was afk (incidently, he noticed the big xp hit when me and another master musician left the group for the other group and made a huge effort to get us all in one group, but by then, 3 more were afk so this was a dead situation). Plus, it's VERY boring to have to stare at several people around you, knowing there is no one home.If the problem is really with the hologrinders then don't you think they will just find a way around it? I think the real answer is to eliminate the holgrind, see how things go then look maybee at eliminating buff bots. See above.


To play much of this game already takes waytoo much time to get "set up". I think there is still too much that needs a good fix (CB, mind pool ruling in PvP, etc) before they remove our ability to have a buffbot. I am not against this idea, just not now. Many many good ATK dancers and musicians have quit the game over this issue, and many more were most likely going to quit if this were allowed to continue. A better time to fix it would have been months ago, but honestly, if it were allowed to continue much longer, there would be even less ATK entertainers to pick up the slack when it did finally get ended.






My comments are in green.


Klay

Message Edited by StikerRunningfly on 08-02-2004 04:49 PM




Well thank you for adding your your comments. My only real big problem (as my second post outlined) is that we will still be in the place we were before the big buff bots problem (and hologrinding) started:



  • There was a shortage of master entertainers buffing

  • A majority of my guilds playtime is off hours (last 3 or 4 hours before reset)

  • We are close to Moenia, Naboo. A GHOST town.

  • there are far fewer players in the gamenow thenthere were before the hologrind

  • As we advance as players the mind pool is more a factor than ever and mind buffs are sorely needed

  • With player cities the active player base is much more spread out now

I am not against Entertainers. I just think this is a "cut off mt leg, because my toe hurts" solution.





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