Musician Archive
Thread: buffbots :(
So correct me if I'm wrong. Your argument is that having buff bots is much more beneficial to the star wars universe and this game than having actual entertainers in a cantina?
See, now, here is the irony. You wouldn't need the buffbots if there were a good amount of entertainers in the galaxy. There would be a good amount of entertainers in the galaxy if there weren't buffbots and hologrinders. I know this because there were before those phenomena started.
It's a catch-22. I understand your position. You just need the buffs. You probably don't care if it's a live entertainer or a bot that delivers it. But I do. And if we can get the game back to a state where the entertainers feel worthwhile again and their numbers are bolstered, we can both be happy. You'll get your buffs and we'll get our cantinas back. Problem is to get there we need to upset the status quo and the rest of the professions don't care enough about the entertainment community to change what already works.
picklesSW wrote:
"Now I understand why you don't like Buff Bots, they steal your fun and they steal yourmoney. Howeveryou must agree theIdea of getting rid of Buff Bots definately effects more than just the "entertainer professions"."
See, now, here is the irony. You wouldn't need the buffbots if there were a good amount of entertainers in the galaxy. There would be a good amount of entertainers in the galaxy if there weren't buffbots and hologrinders. I know this because there were before those phenomena started.
It's a catch-22. I understand your position. You just need the buffs. You probably don't care if it's a live entertainer or a bot that delivers it. But I do. And if we can get the game back to a state where the entertainers feel worthwhile again and their numbers are bolstered, we can both be happy. You'll get your buffs and we'll get our cantinas back. Problem is to get there we need to upset the status quo and the rest of the professions don't care enough about the entertainment community to change what already works.
)Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-22-2004 10:33 AM
Akkurscid wrote:
My problem is,I can not even get my armor on with out a secondary mind buff, I can use Brandy for that but then I will Incap Myself, If I fire any "normal amount" of specials with my Carbine.(compared to say a pistoleer/TKM who will fire a special with every shot/hit)If I can't get a seconday Stat buff, I might as well call it a night.
See, this is the part I really don't understand.
Now, I'm not a combat specialist, but I do some combat. It may not be enough though, which is why I'm asking this:
Why is it assumed that all armor has to be sliced for effect and weapons for damage and then you just get buffs? I mean, when I look for a weapon or for armor, I carefully look at ALL aspects. This includes damage AND special cost. Encumbrance AND effect. People are just so addicted to being buffed that they can't go out hunting without it, and that's just wrong.
Honestly, the best thing the Devs could do is just nerf the heck out of buffs, or get rid of them all together. Yes, that means Entertainers as well. I mean, combat would mean something then. Defending a base, which should go to the defender most of the time, wouldn't always be a losing proposition since the defenders aren't buffed. Soloing Rancors shouldn't be an everyday occurance (remember watching RotJ and Rancors were scary?)
I know, I'll get flamed for this. All I can say is I believe that buffs ruined the game. This is my opinion.
Akkurscid wrote:
Basically all of theentertainer Professions are"boring" Professions for most people. Standing around for long peroids of time in the same place,doing the same thing over and over, with the same music blasting away in your ear, justisn't much fun for most gamer types.
Oh and please stop whining about stacked defense? I've heard it in two threads, and it's getting old. You have the same amount of SP as everyone else does, and your choices will always gimp you one way or another. You can't have it all, stop wanting to be able to be uber in combat and self-healable, it won't happen. There is thing called opportunity cost. It is the cost (in time or money) you incur when you choose to do one thing over another, since you only have limited time and limited resources (it's an economics term... but in this case time and resources are SP). A stacker's opportunity cost is having to wait for heals and buffs, while a combat + healer (of any kind) might not be as uber, he can re-buff after he dies quicker, and is also more versatile. In the end, the former depends on the latter for healing and buffing, while the latter depends on the former for combat help. Remember, there is a second M in MMORPG, it stands for MULTIPLAYER. That means you have to rely on others. Scary isn't it? You might have to actually talk to someone or buy a product or service from them.
/rantoff
Tokaf wrote:
Akkurscid, it seems you are telling us that since we are a minority, and that since the rest of the SWG society would rather buffbots be around that that makes them ok? No I am saying"The lack of availble entertainers of suitable level means that In my Opinionthey are currently necesary."
The game design might be utilitarian in nature, but buffbotting is an absolute wrong, In your opinionnot one that can smoothed over by saying that "well most people would rather them exist." Of course I never said this but again in your opinion.
I'm sorry, but people seem to never understand the consequences of their actions, i.e. they cry "nerf, nerf" not realizing that a new profession will be FOTM and then be nerfed, and the process repeats ad infinitum. Kinda like what you are doing to a (IMO) necessaryservice, namely the Buff Bot.
SOE needs to take an altruistic attitude and do what is best for the community, not what the most people want. You mean do what best for the community right? Like getting rid of the FOTM club?
The bottom line is, the recursive macro needs the boot, and no one has argued well in its defense. Again in your opinion, which is of course biased because you are an entertainer,while on the other handI'm a MBH which is why I need to have buffs on demand, and this forum has already stated that they will not be on around the clock.
Oh and please stop whining about stacked defense? I've heard it in two threads, and it's getting old. Old after two threads? I have the feeling you are or have access to a FOTM. One of the people in the dancer forumdidn't know a thing about it .
You have the same amount of SP as everyone else does, and your choices will always gimp you one way or another. Sure, however game balance should be observed, as MBH I can assure you that aFOTM worth his saltwill kick my Ass, yet hemayhave actually spent less SP then me. This is not my fault it is a design flaw in the game. Even if I were another profession this would still be true for MBHso it is not In my opinion.
You can't have it all, stop wanting to be able to be uber in combat and self-healable, it won't happen. This statementdoes not apply to me. Remember I say nerfing Stackable Defenses will free up Skill Points. I'm MBH. I will have only 33 sp left no matter if they nerf Stackable Defenses or not.
There is thing called opportunity cost. It is the cost (in time or money) you incur when you choose to do one thing over another, since you only have limited time and limited resources (it's an economics term... but in this case time and resources are SP). A true statement.
A stacker's opportunity cost is having to wait for heals and buffs, while a combat + healer (of any kind) might not be as uber, he can re-buff after he dies quicker, and is also more versatile. Here is another onethat is my opinion.."A stacker is a game disrupting practice," kinda like a buff bot. "Unlike a buff bot however there is no actual need for it, since it does not provide a service to the SWG community and infact takes away from it." It takes away from itby causing people to have to cram themsleves into narrow skill sets. However it is not that stacking defenses is a cheat, but atm it is required to be a competive combatant and therefore should be removed.
In the end, the former depends on the latter for healing and buffing, while the latter depends on the former for combat help. The DEVs have said they do not want Crafter only templates. Sorry to say they aren't going to get crafters into Combat Professions when these people lag considerably behind the FOTM. So while you are correct. The super powerful Profession combinations are actually a developeroversight. The Jedi is suposed to be the most powerful Combat Profession followed by Commandos in groupsand MBHfor one on one Duels. Each of the other combat classs are supposed to be relatively equal, favoring one or the other depending on circumstances. Hybreds are already covered in Commando and MBH. A Melee/Ranged combo is supposed to be moreversitile not twice as powerful.
Remember, there is a second M in MMORPG, it stands for MULTIPLAYER. That means you have to rely on others. Scary isn't it? You might have to actually talk to someone or buy a product or service from them. Mutiplayer also means that there are more opinions than your own to consider you have already stated the SWG community wants Buff Bots I have stated they are needed because there are not enough Entertainers andthatI would like to see them go but not untill the Stackable Defenses are gone.
/rantoff
Meh, you clearly don't understand...
Not enough Entertainers = need Buff Bots. I prefer live ones but if they are not availible then what is the alternative? Play Planetside?
Stackers have no problems thats why they are able to cutthrough Jedis as if they were butter.
The "few" stackers are causing eveyone to have to stack. If stackers go bye bye then everyone will have more free skill points (because they will have no need to take only the fencer defense line if it don't work without a sword) = more people with the entertainer/crafter/ranger profession.
Uber profession? I'm an MBH lol.
Community means a group of people. Whats best for the community is not always what a portion of the community likes. This may or may not include my feelings,I understand that.
Message Edited by Akkurscid on 06-23-2004 03:53 AM
I'd like to address some of these statements.
Akkurscid wrote:
My problem is,I can not even get my armor on with out a secondary mind buff, I can use Brandy for that but then I will Incap Myself, If I fire any "normal amount" of specials with my Carbine.(compared to say a pistoleer/TKM who will fire a special with every shot/hit)If I can't get a seconday Stat buff, I might as well call it a night.
These statements are NOT justification for buffbots. They are justification for fixes to Carbineer and a better balance in armor.
If I can't get a Muscian and Dancer Buff, No PVP for me. Jedi Missions are right out.
Again not Entertainer issues. Its great that we help with these pursuits, but we are not involved. Not being able to PVP cannot be blamed on not getting entertainer buffs.
This of course affects alot of other people than just MBH of course. Like thosewho like to play Overt Reb/Imp, or go to the GeoCaves/DeathWatch Bunker regularly. It definately affects Jedi's who don't have a second accout of Master dancer/muscian.(but what Jedi dosen't lol)
And this is a wonderful point. Getting rid of buffbots would affect EVERYONE. Not just you, overt Imps and Geo/DW players. Even that Jedi would not be able to use em. Noone would be able to get their armor on, just like you cannot. All carbineers would have issues with specials. AND......EVERYONE in pvp would have the same chance to get entertainer buffs.
Your own argument against you.
Now I understand why you don't like Buff Bots, they steal your fun and they steal yourmoney. Howeveryou must agree theIdea of getting rid of Buff Bots definately effects more than just the "entertainer professions".
EVERYONEis affected by this change, and everyone is affected EQUALLY except entertainers who play ATK. They get the fun of having demand for their services again and being treated like people again rather than machines and they get profit from being able to charge a fair market price and not have it undercut by someone not even atk. AFK buffbots are affected differently too. They lose their business, and SOE may lose their accounts, but our argument is that the AFK bot model is not how the game was intended and is not good for the people who want to play the profession. Everyone else would just have to start looking for ATK entertainers or buy second computers so they can buff with account 1 on computer 1 and receive on account 2 on computer 2.
Fragpuppie Uber
Master Entertainer, Master Musician
Guild Leader - Performer United Professional Society (PUPS)
Band Leader and Booking Agent - Frag's Puppies
President and CEO - Fragpuppie Enterprises and Uber Instruments
Coronet, Corellia, Chilastra
Kreistor wrote:
See, this is the part I really don't understand.
Now, I'm not a combat specialist, but I do some combat. It may not be enough though, which is why I'm asking this:
Why is it assumed that all armor has to be sliced for effect and weapons for damage and then you just get buffs? I mean, when I look for a weapon or for armor, I carefully look at ALL aspects. This includes damage AND special cost. Encumbrance AND effect. People are just so addicted to being buffed that they can't go out hunting without it, and that's just wrong.
Honestly, the best thing the Devs could do is just nerf the heck out of buffs, or get rid of them all together. Yes, that means Entertainers as well. I mean, combat would mean something then. Defending a base, which should go to the defender most of the time, wouldn't always be a losing proposition since the defenders aren't buffed. Soloing Rancors shouldn't be an everyday occurance (remember watching RotJ and Rancors were scary?)
I know, I'll get flamed for this. All I can say is I believe that buffs ruined the game. This is my opinion.
Tokaf wrote:
Just because what I say is an "opinion" doesn't mean you can ignore it. This is a fair argument. However consider that entire posts by youare based on only one or two personal opoinions. i don't discount them but I can not be expected to offer a different fact each time you restate your opinion.
Notice how the BH profession has little or no defensive mods already? You won't get any from the nerfing of stacking. I know this, and I have already stated it, you agree with me here,it would be better if you admit it and move on.
Anyway, STOP MAKING EXCUSES. ???
You don't NEED buffs on demand, you WANT them, stop thinking that want and need are the same word. Ok this is good, but is easily refuted. "If you want to be competive you need to be buffed." End of story, an unbuffed MBH isn't even going to scratch a buffed Jedi. There is no "I want it because I like to show off my huge mind bar."
You might WANT a Lexus, but you don't NEED one. Sure, good point, if I didn;t know the difference between want an need.
Your cookie cutter response of, "it's just your opinion" or "lets fix combat first" skirt the issue... *sigh* again this is your opinion because they don't. I directly connected the Issue and even provided an example.
You say buff bots are need because ATK entertainers are sparce? What did you do before buffs? Oh that's right, you never thought one way or the other about it. The other guys didn't have Buffs either. And yes we did we had to get our armor as low in the HAM cost as possible. we hunted Krayts and bought duplicates of the same pieces of armor trying to get the Smugglers to give us an encumbrance slice. Some people even went Smuggler/Armorsmith to take advantage of this situation and became rich.
(Oh I forgot don't mention taking two classes makes money lol, j/k)
You didn't NEED them then, and you don't now. Again with the Opinions
We do not exist to buff you, we exist to entertain you. I know Buff Bots exist to Buff me, you should have no problem with them,with this attitude.
Stop confusing our roles. I don't. I want Buff Bots to remain So I can get Buffed on demand.
We do not exist to be told when to buff. Yeah, yeah, andChefs don'tcook and Architechs don't build.
And in fact, if someone told me that I HAD to buff them, I wouldn't. Good neither would I. I run into this kind of thing alot with the N00b Jedi "Don't kill me you grieffer"
A self-righteous attitude like that is not welcome here. It shouldn't be.
Finally.. instead of telling me if what I say is "fact" or "opinion", try giving me a real reason why buff-bots are ok (other than, of course, you cookie cutter response: there aren't enough of you, which you base on your theory that we exist to buff). This is a dishonestrequest. I have given you the best reason. "There is not enough entertainers of suitable level" If you are trying to get me to start arguing along some other line. I can't comply. I don't really think there is a good reason.
But how about this...
Someguy says: "Hey I run a Buff Bot! Two in fact. One BuffsDancer and one Buffs Musician. I have them in a merchant tent out side of Theed. I make about 100k a day. Yet these fool entetainers are trying to run me out of business."
Argue with this guy if you like, I don't support him. SO you see for me there is only one reason for Buff Bots. Not enough entertainers.
Beery wrote:
"It is fun in short spurts even for me. However you must admitthe profession is not a real popular one. "
What earthly difference does that make? It's like saying Picture Framer isn't a popular profession so picture framers should accept sweatshop wages. I mean it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
