Merchant Archive
Thread: Give me a single good reason why non-merchants SHOULD be able to use a vendor?
DragonScout wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
Just because I said I would, and because it amused me, I found out what kind of damage I can do with a non-certed weapon.
It took me 3 minute to kill a kreetle using a 4.3s 754 damage LLC. Another kreetle took another 3 minutes to kill using a 4.7s 844 damage flame thrower.
So as I said, if non-merchants want a vendor that 75% of the time takes the money from the customer, throws it away and never gives it to you, and destroys the item on the vendor leaving your customer empty handed, then by all means, have at it.
Oh yes.. Because that is so logically comparable.
BoberFett wrote:
Just because I said I would, and because it amused me, I found out what kind of damage I can do with a non-certed weapon.
It took me 3 minute to kill a kreetle using a 4.3s 754 damage LLC. Another kreetle took another 3 minutes to kill using a 4.7s 844 damage flame thrower.
So as I said, if non-merchants want a vendor that 75% of the time takes the money from the customer, throws it away and never gives it to you, and destroys the item on the vendor leaving your customer empty handed, then by all means, have at it.
Duckfat wrote:
Anyway I give valid examples of how the devs have implemented functionality in the past as a measuring stick for these non-merchant/artisan vendors and all the merchants that love to argue do is use arguements that are completely off base in attempt to legitimize their point of view or resort to arguements that are based on emotion and not facts.
What valid examples? The only examples I always see the whiners using are the "you can use a weapon without a cert" argument and a purely semantic argument that the skill says "Place" and not "Use". There's nothing factual about what you or anybody else has presented to defend poached vendors.
Lets take Boberfett as my first example. Bober you do realize that when you say that all opinions are arseholes that it also includes your opinions as well. I guess you failed to realize that when you decided to state your opinion in an attempt to flame those that are argueing against you. In contrast I believe the complete opposite. I believe that people have a right to fight for their opinions. I just wish that more people would back their opinions with something of merit instead of just flaming other opinions.
You're quite right, my opinions are worth no more than anybody else here. However I'm not the one trying to act like I have a monopoly on the truth about video game economies like our boy Wire3k here. As far as he's concerned, everybody who disagrees with him is a "myopic fool". Unfortunately for him, the devs disagree with him as well.
You say you believe people should fight for their opinions. Then why do you wish everyone who disagrees with you would shut up? What are you afraid of? Quite hypocritical. You'll make an excellent politician.
Speaking of backing your opinions lets look at Trystians arguements. If you read my post on page two of this thread giving two examples of why non-merchants should be able to use a vendor as asked by the thread starter, I stated two reasons and backed them with relevant data. Trystian on the other hand chooses to try to argue against it by offering a non-merchant/artisan vendor that holds 1 item for 2k for 1 hour. How is this in any way equivalent? Trystian himself stated that the difference between a certed user and a noncerted user could be around 1 shot for the certed user to 200 shots for the uncerted user. Well if you take that ratio to the non-merchant/artisan vendor that would equate to a 20 item vendor (based on the new cap of 4k) and not a 1 item vendor. And since the price cap and the duration of the sale do not change no matter what level of merchant you have it, it is obviously not skill based and should not be any different for a non-merchant/artisan vendor. You see how it is done with logical data and not just trying to make your arguement look better with unrealistic comparisons. Try it sometime when making your arguements. It usually works better. Then again there are those that could care less about logic and just like to exaggerate things to their benefit.
Your logic is wrong here. 4000 items is at master. At first certification, you get 100 items.
So as I proved earlier, it took me 3 minutes to kill a kreetle with a non-certed weapon compared to the 5 seconds it would take for a certed BH or Commando to kill a kreetle, that's a 36x increase from non-certed to basic cert.
A non-certed vendor should hold 5 items. If you wanted to give everybody a 5 item vendor for free in their declared residence, I'd support that.
Edit: Corrected some faulty math.
Message Edited by BoberFett on 08-24-2004 10:11 PM
BoberFett wrote:
Congratulations, you're a bona fide nerd.
Ummm, that would be Geek Goddess - thank you very much, but I digress.
Duckfat wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
Just because I said I would, and because it amused me, I found out what kind of damage I can do with a non-certed weapon.
It took me 3 minute to kill a kreetle using a 4.3s 754 damage LLC. Another kreetle took another 3 minutes to kill using a 4.7s 844 damage flame thrower.
So as I said, if non-merchants want a vendor that 75% of the time takes the money from the customer, throws it away and never gives it to you, and destroys the item on the vendor leaving your customer empty handed, then by all means, have at it.
You see what I mean. Merchants like Boberfett here love to take the worse case scenarios to use. Why dont you try something with better speed mods and a lower accuracy penalty. After all you can use ANY weapon. I am surprised you didnt complain about the damage modifier you take for the weapons you chose. Wait a minute did I just mention that you can CHOOSE to use ANY weapon while the merchants are trying to make it so that the only option for everyone that does not have business 3 is the bazaar. Where is the choice there? Oh wait I forgot that we can also choose to hire a merchant but then again a merchant can hire a rifleman as well and can still CHOOSE to use ANY weapon. But that is beside the point and just me being hard headed isnt it. Lets just keep to the examples that make it look like the merchants are right and non-certed weapons are completely useless.
Message Edited by BoberFett on 08-24-2004 09:58 PM
MaDuece wrote:
OMG! This is pathetic! You declare yourself an expert on people's behavior and economics from playing a game?!?! ROFLMAO!
No, I never claimed to be an expert - nor a psychologist or economics major in general. INSIDE MMOs however player behavior and economics are very pure and much easier to study cause and effect. There are individual dymanics, motivational dynamics and group dynamics - quite fascinating really if you go in for that sort of thing.
Those are the very things that you can't study anywhere ELSE but from the inside. What's planned on paper may look great, but ultimately it's up to the players to decide if they work or not. If player's reject your theory - the presumptive cause and effect goes out the window and it can backfire in your face in all sorts of messy ways.
That is what you said. That is not comparable at all. It has no reference to any part of the discussion. We are talking about two items. A flamethrower and a vendor. If, going by the logic that you can use a flamethrower without a cert and the only thing that happens is a lower damage level, then explain exactly how that equates to the above paragraph.
Anyways. I don't think a vendor that sells 50 items is giving away the farm. Especially if a non-merchant vendor took a structure Lot to use. But that is just me. I am not the one screaming it is the end of the world if non-merchants got one limited vendor.
Wire3k wrote:
No, I never claimed to be an expert - nor a psychologist or economics major in general.
Hey YOU were the one that started throwing credentials around.
INSIDE MMOs however player behavior and economics are very pure and much easier to study cause and effect. There are individual dymanics, motivational dynamics and group dynamics - quite fascinating really if you go in for that sort of thing.
ROFLMAO! The game is populated by predominately males between the ages of 15 and 35. They are either kids or kids at heart. Kids will do whatever they can to push the envelope when it comes to rules. Once the rules are tightened down on them they piss and moan and throw fits. Once an exploit door is slammed shut they just simply move on to the next exploit. Why do you think websites that post known exploits get so many hits?
You predictions of doom and gloom over a vendor issue makes no sense considering the player base in question. Economies rise and fall within the boundaries of a game system according to needs and wants, not limitationsof a means to buy or sell. There are MMOs out there that have no means of purchasing and selling even close to the SWG system and they are still going strong.
Geez! You can buy piles of dung for EQ off of Ebay for Pete's sake!
This game definitely has some serious problems. People may definitely quit. BUT I'm willing to bet you that they won't do it in the masss numbers that you predict because they can't have a vendor. Most of the demographic listed above only want their fix of video violence. When that gets stale orbetter options come alongTHEN they leave in droves.
DragonScout wrote:
That is what you said. That is not comparable at all. It has no reference to any part of the discussion. We are talking about two items. A flamethrower and a vendor. If, going by the logic that you can use a flamethrower without a cert and the only thing that happens is a lower damage level, then explain exactly how that equates to the above paragraph.
Its called the Bazaar. Ever seen it?
LonelyGhost wrote:
I bet if we can present our correspondant with a clear and effective tweak to the skills of the Merchant that will help to relieve the inadequecies, the Devs just might do it for us. Commission sales maybe? A "real" stockroom we can use to store hundreds of crates of goods we buy from a crafter (only crates, not resources or singles)?
My problem with this mess is the order it's being done in.
href="http://www.swgbio.com/merch.html">www.swgbio.com/merch.html
That was MY response - directly to SOE months ago of what I thought needed to be done to justify merchant as a class the first time this subject really reared it's ugly head. Everyone seems to be forgetting - this change has very little to do with anything WE need, it's what THEY need to accomodate a DB that is insufficient to support the need their own systems as designed created. What happens next year - if the game actually makes it thru and people adjust? What gets cut next? Anyone remember house limits being temporary?
MaDuece wrote:
Wire3k wrote:
ROFLMAO! The game is populated by predominately males between the ages of 15 and 35.
Well, this is incorrect - but you probably won't believe that either, most likely because you fall inside this demographic and can't imagine anyone other than those like yourself having any desire to 'game'. I am neither male, nor do I fall inside this age bracket, not by a longshot. If you mean predominately by 50% or more - maybe, but I'll wager the percentage of female players is far higher than you suspect. 30% is conservative - with 40-45% likely being closer to the mark. Female players also tend to be a shade older than their male counterparts.
Believe it or not - females DO play games, and MMOs are a particularly attractive genre for them due to their basically intrinsic social nature. Pick up any industry or gaming magazine going back a year or so - you are likely to see articles puzzling how to attract more female gamers into the market. MMOs are a natural - and they do come, if they aren't driven away.
Females are also likely to find crafter/merchant an attractive playstyle as it allows expression of creativity, building/creation over destruction, nurturing activity and social contact. These are by no means female only motivations, but they do rate far higher on the average female gamer's list of priorities than on the average male's.
You predictions of doom and gloom over a vendor issue makes no sense considering the player base in question.
Within your assumptions, you are likely correct - how about within mine?