Merchant Archive
Thread: Give me a single good reason why non-merchants SHOULD be able to use a vendor?
TxRoadDawg wrote:
CowboyBothan wrote:
Lets call Apples Apples, you want something for free, fine I can understand that.
And merchants dont? What DOES a merchant contribute as a profession seriously BUT dropping and stocking vendors. Serious answer please, what EXACTLY do merchants contribute beyond dropping a vendor, Ive got the master merchant badge and made alot of credits getting it along the way,I also managed to finish master in 3 weeks never and i do mean NEVER spamming or other garbage for xp like paying people to pay access fees and refresh vendors and all the othertactics ive seen holo grinders use to get it done and over with. I didnt care about or miss anything to do with merchant dropping it because there was nothing to really miss for all the time to get it.
i DONT care what the dev's intended for it either, merchants just one of many things theyscrewed the pooch on. can we say holo grinding, pvp, the gcw, holocrons themselves, afk spawn and loot campers, useless town militia, and general lack of new meaningful contentect ect. The simple fact remain that the ONLY thing merchant contributes is vendors.
The discount effienciency mean NOTHING when i can have 20-30k a day worth of resources at grind prices from each harv for 90 cu/75 powerand ive had 50 down before at one time before, same for vendor cost and ad costs, whats 50% off 50 cu an hour matter if your making 200-400k resource sales all day long. Planetary advertising gave you a name location and lump class for the world map but unless you already named your vendors like1k a crate power-ups and 2cpu resources what advertising are you getting, its not like aclick boxpopped up saying view advertisement that you could add to like a real ad you could change to run daily specials with. if ANY advertising worked teh starport s wouldnt be flooded with spammers and ya woulda never needed barker droids. As for hiring i wont even get into how useless i saw it as when i could random up a vendor withing 5 tries i was generally happy with seeing.
i swear im really not looking for a flame war so i and going to TRY and make some constructive suggestions for what merchant should have really been. you guys wanna distribute fine, lets see a REAL bulk distribution system, Give a merchant a warehouse driod or something we can DIRECTLY transfer goods to, no more having to make 3-4 trips to a vendor to offer a 100 crate run of powerups, especially going to off world vendors, let a merchant have a screen to automatically call up all his property so you dont have to go out everyday to tend each harv and factory you own. do it all from one drop down menu at once. lets make private vendors searchable planetwide as an option to teh bazaar screen for advertising3, give ad4 a click to see specials addon you can use when someone clicks your vendor waypoint on the world map, even if its just 35 characters ya can fit 96%swoops 20kStimC 1200 a crateof some otehr quick daily special into that and have real advertising. how much of an ad is joebobs armor on the world map as things stand now. prolly teh easiest perk would be make merchant tents a freebie for you guys to plant provided you kept one merchant stocked in it at all times, otherwise the tent now is just a glorified one lot round sm naboo house.
you guys have went on and on for months about how fair it is we got to keep our vendors after we dropped them now ill ask you by what right does a mere 71 sp for master merchant give you guys the right to to have final say on the vast majority of retail pricing in the economy. when resources back last year RARELY sold over 10 cpu and 20 cpu at the most and now every dam in coronet passing through someone else is spamming things for 60-80 or even 100 cpu for AVERAGE stats does the econmy really NEED another level of inflation your markups will add.
its a real shame the vast majority here seemed to be so short sighted as to scream for the holy grail nerf bat to slam all us mom and pop sized vendor operators when what you should have begged the devs for was more content abilities and incentives to actullykeep the merchant skills and make merchant more then just a gloried vendor stocker.
Wire3k wrote:
BoberFett wrote:
So what are you? A tailor? Tailors don't provide anything useful to the game. Clothes never wear out, and you can loot different ones. What good do tailors provide to the game?
I think we should just get rid of you. After all, you're just a sheep who'll play whatever crappy profession the devs give you.
If you really want to see what I do - visit my website, I'm also a bioengineer - and my customers and bankaccount would tend to disagree with your estimation of my worth.
It's a niche, one I've happily filled till lately. Freedom to chose among playstyles is one of the few things SWG did right - and although I think merchant as a class was a poor decision, it's worked till now only cause it DIDN'T work that way. Squeeze people out of options and goals - you squeeze them clean out of the game.
The problem is, with that reasoning I can say the same with merchant. I have never been a "true" crafting profession (I'm a master smuggler) and I have a very nice bank account. My playstyle has been to provide a service for crafters, and buyers alike.
BoberFett wrote:
I'm not sure why you think your opinion is better than anybody elses, but you seem to have some kind of severe complex.
Better? Not really - informed about what motivates crafters and the economic backend of a MMO - yes, I've had highly successful shops for the last 10 years under different economic models - I've been successful in ALL of them, that's what I do - that's what I enjoy. These have also been a hobby of mine in the study of players - what they do, and perhaps more importantly WHY they want to do it.
SWG was the firstMMO to really grasp the need of goods as a driving force behind the economy, and I wanted to see it work - I REALLY REALLY wanted to see it work because I've thought that was a large part missing in other models.
What has allowed it to work up till now is a relatively free economic model. Goods can flow free - not bottlenecked anywhere. In a system with player need as a base - that works just fine and selfadjusts. Over the last few months they have been chipping away at that concept with loot - but some of that is ok, it's a fine balance and hunters need some rewards as well. Components as loot is probably the best compromise between that tug of war in playstyles - long as it's not overdone - and they've done that to some degree too.
Merchant as a class produces NOTHING. There is a crafter/merchant playstyle that actually enjoys playing accountant - there is a crafter/merchant playstyle that enjoys JUST manufacturing - either for direct monetary or goods compensation. Those two TOGETHER are tiny compared to the crafter whose purpose to exist derives from satisfaction of seeing appreciation for their goods - which does not happen until those goods are delivered into the hands of the people that use them.
The first two can exist happily alongside the third. The third cannot exist happily if they are forced into the paradigm of the first two.
Codifying merchant into a class is worthless as a concept. Merchants don't NEED a class - merchant is playerskill. Having a class doesn't make someone a merchant either - you cannot write playerskill into code, nor do I happen to think it's worthy of manhours to try. Merchant, IF it's a class, should be about tools, and yes, vendors are tools - but to justify an entire elite class it's such a tiny part of the tools that are needed it's laughable to try to justify the existance of a profession based on it.
So, back to the problem. You are expecting people to continue to play - or continue to pursue professions once you've removed their very reason for playing. That's presuming they don't buy a second account - at which time, what good does it do YOU? SOE may get more accounts (although I believe they will lose more singles at this point than they pick up multiples) but YOU aren't going to have any more suppliers - and indeed probably fewer customers.
Believe me - don't believe, I'm tired and don't really care anymore. This won't be the first instance I've seen of myopic fools that can't see a forrest fire coming right at them because THEIR tree wasn't on fire - yet. My complex as you like to call it is simply self confidence in my own working knowledge built up over years of study - and your qualifications are?
DragonScout wrote:
As far as the cert thing goes.. you guys are trying to compare things too literally. You do not get any 'better' at using vendors as you gain exp in merchant. So, now with the item limits in place, we can use those as differing levels of 'certs'. So if you look at it that way.. a non-cert'd vendor would be able to sell around what.. 50 items? To truly become effective... to sell more items.. and get the oh so wonderful tools that you get from the merchant profession.. you can spend more skill points.
And that is nice that you think that stocking vendors makes a profession. I don't. I don't consider stocking a vendor, and then ignoring it until it needs to be stocked again playing a profession. If I can go to sleep and still be playing just as effectively as if I was logged in, that is not a profession.
I can PLAY the game as JUST a rifleman or as JUST a bio-engineer.. or as JUST a tailor. You cannot play the game as JUST a merchant. Hell, it would take forever to just grind to novice, and you wouldn't even be using merchant skills to do the grinding. That is NOT a viable, stand-alone profession. Not to mention that EVERYTHING you do as your precious merchant profession beyond stocking your vendors has absolutely no support from the skill point sinkhole you call a profession.
Ok, your making no sense now. So crafters aren't a profession either then? I mean most crafters I know create their schematic load it into a factory and go to bed for the night? clicking a couple buttons and loading a factory is pretty much all crafters do, you call that a valid profession?
I successfully played the game as "Just a merchant" for about 4-5 months, grinding to novice didn't really take me that long, I placed a shop by Coronet, and sold things people were interested in (powerups). after I made novice I worked out a contract with a very reputable WS, and sold weapons for him. At that point I started buing food from another crafter. Eventually I was selling things on 4 different vendors with never having become a crafting profession. No your right it's not valid 
Wire3k wrote:
Better? Not really - informed about what motivates crafters and the economic backend of a MMO - yes, I've had highly successful shops for the last 10 years under different economic models - I've been successful in ALL of them, that's what I do - that's what I enjoy. These have also been a hobby of mine in the study of players - what they do, and perhaps more importantly WHY they want to do it.
Congratulations, you're a bona fide nerd. That's all 10 years fo game playing gets you. Your experience gives you no more credibility in designing games than driving a car makes you a mechanicalengineer.
SWG was the firstMMO to really grasp the need of goods as a driving force behind the economy, and I wanted to see it work - I REALLY REALLY wanted to see it work because I've thought that was a large part missing in other models.
And it will work, even better than before. Players will now be confident that their time spent shopping around to different vendors is worthwhile, because they know they'll be visiting real merchants who stock their shops. Previously, a vendor simply cost 15 credits per hour. That's nothing, so there was no motivation to keep them stocked. Now, not only are there monetary costs but there are skill point costs. If someone gets a dedicated account to create a merchant, then there are real life costs of $15/mo. This means that moving forward, people will only have vendors if they keep them stocked. This is good for the economy.
Why you may ask? Because just last night I needed master artisan components. After searching the galaxy for a couple hours and finding empty or mislabeled vendors, I gave up and got master artisan back. Rather than purchasing my goods from another player, I made them myself. How's that for a great economy?
What has allowed it to work up till now is a relatively free economic model. Goods can flow free - not bottlenecked anywhere. In a system with player need as a base - that works just fine and selfadjusts. Over the last few months they have been chipping away at that concept with loot - but some of that is ok, it's a fine balance and hunters need some rewards as well. Components as loot is probably the best compromise between that tug of war in playstyles - long as it's not overdone - and they've done that to some degree too.
Goods will still flow freely. People can sell their wares at starports or on the planetary auction channel. But as in real life, unless you invest in the capital (skill poitns)to put up a storefront, you're relegated to the classified ads (the trade forums and bazaar).
Merchant as a class produces NOTHING. There is a crafter/merchant playstyle that actually enjoys playing accountant - there is a crafter/merchant playstyle that enjoys JUST manufacturing - either for direct monetary or goods compensation. Those two TOGETHER are tiny compared to the crafter whose purpose to exist derives from satisfaction of seeing appreciation for their goods - which does not happen until those goods are delivered into the hands of the people that use them.
Except for overpriced loot, of which the introduction has actually been a burden on crafters, combat characters don't produce anything either. Why do they need vendors?
The first two can exist happily alongside the third. The third cannot exist happily if they are forced into the paradigm of the first two.
Codifying merchant into a class is worthless as a concept. Merchants don't NEED a class - merchant is playerskill. Having a class doesn't make someone a merchant either - you cannot write playerskill into code, nor do I happen to think it's worthy of manhours to try. Merchant, IF it's a class, should be about tools, and yes, vendors are tools - but to justify an entire elite class it's such a tiny part of the tools that are needed it's laughable to try to justify the existance of a profession based on it.
I guess that'll remain to be seen. You certainly don't have a monopoly on the truth, despite your overinflated sense of self worth.
So, back to the problem. You are expecting people to continue to play - or continue to pursue professions once you've removed their very reason for playing. That's presuming they don't buy a second account - at which time, what good does it do YOU? SOE may get more accounts (although I believe they will lose more singles at this point than they pick up multiples) but YOU aren't going to have any more suppliers - and indeed probably fewer customers.
I don't expect people to do anything. They can play the game or they can quit, it makes no difference to me. The proportion of crafters and combat characters to quit over this change will be roughly the same, so my marketshare won't change, I'm not worried about losing customers. And my suppliers will increase. I will be more likely to find a well stocked vendor in the new system, where having a vendor incurs a greater cost than 15 credits per hour.
Believe me - don't believe, I'm tired and don't really care anymore. This won't be the first instance I've seen of myopic fools that can't see a forrest fire coming right at them because THEIR tree wasn't on fire - yet. My complex as you like to call it is simply self confidence in my own working knowledge built up over years of study - and your qualifications are?
Aside from the fact that the removal of empty vendors from the planetary map is a completely separate issue from poached vendors.. You are assuming that now everyone who is a merchant is going to be fully devoted to stocking their vendors all the time.
I would bet that a good 50% or so of the empty vendors on the planetary map are from old legit merchants who have left the game. Of the rest... most are probably people with lives who can't stock consistently... and I am sure some are left overs from hologrinders... who probably forgot about them.
Most poached vendors are used and stocked. Because otherwise.. what is the point in having an empty vendor that is costing you money?
Anyways.. thank you for the laugh.
oh.. and if you want to check my background.. I worked for westwood studios for a year as a game tester.. and then two years for simutronics as a game designer (development and code). Not that it has any relevance to this discussion.
And my personal opinion on 10 years worth of play is that he does have a strong foundation of experience to look at, and the past can definitely show you what might happen in the future. Not saying it makes everything he says completely legit and right.. but it at least has a more solid foundation for logic and reasoning than calling someone a nerd as your argument.
Wire3k wrote:
Dragon - I think we are wasting our breath.
For folks like bobba to admit merchant isn't worthy of being a class means they have to admit it was only stuck in as a skillsink and was never intended to be anything more than that - and that it's worked fine so far by NOT working just proves that point.
My 7 page letter - sent in MONTHS ago, was also to make it worthy of being a class - and strongly urging that that be done, and STILL leave folks alone that had earned the skill to keep basic vendor functionality. They didn't hurt me having vendors, but taking them away from those people will hurt them, it will hurt the game, and therefore - it will hurt me. Presuming the whole thing doesn't implode, goods will be more expensive (after the glut is over where you can't give stuff away), harder to find - and people will resort more and more to guildmules instead of a truly free economy.
It's a pity the experiment failed - they came pretty close to pulling it off.
Heh Wire welcome to my world. I try to explain things to merchants and they all claim that I just want something for nothing even though I have made it pretty obvious that I have the skills and will keep my vendors. I am fighting for those thatwill not keep their vendors to get a simple non-merchant/artisan vendor. This proposed vendor is not enough for me and that is why I keep the skills for my two vendors. Anyway I give valid examples of how the devs have implemented functionality in the past as a measuring stick for these non-merchant/artisan vendors and all the merchants that love to argue do is use arguements that are completely off base in attempt to legitimize their point of view or resort to arguements that are based on emotion and not facts.
Lets take Boberfett as my first example. Bober you do realize that when you say that all opinions are arseholes that it also includes your opinions as well. I guess you failed to realize that when you decided to state your opinion in an attempt to flame those that are argueing against you. In contrast I believe the complete opposite. I believe that people have a right to fight for their opinions. I just wish that more people would back their opinions with something of merit instead of just flaming other opinions.
Speaking of backing your opinions lets look at Trystians arguements. If you read my post on page two of this thread giving two examples of why non-merchants should be able to use a vendor as asked by the thread starter, I stated two reasons and backed them with relevant data. Trystian on the other hand chooses to try to argue against it by offering a non-merchant/artisan vendor that holds 1 item for 2k for 1 hour. How is this in any way equivalent? Trystian himself stated that the difference between a certed user and a noncerted user could be around 1 shot for the certed user to 200 shots for the uncerted user. Well if you take that ratio to the non-merchant/artisan vendor that would equate to a 20 item vendor (based on the new cap of 4k) and not a 1 item vendor. And since the price cap and the duration of the sale do not change no matter what level of merchant you have it, it is obviously not skill based and should not be any different for a non-merchant/artisan vendor. You see how it is done with logical data and not just trying to make your arguement look better with unrealistic comparisons. Try it sometime when making your arguements. It usually works better. Then again there are those that could care less about logic and just like to exaggerate things to their benefit.
Wire3k wrote:
Better? Not really - informed about what motivates crafters and the economic backend of a MMO - yes, I've had highly successful shops for the last 10 years under different economic models - I've been successful in ALL of them, that's what I do - that's what I enjoy. These have also been a hobby of mine in the study of players - what they do, and perhaps more importantly WHY they want to do it.
Just because you sit in a garage doesn't make you a car.
Merchant as a class produces NOTHING.
The guy that mows your lawn doesn't "produce" anything but exhaust fumes from his mower. What he does provide is a SERVICE.
Merchant as a class can POTENTIALLY provide a service. With the upcoming changes that service will be more valuable than ever.
My complex as you like to call it is simply self confidence in my own working knowledge built up over years of study - and your qualifications are?
OMG! This is pathetic! You declare yourself an expert on people's behavior and economics from playing a game?!?! ROFLMAO!
BoberFett wrote:Just because I said I would, and because it amused me, I found out what kind of damage I can do with a non-certed weapon.It took me 3 minute to kill a kreetle using a 4.3s 754 damage LLC. Another kreetle took another 3 minutes to kill using a 4.7s 844 damage flame thrower.So as I said, if non-merchants want a vendor that 75% of the time takes the money from the customer, throws it away and never gives it to you, and destroys the item on the vendor leaving your customer empty handed, then by all means, have at it.
Oh yes.. Because that is so logically comparable.
DragonScout wrote:
LOL. Oh yeah.. and allllll those empty vendors are from poached vendors. That is funny.
Do you have stats to say otherwise? Unless you've got direct access to the database, your info is no more valid than mine.
Aside from the fact that the removal of empty vendors from the planetary map is a completely separate issue from poached vendors.. You are assuming that now everyone who is a merchant is going to be fully devoted to stocking their vendors all the time.
Yes, they will be. Since the cost of vendors is now skill points on their main character or another $15/mo account, I'd say you're less likely to find an out of stock vendor. That's just speculation on my part, but I guess we'll find out over the next month or two.
I would bet that a good 50% or so of the empty vendors on the planetary map are from old legit merchants who have left the game. Of the rest... most are probably people with lives who can't stock consistently... and I am sure some are left overs from hologrinders... who probably forgot about them.
OK, so what you've got are empty vendors run by people not playing, people who don't play enough to worry about their vendors, and hologrinders. I'm confused, are these the people for whom you're defending their rights to own vendors? Not exactly people I'd really be too concerned about myself.
Most poached vendors are used and stocked. Because otherwise.. what is the point in having an empty vendor that is costing you money?
15 credits per hour is costing you money? A vendor costs ~10,800 to run per month. Considering the hyperinflated economies of most servers, that's nothing for the convenience of using in the rare isntance that a person does have something for sale.
Anyways.. thank you for the laugh.
Glad I can amuse you. Lord knows the whiners around here like you complaining that the world is coming to and end have provided me plenty of entertainment. It's the least I can do.
oh.. and if you want to check my background.. I worked for westwood studios for a year as a game tester.. and then two years for simutronics as a game designer (development and code). Not that it has any relevance to this discussion.
That's cool, I'd love to work for a gaming company, but I'm a much better business system designer than I am a game designer.
And my personal opinion on 10 years worth of play is that he does have a strong foundation of experience to look at, and the past can definitely show you what might happen in the future. Not saying it makes everything he says completely legit and right.. but it at least has a more solid foundation for logic and reasoning than calling someone a nerd as your argument.
