Merchant Archive
Thread: Vendor Poaching -- What is a VIABLE Solution?
DingoBoi wrote:
the part where you conclude from that, that it was an unintended feature. It was an exploitable bug.
Oh, I see now. Yup, it was an exploitable bug. And the devs ended up deciding that it was beneficial to the game, so they turned it into a bona fide feature. (This is evident to anyone who has made a manufacturing schematic recently... it goes up to 1000.)
This, to my mind, disproves the notion that exploitable bugs are of necessity detrimental to the game.
p4Samwise wrote:
DingoBoi wrote:
the part where you conclude from that, that it was an unintended feature. It was an exploitable bug.
Oh, I see now. Yup, it was an exploitable bug. And the devs ended up deciding that it was beneficial to the game, so they turned it into a bona fide feature. (This is evident to anyone who has made a manufacturing schematic recently... it goes up to 1000.)
This, to my mind, disproves the notion that exploitable bugs are of necessity detrimental to the game.
And you are a fool to believe that. ALL exploits are detrimental to the game, because that 'bug' was hurting legitimate crafters who weren't taking advantage of it.
when the dev's called it even and fixed it, then it became even... everybody had honest and fair access to it.. not cheating access. Exploits are always detrimental to the game.
Only if people are all on the same playing field is it even. You are a fool not to see that.
This is no different than a 'petition' to increase a skill because the players would like it. How many times have we asked for stacks to be increased beyond 100k? Just because an exploit enabled it does not make it legitimate.
Message Edited by DingoBoi on 07-03-2004 12:41 AM
Was exploitingthat one bad for the game too?The bugs that hurt the game overall, those that take advantage of actual errors in the code, are usually classified as 'exploits' and are bannable offenses. Double slices and duplicating credits fall into this category.
System design failures that don't account for the ingenuity of players are not necessarily 'bad' at all, yet could, by a text book definition, still be considered 'exploits' but are rarely called as such in the educated gaming world, unless they negatively impact the gaming enviroment. Things that fall into this category are buffs, poison, disease, armor, weapons, vendors, maintenance reduction on items other than ones you own, schematic limits, etc. These are things that while unintended, are part of the gaming world. They are not anything that is truly 'bad'.. they are just unintended features. And because of that, they might be things the DEVs decide they want to change, or might be things the DEVs decide they like and keep.
It is obvious from what has been said by TH and others in the know, that vendor poaching is something they decided they wanted to fix. Nice. Big deal. Does that make people who do it in the mean time are evil bad and nasty individuals? No. They are just playing the game as it currently is.
And I challenge you, balkstar, to be civil for a month. I get urges to flame you and dingoboi and others, but I have control over my baser impulses because I am a human being and not an animal slave only to my reactions and emotions. Perhaps if you stepped back from this argument you would be able to discuss it without the emotion that causes you to do things like "/sarcastic tones, or /laugh hystarically" I mean that is just mature discussion if I have ever seen it.
Also, who is to say what the original impression or idea was for the merchant profession? They might have just ran out of time -- that is what it appears like to me. And what makes your opinion any more 'right' than mine? It is nice that you want merchant to only be about vendors. I would personally like more, and I have the right to post my opinions and ideas without people flaming and bashing. If you would like to contribute to the discussion, and offer constructive criticism, to insure that vendors are not completely pushed to the side, perhaps you should actually learn to participate in a discussion instead of just flaming.
And dingoboi, P4samwise specifically pointed out an example where in this game, SWG, the DEVs directly disagree with you. Their actions clearly show that not ALL unintended features are bad. This isn't like a forum admin saying something is an 'exploit of sorts' versus a DEV saying something is an 'exploit'. You can't interpret this to your own bias. It is pretty straight forward. There was a bug people found and used, and the DEVs decided they liked it, so changed it to be a feature instead of a bug. Plain. Easy. No need to think over it.
Message Edited by DragonScout on 07-02-2004 08:20 PM
Balkstar wrote:
Sorry I could keep a straight face. The idea that exploiting the game in any capacity can be good for the game is truely laughable.
Actually, the majority were in agreement that the 1000-use schematic exploit was good for the game. Which is why it became a feature at the last second instead of being fixed, as was planned.
(For those of you too young to remember: manufacturing schematics used to have a slider that went to 100 items, and were intended to be capped at that number, but you could type 1000 into the box and it'd accept it. This was obviously not intended behavior, and the devs were going to fix it, but ultimately decided, after a lot of pressure from crafters,that it'd be better to make 1000 the bona fide limit - hence, they upgraded1000-use schematicsfrom "exploit" to "feature", changing the slider to go to 1000. This is, of course, the exception rather than the rule, but it's not laughable to suggest that exploits are not inherently bad for a game.)
The original question was asking for a viable way to be a Good BE, and have a vendor -- which isn't asking that much since all the other major crafting professions can get one fairly easy.
Your first post just attacked and insulted him and offered solutions that weren't even close to viable. And it was extremely obvious you didn't know what you were talking about.
DragonScout wrote:
What exactly is your point and how does it pertain to the discussion at hand? If you don't like BEs, the place to post about that would be the BE profession's forum.
The original question was asking for a viable way to be a Good BE, and have a vendor -- which isn't asking that much since all the other major crafting professions can get one fairly easy.
Your first post just attacked and insulted him and offered solutions that weren't even close to viable. And it was extremely obvious you didn't know what you were talking about.
Please explain why they are not viable...Are you a hermit that lives under a rock and can be friends with others?
"The original question was asking for a viable way to be a Good BE, and have a vendor" Well I explained that..GET SOME FRIENDS WITH COMBAT SKILLS! Have that friend go with you..if the creature aggros then you have your friend to help. Having this friend means you wont need combat skill leaving you points for merchant.
Why did I attack the BE prof here? Because BE are the only ones whining, Docs need vendors too and they're not here crying about it. I could describe how almost any prof is not needed.
And now I'm putting you on my ignore list as your highly annoying.
DragonScout wrote:
What exactly is your point and how does it pertain to the discussion at hand? If you don't like BEs, the place to post about that would be the BE profession's forum.
The original question was asking for a viable way to be a Good BE, and have a vendor -- which isn't asking that much since all the other major crafting professions can get one fairly easy.
Your first post just attacked and insulted him and offered solutions that weren't even close to viable. And it was extremely obvious you didn't know what you were talking about.
BountyBlunter wrote:Hmm.. I said this in another thread I think.. To another BE..Novice Artisan up to Buisness III for a vendor. - 226/250sp remaining.Novice Scout up to Hunting IV to stem to BE and Exploration II for mask scent. - 192/250sp remaining.Medic Organic Chemistry IV to stem to BE - 163/250sp remaining.Master Bio Engineer - 100/250sp remaining.So, lets examine the options from here on in with the one hundred measly skill points you have left after gaining master bio-engineer, your stems (with mask scent) and your 'coke machine' vendor.Basic Professions.- Master Any Basic Profession, with mixed sp left over to dabble depending on your choice.OR !Elite Professions.- Master Teras Kasi.- Master Fencer.- Master Swordsman.- Master Pikeman.- Master Rifleman.- Master Pistoleer.- Master Carbineer.(any of which leave 8sp)From what I can see here, your options are not limited as you say and I didn't bother to spend the time to put together all your options..What's this skill point problem you have again ?
I actually thought what I wrote on page 1 of this now 5 page thread was a valid question which didn't get an answer. Only a simple slap in the face saying "I've never been a BE".. It is possible to get Master BE with a Mastery in an elite combat profession and a 'coke' vendor AND throw a few SP here and there to boost the template I suggested which was so obviously but mysteriously 100% wrong.
One thing people seem to forget is that you can assume alot, but you rarely know who you are talking too.. With a TKM/MRanger character on Scylla I don't need to be preached at about masking and camo and how people here obviously know alot more about a skill I have held across not one but two professions and camo in ranger that people seem to forget about since say two weeks before my registration date.
I think the real problem is greed... Plain and simple.
If you don't have the points to spare, you don't get the goods.. So I might get an answer other than "You haven't been a BE" take the part where I said 8SP left over and put another level into scout exploration, then consider I'm asking the same question.. Also bear in mind you can only gain one more bonus to masking IF you choose not to have a vendor, you cant master scout.
No more sploity talk, just tell me why a BE can't spare the points.. I ran alot of different variations though a character builder and this system seemed to be the best if you want master BE, master elite combat and a Vendor.
Edited: For factual correctness.
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 07-03-2004 02:43 PM
=X Snip X=
Thought I would re-examine Maisland's topic.
The PROBLEM:
I have a BE on Eclipse. In order to be a GOOD BE, I cannot spare the skill points for Artisan, let alone Business 3/Merchant.
- Merchant isn't needed , a coke vendor would do the job.
The bazaar is not a viable option to sell the pets, tissues etc that I make as there is both a 25 item limit and a 6k price cap.
- The bazaar, for me at least, is a simple tool to allow inter-planetary commerce. It needs to be less functional than vendors or everyone would just use the bazaar.
Offering my products to a merchant's vendor is not a viable option as the 25 item limit on the bazaar includes offers to vendors.
- This is not a major problem, if you make an offer to a merchant's vendor it will more than likely have been a pre-arranged deal and your making a drop off, the main problem with this statement is that it directly conflicts with the fact that this BE does NOT use the bazaar anyway, it's only half an issue at best.
I know of no merchants that would purchase my items.
- Galaxy specific boards and trade forums (see below for additional comment), if the price is right and you can strike up a deal then it's all good. Complaing about not finding people without first using all the tools at your disposal is nothing short of lazy.
I have too many items to sell to just store them in my house.
- Storage issue, and having a vendor would reduce the issue. 10 lots, bank, droid, and backpack storage is what everyone get's at best this is a totally seperate issue. If it is an issue at all, as we all know the motto "If your running out of space, your storing too much"
At this time, I find that the only way that I can get my items on the market at the prices they are worth would be to pick up Artisan, get a vendor, then drop that profession in order to pick up the skills I need to be a good BE.
- Because instead of taking the problems, looking at them and trying to find a real viable solution, the easiest way out is usually the favourite.
So, as I see it, those who are against vendor "poaching" would rather I be a mediocre BE if I want to be able to sell my items and spend the points I need to be a good BE on Artisan/Merchant. There are several posts about how we BEs are supposed to sell our items on the BE forum.
- Personal opinion and an example of why people here get defensive on the topic. Also I doubt there are any posts telling you to sell BE wares on a BE forum, galaxy specific trade and galaxy forums are the ones to use. Although trade forums are going to be the best place to post unless you have a mjor announcement about your stores opening, a massive sale (cure your stock issues) or something like that.
The response to my thought out and prepared suggestion:
You have clearly NEVER played a BE.
- DragonScout, these are those attacks you love to talk about in full operation, opening statement was to slap me in the face.. It's not only merchants, so don't defend the people you are so clearly against.. Flamers. Should I go find that post where you said that, nar.
Exploration 2 for mask scent? Ever tried sneaking up on a Rancor with mask scent at that level? Even with Exploration 4, they detect you more often than not.
- I've got a master ranger character.. Camo and masking are usefull, very usefull.. But having level III as opposed to level IV when you solve your 'problem' completely by aquiring a vendor seems a fair compramise to me.
A BE needs a viable combat skill for when (notice I do not say "IF") the creatures that are being sampled go agro... or were you thinking I should stick to sampling Corellian Butterflies and making crappy pets?
- If sampling corellian butterflies is about all you can do with that skillset then perhaps I'm not the only BE noob about. See the part where I stated that any elite combat mastery could be attained, without a problem. In fact drop your master box and you even got the Exploration IV that is the holy grail it seems! Anyone say Enhancements, I know I've got a few on my master doc to push me up to +125 ..
The setup you are recommending would make for a mediocre BE at best... and a poor one at worst... unless the BE ONLY made stims and tissues. For myself, I want to make pets... and GOOD pets at that.
- Why ? And never got an answer, even when I reposted in the second flame fest about this very post.
=X SNIP X= : Added this just to make the post even longer, I think it needed more flavour. Dare you to quote me in full. 
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 07-03-2004 03:10 PM
BountyBlunter wrote:
DragonScout wrote:
What exactly is your point and how does it pertain to the discussion at hand? If you don't like BEs, the place to post about that would be the BE profession's forum.
The original question was asking for a viable way to be a Good BE, and have a vendor -- which isn't asking that much since all the other major crafting professions can get one fairly easy.
Your first post just attacked and insulted him and offered solutions that weren't even close to viable. And it was extremely obvious you didn't know what you were talking about.
BountyBlunter wrote:
Hmm.. I said this in another thread I think.. To another BE..
Novice Artisan up to Buisness III for a vendor. - 226/250sp remaining.
Novice Scout up to Hunting IV to stem to BE and Exploration II for mask scent. - 192/250sp remaining.
Medic Organic Chemistry IV to stem to BE - 163/250sp remaining.
Master Bio Engineer - 100/250sp remaining.
So, lets examine the options from here on in with the one hundred measly skill points you have left after gaining master bio-engineer, your stems (with mask scent) and your 'coke machine' vendor.
Basic Professions.
- Master Any Basic Profession, with mixed sp left over to dabble depending on your choice.
OR !
Elite Professions.
- Master Teras Kasi.
- Master Fencer.
- Master Swordsman.
- Master Pikeman.
- Master Rifleman.
- Master Pistoleer.
- Master Carbineer.
(any of which leave 8sp)
From what I can see here, your options are not limited as you say and I didn't bother to spend the time to put together all your options..
What's this skill point problem you have again ?
I actually thought what I wrote on page 1 of this now 5 page thread was a valid question which didn't get an answer. Only a simple slap in the face saying "I've never been a BE".. It is possible to get Master BE with a Mastery in an elite combat profession and a 'coke' vendor AND throw a few SP here and there to boost the template I suggested which was so obviously but mysteriously 100% wrong.
One thing people seem to forget is that you can assume alot, but you rarely know who you are talking too.. With a TKM/MRanger character on Scylla I don't need to be preached at about masking and camo and how people here obviously know alot more about a skill I have held across not one but two professions and camo in ranger that people seem to forget about since say two weeks before my registration date.
I think the real problem is greed... Plain and simple.
If you don't have the points to spare, you don't get the goods.. So I might get an answer other than "You haven't been a BE" take the part where I said 8SP left over and put another level into scout exploration, then consider I'm asking the same question.. Also bear in mind you can only gain one more bonus to masking IF you choose not to have a vendor, you cant master scout.
No more sploity talk, just tell me why a BE can't spare the points.. I ran alot of different variations though a character builder and this system seemed to be the best if you want master BE, master elite combat and a Vendor.
Edited: For factual correctness.
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 07-03-2004 02:43 PM
=X Snip X=
Thought I would re-examine Maisland's topic.
The PROBLEM:
I have a BE on Eclipse. In order to be a GOOD BE, I cannot spare the skill points for Artisan, let alone Business 3/Merchant.
- Merchant isn't needed , a coke vendor would do the job.
The bazaar is not a viable option to sell the pets, tissues etc that I make as there is both a 25 item limit and a 6k price cap.
- The bazaar, for me at least, is a simple tool to allow inter-planetary commerce. It needs to be less functional than vendors or everyone would just use the bazaar.
Offering my products to a merchant's vendor is not a viable option as the 25 item limit on the bazaar includes offers to vendors.
- This is not a major problem, if you make an offer to a merchant's vendor it will more than likely have been a pre-arranged deal and your making a drop off, the main problem with this statement is that it directly conflicts with the fact that this BE does NOT use the bazaar anyway, it's only half an issue at best.
I know of no merchants that would purchase my items.
- Galaxy specific boards and trade forums (see below for additional comment), if the price is right and you can strike up a deal then it's all good. Complaing about not finding people without first using all the tools at your disposal is nothing short of lazy.
I have too many items to sell to just store them in my house.
- Storage issue, and having a vendor would reduce the issue. 10 lots, bank, droid, and backpack storage is what everyone get's at best this is a totally seperate issue. If it is an issue at all, as we all know the motto "If your running out of space, your storing too much"
At this time, I find that the only way that I can get my items on the market at the prices they are worth would be to pick up Artisan, get a vendor, then drop that profession in order to pick up the skills I need to be a good BE.
- Because instead of taking the problems, looking at them and trying to find a real viable solution, the easiest way out is usually the favourite.
So, as I see it, those who are against vendor "poaching" would rather I be a mediocre BE if I want to be able to sell my items and spend the points I need to be a good BE on Artisan/Merchant. There are several posts about how we BEs are supposed to sell our items on the BE forum.
- Personal opinion and an example of why people here get defensive on the topic. Also I doubt there are any posts telling you to sell BE wares on a BE forum, galaxy specific trade and galaxy forums are the ones to use. Although trade forums are going to be the best place to post unless you have a mjor announcement about your stores opening, a massive sale (cure your stock issues) or something like that.
The response to my thought out and prepared suggestion:
You have clearly NEVER played a BE.
- DragonScout, these are those attacks you love to talk about in full operation, opening statement was to slap me in the face.. It's not only merchants, so don't defend the people you are so clearly against.. Flamers. Should I go find that post where you said that, nar.
Exploration 2 for mask scent? Ever tried sneaking up on a Rancor with mask scent at that level? Even with Exploration 4, they detect you more often than not.
- I've got a master ranger character.. Camo and masking are usefull, very usefull.. But having level III as opposed to level IV when you solve your 'problem' completely by aquiring a vendor seems a fair compramise to me.
A BE needs a viable combat skill for when (notice I do not say "IF") the creatures that are being sampled go agro... or were you thinking I should stick to sampling Corellian Butterflies and making crappy pets?
- If sampling corellian butterflies is about all you can do with that skillset then perhaps I'm not the only BE noob about. See the part where I stated that any elite combat mastery could be attained, without a problem. In fact drop your master box and you even got the Exploration IV that is the holy grail it seems! Anyone say Enhancements, I know I've got a few on my master doc to push me up to +125 ..
The setup you are recommending would make for a mediocre BE at best... and a poor one at worst... unless the BE ONLY made stims and tissues. For myself, I want to make pets... and GOOD pets at that.
- Why ? And never got an answer, even when I reposted in the second flame fest about this very post.
=X SNIP X= : Added this just to make the post even longer, I think it needed more flavour. Dare you to quote me in full.
Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 07-03-2004 03:10 PM
The Vendor Poaching Preaching Team certainly doesn't help matters with their flames and attacks.