Merchant Archive
Thread: Merchants and Suppliers
joined42904
Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:15 am
#66
Cinder...
What you need to understand is that for Merchant to be valuable as a skill, it must be a limited skill.
If one merchant can stock unlimited wares, then you only need one merchant per guild for instance. One merchant guy can sell all the crafters' wares.
Only when the ability to place items on a vendor is scarce does it have value.
Merchants will get a larger slice of the retail pie the FEWER slots are available on each vendor. If it's unlimited, then what the merchant contributes is just the stocking work which is often not much work at all. If it's limited, merchants must be seen by crafters as also contributing the opportunity cost of stocking something else when the merchant stocks that crafter's wares.
Only by constrainingthe merchant skill is it given value.
DirthNader
Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:15 am
#67
joined42904 wrote:
I think you will see easy money crafts diffentiated from hard work crafts in the new economy.
/agree
Hey, you went a post without using the word oligopoly. Better edit that thing! 
Little-Green-Guy
Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:11 am
#68
I have been doing Option #1 & #2 & #3 for many a months..i use all three effectively.
my advise is...gauge the market and become best of friends w/your suppliers...there is a common ground that is very advantegous to both parties.
Brilyn
Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:08 pm
#69
< What you need to understand is that for Merchant to be valuable as a skill, it must be a limited skill. >
Why do people keep saying this?
"Right, we're reducing the Ability of Weaponsmiths to make Melee weapons"
"Right, we're reducing the Ability of Armoursmiths to make Composite Armour"
"Right, we're reducing the amount of times aRiflemen can fire each day, before he must rest in a Cantina."
"Right, we're reducing the Ability of Merchants to stock vendors"
Which of these sounds like it makes the profession *more* valuable than it already is????
< If it's unlimited, then what the merchant contributes is just the stocking work which is often not much work at all.>
Yup. Bang on.
< If it's limited, merchants must be seen by crafters as also contributing the opportunity cost of stocking something else when the merchant stocks that crafter's wares. >
No, if it's limited then it's *less* work.
Or are you labouring under some crazy notion that I'm going to be thankfulthat a merchant wants to buy my stuff so s/he can sell it at a profit?
< Only by constrainingthe merchant skill is it given value. >
Conversely, I'd argue that only by being *useful* is something given value.
Tarnak_Archvold
Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:43 pm
#70
Brilyn wrote:As evidenced by Tarnak, a lot (if not most) Merchants are quire clueless as to what's involved in crafting.
I know how it is to be a WS, I was one for 6 months. I made good weapons, but I did not do large amounts of advertisement, be cause my shop was as a service the town I lived in. Making weapons that are with in 90-95% of the best on the server do not take even close to the effort it takes to make the ones that are within the 95-99% range. (not counting loot enhanced and limited use schematics here).
If you serve, the "leet" crowd that think a weapon is crap be cause thair friend have one that has one more max damage, then the resource part will take up a lot more time. But re-sale do not apply to this market, so for this dissection it is totally irrelevant.
Because I don't get a 20% discount for making 1000 units, as opposed to 100. In fact, it costs me more to make that much (in terms of maintenance and power).
I'm not getting why I should discount someone for the priviledge of selling to them......
Ok let me se if I can explain it to you againe.
Re-sale have no relevance to limited supply items. Such as high end composite, the "best of server" weapons, Items with loot components, and so on. If you deal in thoughts you have to sell them your self, and thus you properly have to get merchant skills.
Merchants will do well in reselling wares that can be mass produced. Say "normal" standard issue weapons, SPG from armour smiths, repair tools, power-up's and so on, WuK's, and AuK's. It is as easy to make a run of 999 VK's as to make a run of 25. And when the crafter can only stock a limited amount, they can get a higher income by selling bulk for re-sale.
Vendor caps IS coming. And any crafter who wand to have some combat skills on the side will have to sales bulk sale for re-sale to get a high income.
< If it's limited, merchants must be seen by crafters as also contributing the opportunity cost of stocking something else when the merchant stocks that crafter's wares. >
No, if it's limited then it's *less* work.
Or are you labouring under some crazy notion that I'm going to be thankful that a merchant wants to buy my stuff so s/he can sell it at a profit?
Brilyn a comment like that makes beleve you are trolling, that you real goal is down play any workability of vendor item cap at any cost.
When a merchant can only stock LIMITED amounts, then the "room" on the vendor have a value. If a merchant have to spend one vendor and all its "room" on a single crafter then He have to be compensated for that.
You could se it as a crafter renting "shelf space" in a shop.
When the vendor have no limit the amount of items it can hold, the "room" have no value, as you can always add another item.
When a Master Merchant have more "room" the a, say weaponsmith, with artisan business 3, then the weaponsmith supply the weapons and the merchant supply the "shelf space".
VarnaxDespin
Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:10 pm
#71
Brilyn wrote:
So we're moving on from consignment sales. From bulk sales to a Merchant, so he can resell at a profit.
And we're arriving at: "Pay me to put stuff on my vendor".
Stop the crazy-train, I want to get off.......
Choo Choo.....chuga chuga chuga...... 
Sevardos
Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:35 pm
#72
Brilyn wrote:
< But re-sale do not apply to this market >
Huh?
What the heck are you talking about *now*???
"I make weaponry, sell it to you, and you sell it on" has been the discussion so far. Why is it suddenly not relevant??
< It is as easy to make a run of 999 VK's as to make a run of 25 >
And you wandered blithely past my point.
It was suggested that I discount prices by 20% for a large bulk order.
I'm saying "why should I do that, it doesn't cost me any *less* to make 900 than it does to make 90".
Please, keep up, or keep out.
< Brilyn a comment like that makes beleve you are trolling, that you real goal is down play any workability of vendor item cap at any cost. >
Whoa....
The implication was made that I should be *happy* to give people a discount on the stuff that I make, so *they* can make more money.
I'm calling this a crazy notion.
And *I'm* trolling?
< When a merchant can only stock LIMITED amounts, then the "room" on the vendor have a value. If a merchant have to spend one vendor and all its "room" on a single crafter then He have to be compensated for that.
You could se it as a crafter renting "shelf space" in a shop.
When the vendor have no limit the amount of items it can hold, the "room" have no value, as you can always add another item.
When a Master Merchant have more "room" the a, say weaponsmith, with artisan business 3, then the weaponsmith supply the weapons and the merchant supply the "shelf space". >
And here we are, the insanity and greed revealed in all their repugnant glory......
So we're moving on from consignment sales. From bulk sales to a Merchant, so he can resell at a profit.
And we're arriving at: "Pay me to put stuff on my vendor".
Stop the crazy-train, I want to get off.......
Hmmmm... the concept is quite simple actually. It is true that there are no economies of scale gainedfor volume manufacturing and therefore, no incentive to offer discounts. However, this is not about incentives. This is about making a choice on what you what type of costs you want to incur.
You will have one oftwo choices that will cost you something; either,
1. Cost you points to get Merchant (sell yourself)therefore saving you credits from having to discount
or
2. Cost you credits (discount - someone else selling it) to give to a Merchant saving you points for other professions
I don't understand what the difficultly here is. It's a skill-based system, everything is about choices.
The limits is a different story but not relevant to this particular response.
Brilyn
Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:58 am
#73
< I am truly and deeply moved by your concern for the small crafters.>
I've reread my posts, and I *still* can't figure out what this is in reference to....
What the heck are you talking about?
(I'm *fairly* sure I'm a 'small crafter', but no-one has yet defined what a 'small crafter' is.)
< Merchants don't have to understand crafting. All they have to understand is what customers want and where they want to buy it. Buy that and sell it. Charge what markup you can. Pretty simple, really. >
No.....
Merchants need to understand crafting, so when someone asks them to get a Krayt Vibroknuckler, they don't ecstatically agree to this, and take a 100k deposit up front.
Because that item can't be made.
"Understanding" what customers want is simple: they want "stuff". For preferance, they want Sliced 'stuff'. No, I'm not being sarcastic, or taking the proverbial. The standard player in this game hasn't a clue about weapons. They'll buy crap because it's got a damage slice, but won't buy decent weapons (unsliced) because the "uber-sliced" one they have does 2 more points max-damage than my *un*sliced one. (this would be a pet peeve of mine)
< The interesting thing about crafting is that it is often not really more work to make 1k of something than to make 100 or something if you have the right resources assuming you don't need two amazings on the subcomponents. If you're dealing with this sort of merchandise, why not make more and sell the bulk at a small...20%?...discount to merchants? You will do fine. >
Because I don't get a 20% discount for making 1000 units, as opposed to 100. In fact, it costs me more to make that much (in terms of maintenance and power).
I'm not getting why I should discount someone for the priviledge of selling to them......
< I think you will see easy money crafts diffentiated from hard work crafts in the new economy. >
Possibly.
This would require the merchant to understand crafting though. *smirk*
Brilyn
Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:24 am
#74
< 1. Cost you points to get Merchant (sell yourself)therefore saving you credits from having to discount
or
2. Cost you credits (discount - someone else selling it) to give to a Merchant saving you points for other professions
I don't understand what the difficultly here is. It's a skill-based system, everything is about choices.
The limits is a different story but not relevant to this particular response. >
Actually, the limit directly determines what Choice 1 is worth (to me).
Below a certain number (we'll say 100 per vendor at Novice Merchant) the skill is worthless. I mean, if all the boxes in Rifleman were reduced to +1 Rifle Speed, they'd be pretty damned pointless too.
And you are stating things like I *will* be required to discount. Again with the "why should I?".
If there's no economy of scale for a crafter, why the heck do I have to create one for a Merchant?
Sevardos
Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:12 am
#75
Brilyn wrote:
And you are stating things like I *will* be required to discount. Again with the "why should I?".
If there's no economy of scale for a crafter, why the heck do I have to create one for a Merchant?
You're getting caught up in semantics. You can call it a discount from your retail price or you cancall it a wholesale price orcall it Bob for that matter.
Whatever you want to callit doesn'talter the fact that you will need to broker a deal with a merchant for a set price andthemerchant will then resell it. OR, you can choose to spend the points to be a merchant yourself and sell directly to the customer.
What that deal is (i.e., the price) is between you and the Merchant. If you're not selling it directly to the customer, then you need to sell it through a distributer / wholesaler. This is not a new / revolutionary concept.
Now, I don't disagree that the limits have a seriously negative impact to the Merchant profession as a whole and I have protested that aspect as strongly as the next person. Doesn't change the fact though that crafters will now have to make a choice when it comes to selling their goods - which was the original concept from the beginning.
VarnaxDespin
Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:36 am
#76
The problem I see with this is in the insentive, always remembering this is a game we play for enjoyment (at leaast I hope we do )-
)-Thequestion is, why would a crafter/merchant offer a large discount to a merchant just because their a indepentant merchant? What does the crafter/merchant get out of this type of arrangement? The merchant has no more special abilty to move product then a Crafter/merchant does... (I am not talking about numbers)
If crafters are basically turned into crafting factories....ie make bulk items and sell to merchants at discount prices...the crafters business becomeslinear and rather dull,they have to work very hard to gather resources, learn their craft, keep updated on changes/resource spawns, crafting items until they get just the right result, etc..and for so doing get minimal return in the form of credits and enjoyment, while the merchant justs drops some money for the final product and thows it up on their vendor at a higher rate. What is the insentive for the crafter to do this or to even craft? Where now is the fun? Crafters already spend a great deal of time alone in their shops or running factories, now thats all they will do.. become player factories.. I dont know many, if any crafters who would enjoy that.
As far as discount to the merchant, this isnt like RL where the merchant may have to incur distribution costsin the form oftime and money. Nor are there insurance, rental of commercial space, taxes, or employee costs/expences to cover. It effectivily costs the merchant nothing outside the initial purchase price to sell items on their vendor (in other words they could do this now under the current system, so why doesnt this happen more?). Why should independant merchants get any form of reward in the form of a discount for next to no effort? Or in other words... why should the merchant profit from the crafters work?
There are other issues as well,
-Most crafters are merchants (at least I have yet to meet a crafter who wasnt a merchant) and will either stay that way and adapt to any changes, or quit the proffesions if their enjoyment is no longer present.
- Where are the pure merchants going to get the initial capital to purchase these bulk good assuming they find a Crafter willing to do this? Surely not on consignment?
- If the concern/motivating desire for a player (crafter, or indepentant merchant)is money, players can make more credits runing missions, harvesting FOTM hides/meats/resources, and/or selling loot in less time with less effort then any crafting proffession I know if they focus as much time and energy into those processes as a crafter does into their crafting.
I have tested this and easily made a few million in only a few hours without even selling loot. And that was almost all Profit! If a crafter must now produce more, makes a lower % profit, and loses their ability to personally maintain a shop... I dont think many will lose enjoyment and thus many will bother anymore.
Yours,
Message Edited by VarnaxDespin on 08-14-2004 08:37 AM
Indene
Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:07 pm
#77
joined42904 wrote:I think TH in January implied that one of the reasons was to reduce what he regarded as the development of monopolies. (He probably meant oligopolies and just misspoke.)I think it's obvious to anyone that 50 items at master merchant is too low. Unless you are talking per vendor.I think the present 110 figure is actually quite reasonable. It will probably be raised because so many people are complaining about it. But 660 items is a lot of items.
You must run a very small operation. My Med Vendor alone (I have 6 vendors) had over 1000 items what with all the crates and subcrates of stims, buffs, doctor resources. Now if the DEV's implement sale from crate/stack so I can put 1 crate of 50 (100, ETC) stimB's on vendor and set a price per item and the customer buys 1-n items (and they get a crate of that size) then *MAYBE* I could have fit in 110 items (per vendor rule
I do (did) keep individual, crates of 5, 10, 50 on vendor so people of various wealth could afford to buy. Oh and the same goes for the med resources. Let me put 100k in the vendor (well maybe a MUCH higher count) and allow the user to buy 1-n at the cpu I choose.even better allow me to set price points so I can offer discounts to volume buyers.
Oh and make consignment a tool so the paperwork is gone if SOE expectes me or other Merchants to sell a lot of other crafter product.
-Indene-
Indene
Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:20 pm
#78
joined42904 wrote:EvilHomerSimpson,I find the word "oligopolist" useful to the discussion. I intend to continue using it. I am not trying to tell other people not to use words that do not constitute profanity in their posts. I would like to receive the same courtesy.
Unable to find a dictonary with the word "oligopolist". Are you sure it is a word and or not misspelled?
-Indene-