Merchant Archive
Thread: Give me a single good reason why non-merchants should not be able to use a vendor?
Super_nice_jedi
Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:32 am
#66
MaDuece wrote:
Super_nice_jedi wrote:
Yes they're not pets, vendors are inanimate objects, pets are not,
Weapons, stim Bs, poisons, molecular clamps, etc. These are all inanimate objects. Why can't just anyone be able to use these without the required skills? Feable arguement.
but what I meant was if non-CH can use pets to a limited degree
Non-CH pets existto allow you to have a mount; which is a means of transportation. The other nonCH pets are whats left of the nerfed versions of the overpowered types of nonCH pets that once existed. Many of you weren't aroundwhen cowardly gurrecks and beetle tanks dominated PvP.
then why can't non-merchants use vendors to a limited degree?
Because just like the nonCH pets of the past, the player base has demonstrated over and over how they will use EVERY loophole in the system to abuse it.
BTW, it was you, Mr. Super_nice_jedi, that confessed in another thread that you we all set to get enough merchant skills to set up a mall and then drop the skills only to find out from a Dev's statement that it was wrong. Yet you come here to this thread cooking up more excuses and reasons why you think you should go ahead and set up that virtual Walmart. I am truely begining to think that you still do not think thats there's anything wrong with it despite your confession to the contrary.
Also what I suggest will make the vendors for non-merchants so limited, that sacrificing skills to make them more useable in merchant,will be worth it, as without the other merchant skills the vendors will be virtually useless, but manageable to accept offers from the other merchants/crafters, so if this could be, then Merchant would be a whole lot better.
Making those that want to surrender the needed skill points (A MEASLY 24 FRIGGIN' POINTS) to get business 3 WILL make the merchant profession a whole lot better.
Ho-humm, you really are in lynch mode! /sigh
I'm not going back on my word, the vendors with very limited capability as I have suggested will not be good enough for what I want, and to get what I want, I'll need the necessary Merchant Skills, but I want my customers to have a facility where I can deliver their ordered goods too. If they had a vendor or something, maybe even a droid acting as postbox, I don't care, but I know that vendors have an offer facility. How this would benefit a Merchant is that if you had regular customers who buy stuff from you say on a weekly basis, you could make a delivery to their house, and offer it to their vendor, this would save you from filling up your vendors for passing customers, and fill theirs up instead, of stuff they want. The non-merchant vendors primarily (in my dream world) would mainly focus on the accepting of goods, rather than the selling, so maybe their vendors could probably hold about 5-10 items to sell, and accept up to 50 items they have purchased from several businesses.
The Bazaar is totally no good, as you can not offer an item to one individual.
MaDuece
Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:41 am
#67
Super_nice_jedi wrote:
Ho-humm, you really are in lynch mode! /sigh
I'm not going back on my word, the vendors with very limited capability as I have suggested will not be good enough for what I want, and to get what I want, I'll need the necessary Merchant Skills, but I want my customers to have a facility where I can deliver their ordered goods too. If they had a vendor or something, maybe even a droid acting as postbox, I don't care, but I know that vendors have an offer facility. How this would benefit a Merchant is that if you had regular customers who buy stuff from you say on a weekly basis, you could make a delivery to their house, and offer it to their vendor, this would save you from filling up your vendors for passing customers, and fill theirs up instead, of stuff they want. The non-merchant vendors primarily (in my dream world) would mainly focus on the accepting of goods, rather than the selling, so maybe their vendors could probably hold about 5-10 items to sell, and accept up to 50 items they have purchased from several businesses.
The Bazaar is totally no good, as you can not offer an item to one individual.
What you are talking about then, if indeed its you true intentions, is not a vendor at all. Its a mailbox. In which case, its a different issue than having a vendor and doesn't belong in the same class or discussion.
Perhaps you should start a separate thread named " I want a mailbox". Explain your arguements that you have presented here and maybe you would get a more favorable response other than a I'm-not-a-merchant-but-want-a-vendor-to-pass-stuff-to-my-buddies arguement.
Message Edited by MaDuece on 08-14-2004 01:21 PM
DesktopSaki
Sun Aug 15, 2004 9:59 am
#68
Comparing using a T21 to usinga vendor is comparing apples and oranges. A vendor, whether it's a simple robotender or an Ithorian in custom clothing, serves the exact same purpose as any other vendor. The only difference is how pretty it is. (And god knows some of the random ones we get aren't that pretty!) Not all rifles--or combat skills--are created equally, though.
Now, since they're talking about limits and things, that could be the separating factor.Say they make it so thatNovice Artisans can have vendors,but they're limited to 100 items. At Business I it goes to 125, Business II 150, etc., capping at 500 per vendor at Master Merchant. In other words, make it so any Artisan can still have their vendor, but there's still a differentiation between them and the Master Merchant.
Duckfat
Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:42 pm
#69
Alright it seems you guys have been pretty busy over the weekend but I have a life so I only get to join this debate during the downtimes at work. Anyway here is a list of the arguments made while I was gone and why they are not good reasons.
Bazaar - Many of you are stating that the bazaar is the low level effectiveness vendor that I am arguing for but there are many things wrong with the bazaar. First of all when you look at the effectiveness of any of the non-certeduses they are all based on a percentage of the certed uses. Therefore the 25 items compared to the 100 items of business 3 is about right (much like the CH max of level 40 pets compared to the non-CH max level of 10 which makes it 25%). However when you limit the price when there normally is no limit there is a problem (evenif the approx 10% effectiveness of non-certed weapons were applied to the unlimited prce cap it should still be unlimited). Placing an unrealistic cap on the item price (especially with the inflated economy of most servers) makes the bazaar unusable. In addition, if I am correct (and if I am wrong ignore this), items that are not sold after the duration of the sale are deleted and not returned to the seller. This is completely unacceptable and no one would put anything of value on the bazaar. Finally is the function of offering things to the vendor. This is something that every player should have so that people can deliver things to them. Otherwise players that play off peak are at a serious disadvantage especially when there are going to be less vendors to buy from and face to face sales may become more the norm. And since this has been incorporated into the vending system, unless it is offered in some other way, a low level vendor with a 25 item limit, no price cap, unsold items returned to the seller, and an offer function should be available to everyone.
Non-CH comparison - Many of you have said this is not a valid comparison but as some of you have even tried to use it in your arguement you have proven that it is valid. non-CHs cannot use any of the CH skills with their pets. All they can do is use them with the basic functions that the pets come with (getting them to attack, stay, follow, etc). The same can be said of the proposed non-merchant vendors (getting them to sell stuff but not advertising, reducing fees, enhancing the vendors, etc). I cannot see why you do not agree that this is at least similar in effect.
Dont have skills - This is a continuing arguement that is completely invalid. Like I stated in the non-CH arguement we are not asking to be able to use any special skills but just the basic ability to use the vendor. Therefore those trying to use the arguement that they should be able to do flamecone2 or whatever other skill is completely off the mark. You already have the ability to use the flamethrower but not any special skills, we want the ability to use the vendor but not the advertising, barker droids, merchant tents, reduced fees, etc.
Comparison to other items - I have often stated that all of the weapons can be used uncerted without even having novice. Many of you have misinterpreted it as being effective at novice and tried to use it as an example in your argument why vendors should also be used at only novice merchant or at least business 3. However if you read carefully it is always stated that you can use these weapons with absolutely no skills at all. There was also an arguement that since I am arguing to use all items at basic effectiveness that it should cover all things such as stims, poisons, etc. I completely agree but I do not believe that battle is worth fighting currently as I do this one. If I could fight to get it all implemented I would but we have to prioritize our fight. Feel free to do so on your own behalf if you feel it is more important to you.
The one thing that got me laughing the most because of its idiocy is the person who tried to argue the point and compare it to smuggler (I guess because I stated that I was a smuggler or maybe he saw it in my sig). The reason I find this funny is that there is a smuggler ability that everyone has a basic effectiveness in doing without being a smuggler. Sure you cannot make spice or slice a weapon because like I said it is a special skill that does not fall into the same category that we are asking with the vendors. What I found funny is that all players have a basic ability to evade a contraband scan. If smugglers were to argue this point as much as merchants are arguing over the vendors then everyone that is not a smuggler should fail every scan since they should have absolutely no smuggler skills to evade it much the way merchants want everyone else to have absolutely no skill in just using a vendor.
Well thats all for now. Thanks for trying and I look forward to seeing what else people have to say.
Duckfat
Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:55 pm
#70
MaDuece wrote:
Super_nice_jedi wrote:
Not really, as a vendor can do the job quite easily, but you're just dead against non-merchants having a vendor full stop, like Sigrun I grow tired of this discussion
Oh yeah the pass-stuff-to-buddies vendors slowly turns into a storage vendor because its convienent. The storagevendor turns into a might-as-well-see-if-I-can't-make-some-extra-dough vendor which ends up on the planetary map. Then it turns into an empty I'll-stock-it-whenever-I-get-around-to-it-cuz-its-just-money-on-the-side vendor.
The problem with all these nice little vendor functions is that the little boys and girls that play this game just can't settle for using stuff as it was intended for. They have to push the envelope on every function and squeal when the lollipop theyare sucking on, that actually belongs to someone else,gets taken away from them.
Oh one more point. MaDuece you seem to like to take everything to extremes. By your example you seem to be a perfect candidate to work for SOE. If something is exploitable just get rid of it instead of fixing the exploit. You do realize that all this patch will do is allow the merchants to exploit instead of fixing the problem with exploiting the vendors for storage. There have been a few examples of better solutions to fixing the use of vendors as storage but no one seems to care about them. All the merchants seem to look at is the solution that keeps everyone else from exploiting the vendor storage and letting them exploit at will.
One more thing that doesnt specifically deal with MaDueces post but I had to point out. What kind of functionality is there to get the items to the merchants without the serious option for scamming. I mean we already have the problem with smugglers so smugglers have come up with options to fix the possibility of scamming (same with the IDs but theirs has been implemented while the smuggler revamp has been pushed back almost every week). However as I read these posts and people bring it up all I hear from the merchants is deal with it and just stop using a merchant that rips you off. If that is the case I see the merchants needing a hell of alot of money to buy things upfront. In addition I hope the merchants dont think that the crafters are going to sell to them at a special cheaper price so that is also going to cost you a big upfront payment and then you are stuck with items you may not sell. Therefore I see a very limitedselection of items in your vendors as most would only buy what they are sure they can sell at a profit. Or this will just create crafter/merchants that can corner the market with cheaper goods. In any case a bad deal all around and a good reason this vendor change is bad.
SeraphinAnnie
Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:57 pm
#71
Okie, since this is still going on, I'll throw in my 2 cents, although most of it has been said and rebuked despite the reasons being very clear. People just don't want to accept it. This thread just comes down to wants. People want it and because they don't want to invest in it, they should get it because they want it. Doesn't work that way though.
I'd agree that there IS a valid desire for a freebie vendor for everyone. However, I'd never agree to anything more than one vendor, 100 item cap, high maintenance, no perks. I can see why SOE would hesitate to implement such a thing though. First of all, the basic rules of an MMO: 1) People will always exploit however they can. 2) People are never happy with what they are given, and will always argue that they need more.
While I agree 1 freebie vendor would be nice, I do not agree with any of the reasons being argued for it. Especially the one about how combat professions are more important and therefore should be exempt from the need for merchant skills to own them, based upon the belief that crafters don't "need' their skill points so who cares if they have to invest in the skills. What template, combat OR crafting *doesn't* need skill points? Bad argument, sorry. You may believe your template is more important than a crafter's, but I assure you, it's not a fact. Besides, I'd like to be master of 5 professions, but that's not a valid *reason* to get all the skills I want for free.
Also, let go of the idea of just removing Merchant already. If you want a free vendor without having to invest in artisan, how in the world is moving vendor skills to crafting professions going to help you? It won't. The class is useful for those who want to run a business. I don't particularly think Squad Leader is all that useful, but I'm yelling for it to be removed from the game. 
Lastly, SOE has already stated many times that it was never intended for Merchant to be the only profession that you could retain skills after dropping the skill boxes. Whether it's a combat special, a crafting schematic, or a vendor, they are all essentially "skills". Arguing details of whether merchant skills are placing/using/maintaining is rather pointless. You place a vendor TO use it. Period. No one places them without that being the purpose, so any point that it's "placing only" is invalid. If that was a valid argument, then they could give you the ability to "place" a vendor, but not actually use it, and you'd be happy? Er, no. You want to USE it. SOE agrees with that as well.
Also the argument that since it's been a year already that it's "too late to fix it now"...ok. So, if SOE announces tomorrow "Hey, we've decided not to do a combat revamp at all. After all, it's been broken yet working for 1 year, it's too late now."...that would be ok with you? Doubtful, and the reasoning is the same, although you could argue that combat is more important again. Still not valid. It's something broken that needs to be fixed. So they're doing it.
I do sympathize with those who want a small side business but don't have the spare points, I do. But with every change comes adaptation, there's not much choice now.
MaDuece
Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:17 pm
#72
Duckfat wrote:
Alright it seems you guys have been pretty busy over the weekend but I have a life so I only get to join this debate during the downtimes at work.
So you time off on the weekend is more valuable than the time during the week at work? Hmmm....interesting. No wonder why American companies are in a rush to outsource to other countries.
Bazaar - Placing an unrealistic cap on the item price (especially with the inflated economy of most servers) makes the bazaar unusable.
WRONG. You simply choose to dismiss the bazaar because you can't charge people more money for your stuff on it. There is a reason for this: EVERYONE AND HIS DOG CAN USE THE BAZAAR TO SELL STUFF. Ever noticed that T21 with 0 condition on it? Or how about that melon for 6k? If you put decent quality goods at a fair price on the bazaar it will sell. If the going rate for that item is 10k and you place it for 6k it WILL sell. Its not unusable. You just don't know how to use it.
In addition, if I am correct (and if I am wrong ignore this), items that are not sold after the duration of the sale are deleted and not returned to the seller.
WRONG. If it doesn't sell you get an email notification that you have a certain amount of time to come pick it back up. This is PROOF that you have no clue what you are talking about. You dismiss the bazaar as useless yet you clearly haven't even tried to use it. I would venture to say that it is further proof of your creditbility in general if you so loosely assert something to be useless without even bothering to check it out first.
This is completely unacceptable and no one would put anything of value on the bazaar.
WRONG. AGAIN. I supplement my food vendor sales by placing the SAME quality bioenhanced brandy on it for 6k. I average 150k in sales a DAY just off the bazaar alone. I also place the information to my vendor with the brandy that states that "you can get the same stuff on my vendor" at a reduced price if you purchase it by the crate (100k per crate). It not only makes me extra money, it also attracts more customers.
Non-CH comparison - Many of you have said this is not a valid comparison but as some of you have even tried to use it in your arguement you have proven that it is valid.
WRONG. Noone has to get CH skills and DROP it to be able to have a level 10 pet.
non-CHs cannot use any of the CH skills with their pets. All they can do is use them with the basic functions that the pets come with (getting them to attack, stay, follow, etc).
WRONG. They don't come with any commands.A qualified CH has to train the animal. A qualification he/she is required to KEEP to be able to do so.
The same can be said of the proposed non-merchant vendors (getting them to sell stuff but not advertising, reducing fees, enhancing the vendors, etc).
WRONG. To even get a vendor you have to have the skills. Merchant is the ONLY profession where a player can surrender the skills needed to gain an ability yet get to keep that same ability. TH says its an exploit. DocSavag says its an exploit. If it smells like a Duckfart.....IT MUST BE A DUCKFART.
I cannot see why you do not agree that this is at least similar in effect.
Because its NOT SIMILAR. Its as a big a difference as Duckfat and a Duckfart.
Because you have already proven that not only will you dismiss something as useless without even trying it out first. This has erased all creditibility in ANY of your arguements in my book.
Dont have skills - This is a continuing arguement that is completely invalid.
TH says it is. Doc says it is. You, the person that now lacks ENORMOUS amounts of credibility, still can't see it even after you have repeatedly had your nose rubbed in all the reasons why it is.
Like I stated in the non-CH arguement we are not asking to be able to use any special skills but just the basic ability to use the vendor.
You are asking for something that doesn't rightfully belong to you. Don't go away mad........just go away.
Therefore those trying to use the arguement that they should be able to do flamecone2 or whatever other skill is completely off the mark. You already have the ability to use the flamethrower but not any special skills,
Everyone has the ability to use ANY weapon at a REDUCED effectiveness. Which in your case, would be the bazaar.
we want the ability to use the vendor but not the advertising, barker droids, merchant tents, reduced fees, etc.
You want something for nothing. You aren't willing to surrender the MEASLY 24 POINTS to get and keep business 3 but you want all the perks. Your mommy may give you all you want without working for itbut she doesn't work for SOE.
The one thing that got me laughing the most because of its idiocy is the person who tried to argue the point and compare it to smuggler (I guess because I stated that I was a smuggler or maybe he saw it in my sig). The reason I find this funny is that there is a smuggler ability that everyone has a basic effectiveness in doing without being a smuggler. Sure you cannot make spice or slice a weapon because like I said it is a special skill that does not fall into the same category that we are asking with the vendors. What I found funny is that all players have a basic ability to evade a contraband scan.
You have clearly been spending too much time sniffing your own Duckfarts. Only smugglers and those with the rank of Imperial Colonel have this ability. AND GUESS WHAT? IF THEY GIVE IT UP, THEN THEY LOSE THAT ABILITY! DUH!
Well thats all for now. Thanks for trying and I look forward to seeing what else people have to say.
Thanks for coming back and showing everyone you haven't gotten any smarter.
BTW if you need a clue, I sell them on my vendor. I'll give you a special rate since you seem to be in dire need.
OckVofad
Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:19 pm
#73
I'd be happy to let non-merchants use a vendor if I was able to create one and sell it to you.
The devs have stated that dropping skills and keeping the vendors is an exploit. It looks like that is coming to an end soon.
If I were you I'd be moving my stuff off my vendors instead of posting pointless protest threads.
Elyssa
Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:28 pm
#74
I've got lots of houses for sale if you need the storage space.
SakeO
Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:08 am
#75
Alright, I'll skip the multi-clored post and just state my point of view.
Vendors are a valuable profession perk, like certs, schematics, and other abilities that has a lesser basic version useable by all characters. The non-CH pet comparison has been brought up andI feel is very applicable. Flawed as it is (better accessibility?), the Bazaar is one alternative as are secure trades. You have to decide between item and price maximums vs. automation and galactic accessibility. The non-CH pet is lacking as pets go compared to one a CH could control with 3 blocks of the profession (lvl 10 vs. 19?). Uncertified weapon use pales even more vs. certified use. You could even call powerup use a lesser form of slicing. The point remains that with trade forums, auction channels, secure trade and bazaars you can sell any item if you put in the effort. If you want it easy , spend the skill points.
It seems Dukfat is unwilling to recognize this point but, like any other activity in the game, success at selling requires a skillpoint expenditure. It seems he wants his cake and eat it too.
The whole topic is pretty irrelevant as SOE seems dead set about reducing items on vendors and that vendor use by non-artisians is an unintended feature of the game whose bug is being exterminated. Stripped for combat will now mean you will have to work to sell off your loot. I welcome these changes.
SakeO
Redguard
Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:02 am
#76
I can simplify this argument. Like most gamers you want everything available to you. You don't want to have to make choices. I'm not going to lay blame upon you Duckfat because it's not just you that feels this way. It's an unfortunate development in gaming culture that we (notice I include myself) tend to be very self absorbed and as a consequence we're also selfish.
The mentality of I play for this game so it should cater to my every whim is something that I've not only seen on MMOG's (It's sad that they took the RP out) but in live action activities as well. Way too many players are so obsessed with whats going on in the box(meaning the game)that they cannot think outside of it. They have a singular point of view and do not seem to understand that others might not share in their way of thinking.
In the box you can get away with this but in the real world it causes problems. Duckfat, you're not taking into consideration that other people enjoy the merchant play style. I've known people that were thrilled that they don't have to kill things to make progress and be successful. You've chosen a play style that other people may not enjoy but these people will not request that they should receive some sort of combat benefit because they cannot fight well. You're not being salient of the enjoyment that others get out of crafting and salesmanship. You're point of view is in conflict with other people's out of the box reasons for playing.
You have made a choice and that means that you do not have a vendor. You can always change your character if you really feel the need to have one but please understand that I'm not going to take a leak in your bowl of cornflakes if you don't take a leak in mine. Accept the limitations of your choices and understnd that what your suggesting is not acceptable to a great number of people that craft.
Jokurt
Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:06 am
#77
Easy soloution to all the vendor discussion:
Only merchants can build/recrute vendors.
Only merchants can place vendors.
But merchants can sell vendors
Vendors will braek over time, so you have to call a merchant to "repair" it.
-Merchant profession is useful since it can "craft" vendors and can have many vendors.
-Everybody can have a limited amount of vendors.
--> Everybody happy
Novock
Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:38 am
#78
The argument that anyone can use a weapon being uncerted is a terrible argument, surely you can do better than that. You can shoot it yes but hit something with it.... lol, do any damage with... lol. How lame. What you are saying is since we can pull a trigger (even though we couldn't hit the sky with an entire clip) you should be able to sell all your wares and sell your thousands maybe even millions of dollars of merchandise and loot... really... is that really how you're going to argue after such a herrendous stand of arrogance to start this thread?
The second argument is that of non-ch pets. Okay here we go again. Let's talk rationally.... oh yeah that has been ruled out already... oh well here goes anyway. If you want the equivalent of a non-ch pet or an uncerted weapon equivalent of a vendor what would u get... a vendor with a 10 maybe 20 item max? Isn't that the bazzar we already have? No you don't want a non-Ch pet equivalent of a vendor, you want a lvl 20 or lvl 30 pet equivalent maybeeven a lvl 70 Rancor equivelent,you want unlimited number of items and to sell with no caps don't you? You know you do... common lets here the truth...thats why you're on here arguing with the merchants and businessmen and women that we have no right to have exclusive dibs on vendors. You want to pass off on us that we can pull a trigger so you shoud be able to sell all that you want, but reality is you should have to come to us to sell your goods thats why we spend the points to be merchants... and if you don't like it... well i guess thats just tuff beans isn't it. No matter how much you rant the reality is still coming and I'm cheering it, if you don't have the skills you don't have the thrills baby.... lol.. hey that was lame but you got to have fun.
But I already know whats coming, more rants and more flawed rambling about anyone should be able to sell, but the reality is that anyone can sell.. its called the bazzar. If you have to much stuff for it then put it on forum trade or forum auction.
Cheers fellow merchants we may get incapped by a kreetle but WE CAN SELL STUFF!!!! :smileytongue
in game Oasis
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