Merchant Archive
Thread: Give me a single good reason why non-merchants should not be able to use a vendor?
DesktopSaki wrote:
I'm a surveyor and Ranger, so I *always* have far more than the Bazaar would let me sell at a time. Having my own vendor isa boon, helps me manage my inventory, and helps me make creature and harvested/sampled resources available to other players with ease. I still use the Bazaar, but I can't rely solely on it.
I have a good relationship with a guild merchant who pays me in advance, but if I really dropped everything on her, it'd be her risk to pay me for things she may or may not sell promptly. 500 grind hides is one thing; 350k of high quality steel is another.
And the "you don't have the skills" thing doesn't hold water with me. The skill is to CREATE a vendor, not to use or manage one. If non-merchants are losing their vendors in Publish 10, then anything once placed by a Master Politician who has since dropped that skill should poof. (As far as I know, they don't, please correct me if I'm wrong.) Perhaps any unsold deeds Architects hold should also poof if they drop that skill.
Wow, here we go again with this argument that the skill is to create a vendor, not manage one. This is the major flaw in all of the arguments agains the vendor nerf.
I say that the skill is, indeed, to manage a vendor. Gawd, the skill tree is called management, not placing. Most Vendors appear as NPCs for a reason: they are supposed to be people. In order to manage this staff, you would need to maintain the required management skills. Why is this so hard for people to understand? And this applies equally to terminal vendors and droids - you require the specific knowledge to utilize, manage and maintain these specialized machines.
A question that relates this to a real-life situation: If you were the operator of a small business, and you took a course in business management, would the course end after they taught you only how to hire someone? That's how your argument plays out here. If the skill is placing, not management, then all the skill boxes teach a merchant is how to hire someone. People mangement doesn't enter into it whatsoever. As I said before, this isa strange thing for a skill tree called "management"
Look at it this way. For over a year now, you have had staff that you no longer knew how to manage effectively. Despite this, they have stayed, because you continued to at least pay their wages. Now, however, they have had enough of your hackneyed management style, and they're quitting. Once you've learned how to manage employees again, you can re-hire them and keep them on as staff.
MaDuece wrote:
Duckfat wrote:
Alright it seems you guys have been pretty busy over the weekend but I have a life so I only get to join this debate during the downtimes at work.
So you time off on the weekend is more valuable than the time during the week at work? Hmmm....interesting. No wonder why American companies are in a rush to outsource to other countries.
Actually yes it is. And I outsource nothing. Being a system admin that has a smooth running network and thus a good amount of downtime is not a bad thing.
Bazaar - Placing an unrealistic cap on the item price (especially with the inflated economy of most servers) makes the bazaar unusable.
WRONG. You simply choose to dismiss the bazaar because you can't charge people more money for your stuff on it. There is a reason for this: EVERYONE AND HIS DOG CAN USE THE BAZAAR TO SELL STUFF. Ever noticed that T21 with 0 condition on it? Or how about that melon for 6k? If you put decent quality goods at a fair price on the bazaar it will sell. If the going rate for that item is 10k and you place it for 6k it WILL sell. Its not unusable. You just don't know how to use it.
Im sorry maybe its because I passed my economics class. Do you really think anyone in their right mind would want to sell something worth 10k on the bazaar for 6k? What is the purpose of the price cap? There is already an item cap (which I have stated would be fine with the non-merchant vendor as well). Why is there a cap that allows me to sell a noob melon or a broken T21 but not a useful T21. I would imagine that this person running the bazaar would not tell me 'Oh no you cant sell that its to good and I would have to charge to much'.
In addition, if I am correct (and if I am wrong ignore this), items that are not sold after the duration of the sale are deleted and not returned to the seller.
WRONG. If it doesn't sell you get an email notification that you have a certain amount of time to come pick it back up. This is PROOF that you have no clue what you are talking about. You dismiss the bazaar as useless yet you clearly haven't even tried to use it. I would venture to say that it is further proof of your creditbility in general if you so loosely assert something to be useless without even bothering to check it out first.
I already stated it may not still be this way but oh no there goes my credibility because I stated what I experienced and it has changed since then. I used the vendor when I first started the game at release and I tried to sell some of my loot. I never got my items back that didnt sell. Maybe it was glitched or whatever but that was my experience and I stopped using it. Oh wait that would mean that I have tried to use it and according to your logic since you stated otherwise there goes your credibility.
This is completely unacceptable and no one would put anything of value on the bazaar.
WRONG. AGAIN. I supplement my food vendor sales by placing the SAME quality bioenhanced brandy on it for 6k. I average 150k in sales a DAY just off the bazaar alone. I also place the information to my vendor with the brandy that states that "you can get the same stuff on my vendor" at a reduced price if you purchase it by the crate (100k per crate). It not only makes me extra money, it also attracts more customers.
Just because you can put a single bottle of brandy on the vendor or something you are comfortable selling at 6k does not mean it is effective for everyone. I said something of worth. 6k is nothing and I destroy any loot that is worth that little.
Non-CH comparison - Many of you have said this is not a valid comparison but as some of you have even tried to use it in your arguement you have proven that it is valid.
WRONG. Noone has to get CH skills and DROP it to be able to have a level 10 pet.
What the hell are you smoking? Please point to any post of mine that compares this to getting merchant skills and dropping them. I am talking about the nerf to CH and the addition of non-CH pets. I said that if this nerf to merchant goes through that there should also be non-merchant vendors (and yes this includes non-artisan).
non-CHs cannot use any of the CH skills with their pets. All they can do is use them with the basic functions that the pets come with (getting them to attack, stay, follow, etc).
WRONG. They don't come with any commands.A qualified CH has to train the animal. A qualification he/she is required to KEEP to be able to do so.
OMG who is talking about things without knowing what they are talking about now? You do know that a non-CH pet has commands taught to them that a non-CH can command the pet with right? Commands that when sold the new user who is not a CH can still use with the pet. Oh oh looks like your credibility is getting worse by the minute.
The same can be said of the proposed non-merchant vendors (getting them to sell stuff but not advertising, reducing fees, enhancing the vendors, etc).
WRONG. To even get a vendor you have to have the skills. Merchant is the ONLY profession where a player can surrender the skills needed to gain an ability yet get to keep that same ability. TH says its an exploit. DocSavag says its an exploit. If it smells like a Duckfart.....IT MUST BE A DUCKFART.
Do you understand the word proposed? I am talking about the proposed non-merchant vendors and you are talking about vendors from surrendered skills. It may look like a duckfart, it may smell like a duckfart, it may even taste like a duckfart but why are you talking about that since we are talking about chicken.
I cannot see why you do not agree that this is at least similar in effect.
Because its NOT SIMILAR. Its as a big a difference as Duckfat and a Duckfart.
Because you have already proven that not only will you dismiss something as useless without even trying it out first. This has erased all creditibility in ANY of your arguements in my book.
Until you learn some reading comprehension I dont suggest you look at anything in your book.
Dont have skills - This is a continuing arguement that is completely invalid.
TH says it is. Doc says it is. You, the person that now lacks ENORMOUS amounts of credibility, still can't see it even after you have repeatedly had your nose rubbed in all the reasons why it is.
Once again you are missing the point. I am stating that there are things in this game such as the non-CH pet that you can use without having CH related skills. This should be the same for the proposed non-merchant vendor. I am not saying as you are implying that you should use skills that you do not have.
Like I stated in the non-CH arguement we are not asking to be able to use any special skills but just the basic ability to use the vendor.
You are asking for something that doesn't rightfully belong to you. Don't go away mad........just go away.
All I am doing is asking and stating the reasons why everyone should have it. Why are you getting so mad asking me to go away? Is it because you cannot refute the reasons that I have given? Is that why you try to change every reason I give into some off the subject reason that will give you a reason to argue against it? So far you have not addressed any of the issues I have brought up. All you do is talk about old exploits and not the reasoning behind the topic of he proposed vendors.
Therefore those trying to use the arguement that they should be able to do flamecone2 or whatever other skill is completely off the mark. You already have the ability to use the flamethrower but not any special skills,
Everyone has the ability to use ANY weapon at a REDUCED effectiveness. Which in your case, would be the bazaar.
Not the same. You already state that you can use ANY weapon at reduced effectiveness. So why can we not use ANY vendor at reduced effectiveness? Why are we relegated to just the useless bazaar? Are you relegated to just use the useless CDEF?
we want the ability to use the vendor but not the advertising, barker droids, merchant tents, reduced fees, etc.
You want something for nothing. You aren't willing to surrender the MEASLY 24 POINTS to get and keep business 3 but you want all the perks. Your mommy may give you all you want without working for itbut she doesn't work for SOE.
Here goes most of what is left of your credibility. I have already stated that I would get the required skills and have already given up some other skills and am already at business 2. That does not mean that I should give up the right to fight for something that I think should be done better.
The one thing that got me laughing the most because of its idiocy is the person who tried to argue the point and compare it to smuggler (I guess because I stated that I was a smuggler or maybe he saw it in my sig). The reason I find this funny is that there is a smuggler ability that everyone has a basic effectiveness in doing without being a smuggler. Sure you cannot make spice or slice a weapon because like I said it is a special skill that does not fall into the same category that we are asking with the vendors. What I found funny is that all players have a basic ability to evade a contraband scan.
You have clearly been spending too much time sniffing your own Duckfarts. Only smugglers and those with the rank of Imperial Colonel have this ability. AND GUESS WHAT? IF THEY GIVE IT UP, THEN THEY LOSE THAT ABILITY! DUH!
Wow are you even playing the same game? Are you trying to tell me that if a non-smuggler with contraband gets scanned he will always get caught? I mean according to you only smugglers should be able to evade scans because they are the only ones with that ability. I guarantee you that there are a ton of non-smugglers exploiting in some way if this is the case. And I thought you had no more credibility to lose. I suggest you take your own advice and get to know the game before you start trying to argue anything about it.
Well thats all for now. Thanks for trying and I look forward to seeing what else people have to say.
Thanks for coming back and showing everyone you haven't gotten any smarter.
BTW if you need a clue, I sell them on my vendor. I'll give you a special rate since you seem to be in dire need.
Thats ok I dont need it. The only reason it would appear that I am no smarter is its hard to improve on perfection. mwahahahahaha.
Redguard wrote:
I can simplify this argument. Like most gamers you want everything available to you. You don't want to have to make choices. I'm not going to lay blame upon you Duckfat because it's not just you that feels this way. It's an unfortunate development in gaming culture that we (notice I include myself) tend to be very self absorbed and as a consequence we're also selfish.
The mentality of I play for this game so it should cater to my every whim is something that I've not only seen on MMOG's (It's sad that they took the RP out) but in live action activities as well. Way too many players are so obsessed with whats going on in the box(meaning the game)that they cannot think outside of it. They have a singular point of view and do not seem to understand that others might not share in their way of thinking.
In the box you can get away with this but in the real world it causes problems. Duckfat, you're not taking into consideration that other people enjoy the merchant play style. I've known people that were thrilled that they don't have to kill things to make progress and be successful. You've chosen a play style that other people may not enjoy but these people will not request that they should receive some sort of combat benefit because they cannot fight well. You're not being salient of the enjoyment that others get out of crafting and salesmanship. You're point of view is in conflict with other people's out of the box reasons for playing.
You have made a choice and that means that you do not have a vendor. You can always change your character if you really feel the need to have one but please understand that I'm not going to take a leak in your bowl of cornflakes if you don't take a leak in mine. Accept the limitations of your choices and understnd that what your suggesting is not acceptable to a great number of people that craft.
Duckfat wrote:OMG who is talking about things without knowing what they are talking about now? You do know that a non-CH pet has commands taught to them that a non-CH can command the pet with right? Commands that when sold the new user who is not a CH can still use with the pet. Oh oh looks like your credibility is getting worse by the minute.The same can be said of the proposed non-merchant vendors (getting them to sell stuff but not advertising, reducing fees, enhancing the vendors, etc).
I think you missed the point of fact that a CH has to teach the pet those skills before a non-CH can use them with the pet. Pets (animal ones) do not come with skills without being taught by a CH who currently has skills. Thus your entire analogy about why everyone should have a vendor because non-CH pets exists falls apart completely.
If you read the rest of the forum, you will see merchants begging for a way to consign vendors to other people in some way shape or form. To allow for exactly the same sort of concept of a non-CH using an animal pet. Many merchants -want- that sort of functionality.
Duckfat wrote:
Blah Blah Blah
Message Edited by MaDuece on 08-17-2004 08:36 PM
Skills placing, not using, thx
This is simply not true. It never was and it never will be. The pop up text that says "...place a vendor..." does NOT mean that the intent of the skill was to allow non merchants to operate vendors. The idea that it does is illogical. And the devs have clarified their intent three times now. That argument should be retired.
The skill is "Manage Vendor" the intent was that you have the skills to manage the number of vendors you have. as of publish 10 you will have to comply with the intent. Thats it.
Duckfat Wrote:
In addition the one thing I want in a vendor is the ability for someone that does not play the same time as I do to deliver things to me. There is nothing else in the game that functions this way and it is necessary for people like me who can only play offpeak.
This seem to be the root of the problem. This is a good point. So lets try to fix the problem and not fight about it.
I see 2 ways to fix this
1) Add a Droid that can be placed in houses to act as a drop off (not pick up) point.
2) Have a drop of Vendor (no sales) that all players could use. This would be limited to 1 per house with100 max storage
Just so everyone know I have a Char who is a Master Merchant, Weaponsmith, and Armorsmith
They are not merchant.
next.
DocSavag wrote:
I have seen some good "post office" type proposals before that address the drop off. I support that as long as it can't be used to run a shop without vendor skills.
Well this has been a fun test of the mentality of the merchant community. As I figured the issue really is about merchants wanting to have a complete monopoly of the vending system. I really could care less as I have stated multiple times that I have the skills and will keep my vendors. However there has yet to be a merchant that can truely argue for a valid reason other than "because we should be the only ones to use vendors" (which btw is not a valid reason but rather an opinion). None of you even try to accept the fact that there would be obvious reasons to allow others to have non-merchant vendors and I still cannot believe how stubborn you are (I mean come on every time I bring it up you skirt around the factors I bring up and try to make it into something else you can refute). Maybe after you are over the fact that people have been using your skills without spending the points will you see the light. For now you seem blinded by hate.
The main reason for the non-merchant vendor proposal was to address the issue of the drop off delivery functionality that everyone should have and has nothing to do with being a merchant. Unfortunately that function has been bundled into the vendor system and the most logical way to keep that function for everyone would be the proposed non-merchant vendor. The other reasons for having a non-merchant vendor are also valid but really just icing on the cake. Why should the devs go through all the trouble of redesigning a drop off delivery system when it is already there in the vendors? I mean like I said before these 25 item vendors (even without a price cap) should not really pose a threat to a merchants gaming experience (if it does then you are either selling crappy goods or you need to get out and away from your computer more).
Anyway we shall see how things go after the patch. I really hope that the devs have more insight than the people I have been trying to reach in this little test. Either way my toon has been one of adaptation from the day of release and will continue to do so. I have long since gotten rid of my master pistoleer when the devs nerfed it to oblivion. Since then it has been a continuous shift between survey, exploration, and hunting skills. Now business has fallen into the mix.
A special invite goes out to MaDeuce. Feel free to come visit my vendors (coords in sig). My two smuggling wenches have been there for quite a while and they arent going anywhere anytime soon (regardless of what you think). In all of this you continued to ignore the fact that I was arguing not for myself but for the masses. I would not use the non-merchant vendors as they would not hold the capacity I need for my smuggling operations. I still think that the massesshould have them.
That is all. Carry on.