Merchant Archive
Thread: Vendor Poaching -- What is a VIABLE Solution?
DragonScout wrote:
The boards are not required reading to play SWG. Period. End of Story. You cannot argue against it. You do NOT have to read them. Here... let me say it again. You (general you meaning everyone that plays SWG) do NOT have to read the SWG forums to play SWG.
okay.. got that? good. 
Now.. show me any proof you can find of where it says in game that vendors are supposed to poof when you drop merchant. If anything, I can show textual evidence from the merchant skill boxes saying that you gain the ability to 'place' vendors.. nothing about maintaining them. And regardless or not if that was the developers intentions, it does nothing to suggest to casual players that they are doing anything wrong.
So stop trying to say players 'should' know.. because there is nothing that requires them to come read the boards.
1. Show me where I said reading the boards were required to play the game. Got that? Good
2. Here is the original "problem" that was posted by Ewach:
Ewach wrote:
How or why is it anyone's fault, beyond the person playing, that they don't know about upcoming changesin game?
Where should they go if they feel the desire to learn more about the game? The patch noteswhen you're logging into the game? How often do you take to read through those in their entirety? Perhaps SOE should send notarized letters in triplicate to every subscriber every time they discuss possible changes to the game? That would ensure everyone knows what's going on yes?
When have any planned changes to the game been broadcast inside the game, with the exception of the patch notes? Show me examples of SOE making announcements like that would you?
As far as the proof in game about vendor poofing, there isn't any, because it's being discussed here! What a concept!
So all these poor people who are being kept out of the SOE forums won't be able to find out anything about game changes until the patch dealing withsaid changescomes up.
Where's the problem here?
Instead of beating a dead horse, which this little side line is turning into, how about you take Samwise's approach and post some constructive ideas about the upcoming changes. Here is a link to that excellent post, add your ideas to that so we can all make merchant a class worth playing. Maybe then these boards will get back to what they're supposed to be.
As far as a dead horse.. this isn't one. For you to say that anyone should just 'know' about vendor poaching being 'wrong' because the forums are available is just not realistic. Most people play games just to enjoy themselves and don't get wrapped up into it anymore than they have to. If they come to the boards it is to use the trade forums or look for specific problems they are dealing with an unable to find in game help for. That is the only reason I started coming to the merchant forums. The grind was terrible and I wanted ideas for making it more active instead of passive.
Sadly, the current merchant population on these forums seems to be against an active profession, one that thrives on more than just vendors.. but I will continue posting my ideas for ways to improve the profession outside of being stock boys who don't have to use any merchant skills to succeed... but instead just have to be good business men that don't actually want to play the game as a merchant except when they are stocking their vendors.
DragonScout wrote:
I already have posted constructive ideas. Perhaps instead of letting the non-merchants(or people that don't look at themselves as merchants) do your work for you, you might come up with some of your own ideas.
You've contributed some ideas here? Hmmm, I'll have to go check your threads. Must've missed them, were they your early ones?
As far as a dead horse.. this isn't one. For you to say that anyone should just 'know' about vendor poaching being 'wrong' because the forums are available is just not realistic. Most people play games just to enjoy themselves and don't get wrapped up into it anymore than they have to. If they come to the boards it is to use the trade forums or look for specific problems they are dealing with an unable to find in game help for. That is the only reason I started coming to the merchant forums. The grind was terrible and I wanted ideas for making it more active instead of passive.
Go back and re-read my arguments instead of putting words in my mouth. All I've been saying is that if someone doesn't know about the merchant situation, they have nobody to blame except themselves. It is their choice to not come here, the boards are open to anyone playing the game,it's not like any of this info is locked away. If they don't ever bother to come digging around here, they'll learn about it either when the patch notes hit or when they're in game. This is a NON-ISSUE.
Sadly, the current merchant population on these forums seems to be against an active profession, one that thrives on more than just vendors..
That's your opinion, I see a board that has been beaten down by constant "Merchant is stupid" or "I should be able to keep my merchant without using the skill points" threads.
but I will continue posting my ideas for ways to improve the profession outside of being stock boys who don't have to use any merchant skills to succeed... but instead just have to be good business men that don't actually want to play the game as a merchant except when they are stocking their vendors.
Good, I look forward to seeing more of your ideas. As for myself, I usually work best when I've got other people to bounce ideas off of, which was why I loved Samwise's post so much. I'm ruminating on a couple of the suggestions, I encourage you to do the same.
What have you done except pick at people who ask questions or voice their opinions? You aren't as outright with your attacks as some of the others, but you still attack them with comments like:
"Ignorance of the law is still no excuse though."
"What I'm trying to get across is that this info can be freely accessed, so if anyone doesn't know about it, it's their own fault."
"It's the truth, plain and simple. Repeat after me, nobody is blocking anyone's access to these forums. Try getting pulled over for speeding and tell the cop it isn't your fault because you didn't know what the speed limit is. He'll laugh at you and still give you the ticket anyways.
Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean that it's not going to happen. If you choose not to be a part of this community, and add your two cents in, your opinion is going to mean squat. I'm not being elitist, or arrogant. I'm stating a fact."
"If someone doesn't know about the upcoming changes , it is nobodies fault besides their own."
Four different examples. I am not putting words in your mouth. The garbage just keeps coming out. Patch notes are different, those are pushed into peoples faces by SOE when they try to enter the game. That is information that I am sure SOE considers required reading. If you choose to ignore that, that would be your fault -- like ignoring a speed limit. But not knowing about some upcoming change or opinion of the DEVs because they don't read the forums does not make it their fault because it is NOT required reading, not suggested reading, not part of the game period. The forums are add on content that you can take or leave as you wish.
As far as a non-issue... you can't even claim that, because you keep saying it is their fault that they don't know. And then you endorse the flaming and attacks when readers new to the forums or the merchant forums ask questions. It shouldn't matter if the question is asked over and over. If you cannot respond politely and constructively, perhaps you shouldn't respond at all. And if they are coming to the forums to find out what is the situation, you should tell them nicely and hope they will do the 'right' thing -- since that is the outcome you are hoping for. But unfortunately, it is the responses to questions in this forum that turns so many people against merchant and into the attitude of "screw them!".
And don't bother typing "that is your opinion" anymore. Because get this concept.. everything I write is of course my opinion. And nothing I say holds anymore weight than what anyone else says. Because it is just that... an opinion. And another cool concept... Opinions can change. Right now, the current DEV opinion on vendor poaching is that it is unintended and something they want to change. Never know.. That opinion might change. Until it hits the patch notes, everything on the boards is just that, a current opinion subject to change. And even once it is in game, it is still subject to change. So don't tell me 'that is your opinion' like yours holds any more weight. Because unless you can pull out the DEV account name, you are just as much in the dark as the rest of us -- and it is just your opinion too.
DragonScout wrote:
lol. Exactly how did you forget the arguments we had over my ideas of commodities markets and trade between various cities and merchant based missions? Those are suggestions for improvements. But maybe that was someone else that told me any idea that pulls merchant away from vendors is a horrible step backwards.
So now you're forgetting who you're even arguing with in here? We've had discussions before this where I was wondering why you were coming down on Balk so much, that's about the only interaction you and I have had up till this point.
I don't really care though. I know what suggestions I have made. What suggestions have you made? That are original and geared towards helping/improving the profession. I provide constructive criticism...
I'm not the one who made the statement about adding to the boards, you are, and almost everything of yours I've seen hasn't been constructive.
I don't like how merchant is right now, and I have made suggestions on how I would improve it. Several different ways in fact, from lowering/removing the skill point cost to changing it from the passive role it has to a more active one, to ideas about branching merchant out away from just vendors.
Good, give me some links, because I did go back through your quite a few of your previous merchant posts, and I couldn't see them.
What have you done except pick at people who ask questions or voice their opinions? You aren't as outright with your attacks as some of the others, but you still attack them with comments like:
"Ignorance of the law is still no excuse though."
"What I'm trying to get across is that this info can be freely accessed, so if anyone doesn't know about it, it's their own fault."
"It's the truth, plain and simple. Repeat after me, nobody is blocking anyone's access to these forums. Try getting pulled over for speeding and tell the cop it isn't your fault because you didn't know what the speed limit is. He'll laugh at you and still give you the ticket anyways.
Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean that it's not going to happen. If you choose not to be a part of this community, and add your two cents in, your opinion is going to mean squat. I'm not being elitist, or arrogant. I'm stating a fact."
"If someone doesn't know about the upcoming changes , it is nobodies fault besides their own."
Four different examples. I am not putting words in your mouth.
Yes you are.
The garbage just keeps coming out.
One man's garbage is another man's truth. I don't know how many times I need to say it, I think I'd have better luck trying to communicate this idea to a brick wall rather than you, but here it goes:
If someone CHOOSES not to participate in these boards, it is their own fault if they are caught unawares by upcoming changes.
Patch notes are different, those are pushed into peoples faces by SOE when they try to enter the game. That is information that I am sure SOE considers required reading. If you choose to ignore that, that would be your fault -- like ignoring a speed limit. But not knowing about some upcoming change or opinion of the DEVs because they don't read the forums does not make it their fault because it is NOT required reading, not suggested reading, not part of the game period. The forums are add on content that you can take or leave as you wish.
Ok, so lets hit this so called problem from a different angle. Since it's such an injustice, what solution would you use to remedy it?
As far as a non-issue... you can't even claim that, because you keep saying it is their fault that they don't know. And then you endorse the flaming and attacks when readers new to the forums or the merchant forums ask questions.
It is a non-issue, the issue is getting you to accept that people playing this game have a modicum of personal responsiblity when it comes to finding out information about this game if they choose to.
It shouldn't matter if the question is asked over and over. If you cannot respond politely and constructively, perhaps you shouldn't respond at all.
I'm not the one making snide personal attacks. In fact I've responded in a civil fashion to you and Ewach and been met with nothing but rhetoric and vitriolic comments from you both.
And if they are coming to the forums to find out what is the situation, you should tell them nicely and hope they will do the 'right' thing -- since that is the outcome you are hoping for. But unfortunately, it is the responses to questions in this forum that turns so many people against merchant and into the attitude of "screw them!".
Show me where I've told anyone to screw off. I've answered quite a few of their questions in the past, but to be honest I got tired of doing it at the frequency the questions kept popping up. These boards are a wreck right now, and its all due to the skills issue. I want it fixed to help the boards out almost as much as I do to correct our profession.
And don't bother typing "that is your opinion" anymore. Because get this concept.. everything I write is of course my opinion.
You mean like this:
DragonScout wrote:
I know what suggestions I have made...That are original and geared towards helping/improving the profession. I provide constructive criticism...
Yeah, that's definately your opinion...
You might check the 'can this be addressed w/o being flamed' subject. That is the last place I had suggested some ideas. Also I consider people who defend flamers, just as much at fault as flamers themselves. And, perhaps if there wasn't as much flaming, regardless if the questions are repeated and annoying, more people would be encouraged to read the forums -- since you think it is so important to playing a game.
your words:
"1. Show me where I said reading the boards were required to play the game. Got that? Good "
You say it every single time you claim that players that don't read the boards are at 'fault' for using the mechanisms in game as they are programmed to be used. There is nothing in game to support the idea of vendor poaching being 'wrong'. There is a lot of support FOR it though, from the text in the skill boxes, to the fact that it has been as it is for so long without any change. So when people hear about it being a supposed exploit, they either brush it aside, or come to the forums and ask questions -- and promptly get flamed.
I also don't think that defending flamers is constructive. And if I point out the actions of people like balkstar (who is fairly reformed these days), it is to point out inappropriate behavior. I don't toss eggs, I don't attack posters -- just their ideas, and I don't go out of my way to bash people -- especially for asking innocent questions.
Also.. there is a difference between some posters ideas of being caught off guard. If the DEVs implement the change correctly, it won't be an issue because people won't loose vendors and millions in items. But if they implement the change like some people want, to 'punish' the 'poachers', then yeah, they punish people for not reading the boards, and since the boards are not required reading, that would be wrong in my opinion.
And that is very egotistical of you to say that casual gamers have a personal responsibility to get additional information. It is a load of crap in general. All the information a player should need should be in game, or it is a flaw in the game design. Forums are additional information that a lot of people (read that as "most" because supposedly only a small percentage of people read the forums) choose not to read because it takes away from their enjoyment of playing the game. By saying they have a responsibility to read the forums, you are saying 1) that the game is so poorly designed that you have to continuously read out of game material. and 2) that you are REQUIRED to read the forums. But you say you aren't saying that, so I must be confused.
And comments like "I think I'd have better luck trying to communicate this idea to a brick wall rather than you" or the edited out comment about how you expected a comment like that and what a laugh it was in reference to the post about a crispy kreme speed limit zone. Those seem like personal attacks to me. And those are just the ones I remembered off hand.
Anyways. You might also want to read what I say more closely. Since that seems to be an issue. I never said you said "screw them" I said that was the response of people who get flamed on these boards. And like you reminded me, in other posts you have encouraged and sympathized with people like balkstar who go out of their way to flame people just asking questions. (though like I said.. balkstar has been a lot better lately.)
Anyways. Have fun.
DragonScout wrote:
Nice. Ignore someone after you claim their opinion is invalid to you. Essentially you are saying "I can't prove what I was trying to, and because you pointed it out to me, I will leave, stick my fingers in my ears and shout LALALLALALA, while I only believe what I want to believe." Very mature. Though, it doesn't really bother me if I don't get a response. I never posted to get a response. I post mainly to share my opinion -- which is what the forums are for.
Anyways. Have fun.
DragonScout = TROLL
albeit a seemingly more 'polite' troll, but a troll in any event, much more than myself or Balkstar. At least we can get to the point, where you like to 'troll' about why the sky is blue in support of poaching.
Brick Wall is pretty damn accurate.
/throws quiche for the higher class troll
Instead of coming up with any reasonable arguments to the discussion -- which is pertinate to the sidetracked issue that was brought up by others -- you resort to name calling. Fairly typical for these boards.Call me a troll. It doesn't really bother me, especially since if I went through all the posts and pointed out the very people calling me and p4samwise a troll, it would seem that they are more trollish with their flames and bashing and pointless posts about who is more of a troll. Oh, but wait, only people that can discuss things better than they do for the opposing viewpoint are trolls. Sorry.. I forgot about that.
Who is more a troll? the troll that discusses issues that aren't necessarily agreed upon by the masses? or the troll that goes out of his way to bash and smash and call anyone that disagrees with him a troll?
As far as BE and vendors go... it is a sucky issue. And as it looks now, it isn't going to get any easier. like the last poster said, you really just need to find a RL friend who will pick up merchant for you. Or wait until you can get the second character slot, open it, and set up a merchant on that. Otherwise, your options are pretty limited and require a loss in profits or a lot of trust.