Merchant Archive

Thread: Vendor Poaching -- What is a VIABLE Solution?

Andymantium
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:32 pm
#53

This is a repost from another thread, but since this topic is getting recycled a dozen different ways, I suppose I can copy and paste now and then..

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...what gets merchants all riled up is that many come onto this forum and post in a tone that screams of a "I-don't-have-enough-skill-points-to-be-uber-or-do-what-I-want-and-still-run-a-vendor-so-I'm-going-to-exploit" mentality. Multiply those posts by about 10 per day, and I'm sure you can begin to understand why most of us don't react well to them.

I'm all for discussion on how to improve things, but when 50% of the forum is filled with the above posts, how are we supposed to focus on anything else?



K

Ewach
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:39 pm
#54






Songe wrote:

Seriously, there are some interesting posts on the forums, the problem is that there is at least one new post everyday about people asking if they can drop the skills and keep the vendors and it gets old fast. You prolly haven't looked at the right ones.







Songe - I agree with you - do a search and a dozens (if not more) threads are found.


However, not everyone knows they can search. Some people may have limits (time, bandwidth, perhaps they are on dial up) preventing them from reading through all the messages and seeing what has previously been written.


It is true that, in Doc's stickied merchant guide he has the following entry:





I have all these skills, now what happens if I give them up? Right now due to an oversight in the code it is possible to surrender all of your merchant skills and not lose any vendors or real functionality. You lose the ability to add new vendors, change adbarking or re-register the vendors. But everything continue to work as it did before. The SWG Development Team has confirmed with us that this is not the intended behavior of the game and that it will be fixed in an upcoming publish to require you to maintain your skills in order to continue to operate vendors as a merchant. Until then many merchants consider using vendors without skills to be unfair and would suggest that you don't do it. Let your own conscience be your guide.



However, that may not be an obvious enough place to look for some people. Perhaps that statement should be placed in a thread subject "FAQ: Dropping Skills & Keeping Vendor". Then lock the thread. (If Doc can't lock it himself, surely he can get a forum moderator to lock it). Then sticky the thread.


Voila!The #1 asked (and frequently flamed) question is now sticked at top of the Merchant forum.


If someone misses it, then (rather than throwing eggs, insulting, or ridiculing the person) - DingoBoi or Admantium (or others, if I missed one of the flamers please chime in) could simply reply "Please see the stickied thread entitled...."


Of course, I realize that requires a certain degree of civility which may never be achieved in an open forum, but one can always dream.




SWG Lexicon: "Every Player" Means "Except Crafters"



Ewach - Founder of Travelers Respite on Sunrunner
Located halfway between Anchorhead and Mos Eisley (2180, -4684)
Visit my Shop at (2030, -4660)
Izit_Dedyet
Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:57 pm
#55

The problem is that merchant is broken... We all know how it should work (a Master BE should be able to be a BE and then sell through a merchant) and indeed to an extent so should master crafters, I've had to move my vendors to my alt so I can keep Artisan and Swords (for the looting thing) and be able to legally keep my vendors on the map. That's pretty majorly sucky IMHO.


I really feel for the guys that don't have alt chars that want to sell stuff at the moment, cos to fill out their template in a reasonable manner they end up exploting themerchant profession. Tbh I don't blame them. I'd do it too if I didn't want to keep my vendors after the fix occurs. I feel for the people that don't know the fix is coming in a way, because they've done what the game has allowed them to do and then they are going to get the shock of their lives when they read the update notes and find that the vendors that they've had down for 6 months are suddenly going to go poof...


To come back to the point however.Right nowit's almost impossible to sell through a merchant unless you either 100% trust the merchant or else the merchant is prepared to take a huge gamble on what you have to selland I guess we all have to bare that in mind when responding to people asking these questions.


As things stand you can place a vendor and drop the skill you used to place that vendor, to quote someone (if forget who) on these boards: Yes it's broken, get over it.


Merchant HAS to be fixed properly before that bug is fixed or the whole SWG economy is in deep deep doggy do. Or failing that you have a HUGE number of very peed off players. If I hadn't come here I wouldn't have known that this fix was possibly coming soon and would've cheerfully dropped merchant and run my 6 vendors. The implementation of the fix (without a full merchant revamp) would have seen me click that little 'cancel account' button on the station screen quicker than you could say 'merchant exploit'. And I'll bet I wouldn't be alone...



As suggested above (I checked the thread before I posted this and the comment was added while I was typing) Get a statement stickied to the top of the forum, if someone asks the question post a link to the statement. Don't abuse everyone that drops by...



Izit, Am-i & R-we Dedyet
Ewach
Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:46 pm
#56


Something else that just occurred to me - what about all of the people that do not read the forums?


I think we (the frequent forum users) often tend to forget we represent but a small fraction of the overall SWG player population.


There are those that, for whatever reason, have never even attempted to log into this forum. They are perfectly happy just playing the game, their only conduit for changes being the (sometimes) daily notes on the launchpad and/or the loading screens.


This next scenario is not IN ANY WAY a justification of keeping vendors - merely an attempt at showing more communication (and perhaps clarification) is needed.


So some Artisan back last summer gets a vendor on his way up the skill tree. Perhaps he takes a crafting profession. Sometime later he takes up another profession or two (maybe even upon advice of a holocron).


Eventually, skill point limited, he starts looking to see what he can give up. Reading the EXACT description of the skills "place a vendor", he drops the business line of Artisan (or even merchant skills, if he had them).


Perhaps - and this is very feasible - it never even occurred to him to ask the question "What will happen to my vendor?" as he just assumed it was his to keep. He drops the skill, the vendor remains (confirming his assumption).


Now many months have gone by (6 to 9) and he continues to operate his vendor, selling crafted goods, resources and loot items. He's NEVER been to the forums, doesn't even realize this is a hot topic of discussion.


Questions:


1) How is he supposed to know? There has never been (as far as I can tell) a general announcement, outside of this forum, about what the DEVS "intentions" were with regard to keeping vendors.


2) Is he exploiting? Hard to make that claim. Is it possible to "exploit in ignorance"?


Bottom Line: Look beyond this little fish bowl environment of the forums and consider the bigger picture. Not every "vendor poacher" (your term, not mine) is doing it out of hatred or disrespect for the Merchant profession. There are probably a good number that have never even given it a second thought and are oblivious to the whole discussion.


(Edited for typo - changes in yellow)

Message Edited by Ewach on 06-26-2004 12:47 AM



SWG Lexicon: "Every Player" Means "Except Crafters"



Ewach - Founder of Travelers Respite on Sunrunner
Located halfway between Anchorhead and Mos Eisley (2180, -4684)
Visit my Shop at (2030, -4660)
Ewach
Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:11 am
#57

Well said Malice' - thanks for providing concrete examples of the points I've been trying to make.



SWG Lexicon: "Every Player" Means "Except Crafters"



Ewach - Founder of Travelers Respite on Sunrunner
Located halfway between Anchorhead and Mos Eisley (2180, -4684)
Visit my Shop at (2030, -4660)
LadyMalice
Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:07 pm
#58

Mhal I think everyone here agrees that the change needs to be made, I am sorry that this exploit has rendered the merchant class pretty much useless. The profession deserves the same rights as any other profession...no one disagrees with that. I'm just glad I found out about it and was able to "fix" my own issue with it before my vendor just went poof with only an after-the-fact patch note for explanation. I'm afraid not everyone else who has a vendor (and no merchant skills) will have the same luxury of warning though. I think "ignorance of the law" as you put it, is a valid excuse though, because nowhere in the merchant or business trees does it state that this is a "law", which goes back to the point that a great majority of people do not frequent the forums. Therefore, people do not have any other way of knowing. You cannot fault people for the rules not being set out more clearly, thats a game/dev issue, not a player issue. But I know there are still people who will probably do it out of spite, or because they don't care....but i'm sure that majority is a minute one.



bMalice'b
Master Pistoleer Extraordinaire
vCount the bodies like sheep to the rhythm of the war drumsv

mhal9000
Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:04 pm
#59

I understand most people aren't doing it out of spite, but it still shouldn't be used as an excuse. The forums are here and open for anyone playing the game to check, they can be a great resource when we're not having knock down drag out flame-fests, lol.


What I'm trying to get across is that this info can be freely accessed, so if anyone doesn't know about it, it's their own fault.


I doubt that SOE would arbitrarily wipe out all "poached" vendors being used without giving fair time and warning to rectify the problem. It's just too widespread to make that radical of a change, so here's hoping that the solution that's come up with can be fair and equitable to all involved parties.



Federated Resources
Hork Haggis, Retired

Ewach
Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:18 pm
#60







What I'm trying to get across is that this info can be freely accessed, so if anyone doesn't know about it, it's their own fault.




Sorry - that's PURE BS. The forums are a "valued added" feature (although that's very debatable) of the game.


I have a co-worker that has never been able to register on the forum and I've read of many others that have had that problem. For quite awhile, if you weren't registered you could not even read them.


But, registration problems aside, there all kinds of people playing this game. Are you using broadband service to access the forums? I can just imagine trying to navigate these forums and using dial up speeds.


What about all the people that play and English is not their first language? I don't see a French, Germanor Spanish mirror of all the forum messages.


Stating that "it's their own fault" if they don't know because it was in the forum is forum elitism in its purest form. That statement is not just ignorant, it reeks of arrogance.





SWG Lexicon: "Every Player" Means "Except Crafters"



Ewach - Founder of Travelers Respite on Sunrunner
Located halfway between Anchorhead and Mos Eisley (2180, -4684)
Visit my Shop at (2030, -4660)
mhal9000
Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:06 pm
#61




Ewach wrote:






What I'm trying to get across is that this info can be freely accessed, so if anyone doesn't know about it, it's their own fault.




Sorry - that's PURE BS. The forums are a "valued added" feature (although that's very debatable) of the game.


That's your own opinion, doesn't make it right.


I have a co-worker that has never been able to register on the forum and I've read of many others that have had that problem. For quite awhile, if you weren't registered you could not even read them.


For a while if you weren't playing the game you couldn't read them. Have I had troubles logging in? Yes, but guess what, I can still read the forums, and most times after a little surfing I find myself mystically logged in. Does SOE need to find another type of forum software? Yes, but that's outside the realm of this discussion.


But, registration problems aside, there all kinds of people playing this game. Are you using broadband service to access the forums? I can just imagine trying to navigate these forums and using dial up speeds.


I've read these boards using both broadband and dial up. The dial up is painful, but you can still navigate. If you can play the game using dial up, you'll be able to read the frigging forums.


What about all the people that play and English is not their first language? I don't see a French, Germanor Spanish mirror of all the forum messages.


How do they play the game if they don't know english then? The manuals might be translated buteverything in game is still in english. Poor example and again, outside the realm of this discussion.


Stating that "it's their own fault" if they don't know because it was in the forum is forum elitism in its purest form. That statement is not just ignorant, it reeks of arrogance


It's the truth, plain and simple. Repeat after me, nobody is blocking anyone's access to these forums. Try getting pulled over for speeding and tell the cop it isn't your fault because you didn't know what the speed limit is. He'll laugh at you and still give you the ticket anyways.


Just because you don't know about it, doesn'tmean that it's not going to happen. If you choose not to be a part of this community, and add your two cents in, your opinion is going to mean squat. I'm not being elitist, or arrogant. I'm stating a fact.




Federated Resources
Hork Haggis, Retired

Ewach
Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:22 pm
#62


Repeat after me: "The forums are discusssion boards. They are not official rules nor official game documentation."


To use your same example, I'm driving down the road, past a KrispyKreme,and the speed limit sign says 35 MPH.


I'm doing 35 MPH and get pulled over.


The cop says - oh, didn't you it was "our intent" that you not drive more than 25 MPH in a Krispy Kreme zone. I realize that's what the sign says, but if you ever came into the policeman's lounge and participated in our discussions, you'd know we didn't want you doing the speed limit here.

Message Edited by Ewach on 06-27-2004 08:37 PM



SWG Lexicon: "Every Player" Means "Except Crafters"



Ewach - Founder of Travelers Respite on Sunrunner
Located halfway between Anchorhead and Mos Eisley (2180, -4684)
Visit my Shop at (2030, -4660)
mhal9000
Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:27 pm
#63




Haha!Nice edit job, I should've saved your/addignore mhal9000 reply when I first posted. In response to your new post, here goes:






Repeat after me: "The forums are discusssion boards. They are not official rules nor official game documentation."


So to answer the question about how people are supposed to know about the changes, assuming they don't know about or don't want to use the forums...they can read the patch notes! Where's the problem?


To use your same example, I'm driving down the road, past a KrispyKreme,and the speed limit sign says 35 MPH.


I'm doing 35 MPH and get pulled over.


The cop says - oh, didn't you it was "our intent" that you not drive more than 25 MPH in a Krispy Kreme zone. I realize that's what the sign says, but if you ever came into the policeman's lounge and participated in our discussions, you'd know we didn't want you doing the speed limit here.


No, the example I used was that you were speeding, all you had to do was look over at the speed limit sign, but because you were distracted by something, you didn't. Then when you're pulled over you tell the policeman that it isn't your fault because you were distracted. There was nothing really stopping you from reading the sign, so you still get the ticket.


Repeat after me: Ignorance of the law is still no excuse.


If someone doesn't know about the upcoming changes , it is nobodies fault besides their own.



Let me pose a question. What about people who don't read the patch notes? Who's fault is it if they get blind-sided by changes in the game?


Message Edited by mhal9000 on 06-28-2004 02:40 AM



Federated Resources
Hork Haggis, Retired

mhal9000
Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:21 am
#64






Ewach wrote:


Something else that just occurred to me - what about all of the people that do not read the forums?


I think we (the frequent forum users) often tend to forget we represent but a small fraction of the overall SWG player population.






Ignorance of the law is still no excuse though.



I can see where you're coming from, and I'd love to see a workable consignment system introduced to merchant as a solution, but the plain fact of the matter is this:


Something needs to change, either give everyone the ability to use vendors, and eliminate the profession as a skill tree or take steps to ensure that only merchants are able to place and use vendors (outside of a admin/consignment system).








Federated Resources
Hork Haggis, Retired

DragonScout
Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:14 am
#65

The boards are not required reading to play SWG. Period. End of Story. You cannot argue against it. You do NOT have to read them. Here... let me say it again. You (general you meaning everyone that plays SWG) do NOT have to read the SWG forums to play SWG.

okay.. got that? good.

Now.. show me any proof you can find of where it says in game that vendors are supposed to poof when you drop merchant. If anything, I can show textual evidence from the merchant skill boxes saying that you gain the ability to 'place' vendors.. nothing about maintaining them. And regardless or not if that was the developers intentions, it does nothing to suggest to casual players that they are doing anything wrong.

So stop trying to say players 'should' know.. because there is nothing that requires them to come read the boards.



Zerathi/Shawn -- the grumpy wookiee of Shadowfire
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