Merchant Archive
Thread: Dropping Merchant for now. Do I get to keep my Vendors???
MasterJian
At one time - I was even on the side of - you know guys - if you are gonna fix this bug - you best do it now. It never bothered me THAT much, certainly I never felt it invalidated the class - but I could see problems later - these exact problems. If if had been addressed rapidly - the outcome would be very different. Vendors are tentatively slotted for Pub 11 - which is well over a year after release - THAT is my problem.
MMOs are HARD to predict in some aspects longterm because they are moving targets. You can't predict how change will be accepted in a vacumn because other things also affect a player's perception of the whole, other changes may invalidate something entirely or make the needs different. Individual change is easy, but then has to be balanced with what the perception of the whole is - and also other changes that have been made AT THAT TIME. Goodchanges are also never given full weight. That is the problem with following a 'vision' with blinders on - it makes for a wonderful roadmap - but sometimes the bridge is out and you have to build a new one when ya get there.
SWG is a unique study in a slightly different kind of economic system. The one predicition I made in beta that has yet to come to pass was that by now - we'd be on a primarily barter system - which has historically always happened when gold loses worth. That happens a bit - but not nearly as much as I'd though it would by now - and it made me ask why. Well, the answer I came up with was vendors and the bazaar - the ability to sell without direct face to face contact . The vendor/bazzar system is an interface which only accepts credit and it is convienent. This IMHO is a good thing, yes - the economy is limping along - but gold hasn't totally lost it's worth. The other main factor is of course being crafter centric - not loot centric like EQ was, but the two go hand in hand.
Taking the world as we find it today - I simply went down the list of pros and cons of the various types of players this would affect NOW. If you give those pros and cons weights - it's fairly easy to come up with a number ratio that predicts how a change is going to be perceived. I'm sure this is much the way devs work on their end - but from functionality, not perception. In a perfect world -all sides would balance - or at least not be in harsh conflict - but we don't live in a perfect world, nor are MMOs made by perfect people - or played by perfect people.
If you have a HUGE imbalance, of course the dev's must step in to correct the situation - and it's often not popular - but the sides of the equation balance somewhat. When a system is ALREADY more or less equitably balanced and you go mucking with it without any positives to offset the negative - that's when you upset the applecart - and time IS a factor here - the numbers/weights aren't static, the longer something exists - the bigger the numbers get on the players side of perception if they see it as a positive.
Right now - and since launch, you have players that don't perceive merchant as worth keeping. THAT is the problem - there aren't enough plusses on that side of thebalance sheetfor them to invest points. Whether or not merchant should have had points to expend is really another issue entirely, and yes - I don't think it should have been a class but the reality is - right now, it is. So, how do you tip the scales back and create a carrot (a plus) instead of a stick (a minus).
There is a TON of functionality that needs to go into the merchant class whether or not vendors are ever taken away from those without skill. Those need to be added FIRST. Once the class is perceived to be of value - then this discussion can come up again about revoking the system as is. That puts a LOT more points of desireabilty in the column of merchant - and if this change eventually HAS to be done it won't be resented quite so much. Well, they are making me take it back up - but ya know - if it had been like this before, I might not have given it up in the first place - not so bad I guess. If it's decided THEN that this change is indeed not needed - merchants can stand on their own as a class with enough perks to justify keeping it to those that have it without resentment.
If you are going to cut players off at the knees with an exisiting playstyle - you best give them a soft place to land when they fall - or they fall clean out of the game.
You have to balance the scales and look for the win/win. Right now, things as they exist AREN'T unbalanced. IMHO it's a good thing for folks to have shops and be able to pursue other areas of the game - this is from the viewpoint of - the more people playing, the more customers I (and SOE) have. There ARE a few perks that make merchant worth keeping - I have a master, there just needs to be more.
We could completely remove the Entertainer, Dancer and Musician proffessions and allow medics to heal mind wounds and just get rid of battle fatigue, since they only made that up to give people a reason to need entertainers. We could definately dump tailor, and allow bio tissues to be used in armor.. Really, the only proffessions we would absolutely "need" are those that are combat based..(Fighters, Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, Healers, ya know, the usual..)
Technically true - but the difference with Merchant as a class is as probably originially designed (and as most perceive here) it's designed to be a funnel of MANY classes - a bottleneck. Bottlenecks aren't a good thing in a system that's totally PC craft driven, that's one reason Miner, Farmer and Industrialist got taken out - but yet they left in distribution. Each of those other classes add positives to the speadsheet on more than just their side, that's the main problem with Merchant - they add very little to any other columns as is - and FORCING folks to distribute thru that class is resented because they have so little in their OWN column.
I've certainly never tried to hide my opinion that Merchant should have been dropped in beta, but I've also written at great length about many improvements that could be made to the class to give it some teeth and worth having. I'm simply trying to take a constructive approach to the problem, not just sit back and throw a tantrum, which frankly - many posts in this forum are - tantrums which aren't helpful - nor do they present a very good image of the Merchant to the players at large.
Wire3k wrote:Decay isn't a greedy tailor issue - it's an across the board necessity in ANY game if you want to even have a prayer of an ongoing economy - having a merchant class is not.
While I do for the most part agree with you, that decay is a necessity, and the merchant proffession is not, I would ask you to keep in mind that if we were to re-write this game based on "necessity" we could completely remove the ID proffession and allow players to change their own appearance. We could completely remove the Entertainer, Dancer and Musician proffessions and allow medics to heal mind wounds and just get rid of battle fatigue, since they only made that up to give people a reason to need entertainers. We could definately dump tailor, and allow bio tissues to be used in armor.. Really, the only proffessions we would absolutely "need" are those that are combat based..(Fighters, Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, Healers, ya know, the usual..)That's the basic difference. I really really wish they'd just toss it in the dumpster where it should have gone in betaI'd say you know a whole lot, which is both a blessing and a curse..The problem is that people who tend to be well informed and educated, sometimes have trouble distinguishing between what they know, and what is their opinion.. I've been guilty of that myself many times..
This is the problem where I am coming from...You, and many others, come to the Merchant forum, with a very clear "I wish your proffession didn't exist" attitude from the onset..Now I will start by saying that although I don't agree with your opinion on this matter, I unlike Balkster, do not think you are in some way evil.. I don't believe that you come here to intentionally pick a fight, or rub it in like so many others do.. However, whatever your intention may be, your feeling about this proffession is very clear.. You wish it didn't exist.. There's really no way to compromise, or to discuss the issues, if your mind is set that you wish merchant would get dumped...How can I counter that with something that you will even think of agreeing with, if what you really want is this proffession removed from the game? Make sense? (Results in a lot of pointless headbutting)
- but ya know - what do I know?I keep seeing the argument that so many folks use these for storage. I guess technically I do - since I also sell components I use myself, but they are up for sale for a fair price - I just pull what I need for my own use off when I need to. I rarely see the 'storage' at 99999999 I hear so much about.Well first of all, no I wouldn't say you are guilty of it..You are actually selling a product (unless you use it before someone buys it).. lol... That's not the same thing as those that have no merchant skills whatsoever and have vendors filled with items for storage.. Perhaps you don't see a lot of it, but I do... I see it all the time, as people are bothering less and less to try to hide it.. Of course I think the solution to the storage thing is for them to figure out another way for people to store things, but that's another issue altogether.. Anyway, perhaps on your server people are still doing the hiding the vendor behind an object thing..Interdependency is a nice buzzword - but it needs to be from choice. Forcing players to do anything they perceive as necessary always takes a backseat to making them WANT to do it.
This is an MMO, unfortunately that means a vast portion of the players have NO desire to cooperate with anyone.. If there's a way to do it alone, it will be done to death, if there is a weakness to exploit, it will be exploited to death, all for the glory of being the great uber one, which is a ridiculous concept when you think about it, considering what this is supposed to be..Nonetheless, if it were realistic to make interdependancy a matter of choice, they could have left out skill points and let everyone, be as many proffessions as they wanted.. Yes, I'm sure some people would choose to depend on others rather then grinding every proffession and making everything themselves, but given your experience with online gaming communites, I'm sure you must realize what a disaster that would be.. Sometimes interdependancy needs a lil push, and in this case, the vendor situation gives a lil push in the wrong direction IMO..
And you are right - I have no idea how anyone functions with just one account - I have three - anyone can have multiple accounts, and you can bet your boots that they count on it for their bottom line. Problem is - when multiple accounts walk - it hurts a LOT more than just one. They go thru with this you will have two basic types of players - hardcore which will get another account - and those not so hardcore which finally figure out SOE really doesn't want their business.What fuels interdependcy more than necessity - is time, a player's time. I sell lots of stuff that my customers could easily make themselves - it's just faster and easier to get it from me already done. They don't HAVE to buy from me - they WANT to buy from me. That's the carrot instead of a stick. New crafters anywhere - at anytime are NEVER going to have an easy go on an established server - that's just life, it's possible - but it's not going to be as easy a ride for them as on a new server.
Oh I agree completely.. But, nonetheless, the "playing field" for those trying to start a business without exploiting vendors is not level.. That was the point I was making.What they need to do short of nuking the entire class is acknowledge that it was meant to be a skill point sink from the get-go and let people make a choice. Give up the skill - keep their merchants that they did in fact earn, and do something more fullfilling ingame like so many are currently doing - or - let folks keep it if they feel the functionality is worth it in the perks - and definately tons of tools could be added to make it even more worth it.Like I've said before - personally, besides losing business because SOE WILL lose customers, this won't affect my shop that much vendorwise. If they put insane item limits on vendors so I can't run my shop efficently and effectively I will no longer have any reason to play or pay - period, the end.Same here..Although many that post in these threads are quick to point out other avenues for sales for nonmerchants - I also see numerous threads on this board resenting the hell out of ANYONE but a merchant selling ANYTHING.That puts a stranglehold on every crafting class in the game or anyone that really wants to sell anything at all. NO one class - especially one that's as tiny as merchant has a right to do that to so many other players.Hmmm.. There are some that feel that way.. Right now so many of the strong members of the merchant proffession have been driven away, that only the most hardcore of merchants have withstood the test of time on this one I'm afraid.. And, even many of them have become acquiescent.. Whether certain people choose to play the role of victim or not, the reality is that the merchants really have in many ways been beaten into the ground..We have always been a small, but strong community, but there really aren't that many of us left.. I think right now there are more people visiting our boards that are non merchants.. Most of them are quite frankly vultures, swooping down to see if we are dead yet.. We get people stopping by to ask us for advice on how best to exploit our proffession, or we get those that come here to argue with us why we should not exist.. Then there are those that just get a kick out of watching us struggle, and rubbing it in.. Whatever the case may be, at one time we were a strong community, and even then, way back in the beginning, we generally didn't want to prevent crafters from selling their products.. We have always wanted nothing more then for the tools and perks of selling to be merchant exclusive.. I don't think that's unreasonable..I swear - they keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory right and left, so chin up - you'll probably get your way.I sincerely doubt it.. I can't say I have the resume of MMO experience that you have, but from what I've seen of the way things generally tend to work, they will probably post the "tentative changes" somewhere other then the merchant forum (without telling our correspondant), people will throw a fit, and completely refuse to compromise in any way, until they change their minds.. Then they will take it back, and leave it sit for 8 or 9 more months until those of us still hanging on finally give up.. Then perhaps you will get your way, and we will get "tossed in the dumpster"..But then again, perhaps I've just become jaded.. Whatever the case may be, I sincerely doubt that anyone on either side of this argument is going to change their minds.. Unfortunately "inflexible zealotry" seems to run steadily on both sides of the argument..
Balkstar wrote:Relaxin:You are right, I have not made any more requests to add functionality, because this is such a fundimental flaw in my profession, that I feel it needs to be fixed first and foremost.I have been a strong proponent of the fix and enhancement list that Doc has submitted to the Devs. There are a lot of great ideas from bright people that have been put to the devs for implmentation to help my broken profession. I hope that many do make it to Merchant someday.As long as others try to take advantage of the Merchant profession, I will continue to fight the good fight, no matter what snide comments are leveled at me.
On a wider note: I believe we are focused on the different sides of the MMORPG. If it may be safe to point that you are focused on the MM aspect of the acronym and see it as just in forcing players to interact with each other regardless of their desire. To paraphrase, "in an online game you should be required to interact with one another." I find myself on the G side of that acronym in that the game should be as to maximize enjoyment from the players perspective. I see the MM as a subset, and I'm not opposed to reward those that interact with others more than those that choose to do things alone. ie. If one chooses to solo combat, no problem, exp can be gained, foes can be chosen and vanquished, however if one chooses to group for combat, then they should have greater rewards, higher level opposition, better loot, etc. Regardless, that choice of level of interaction with other players should be left to the player, not merchants, not devs, not anyone.
My interpretation of the fundamental flaw to the merchant profession as it exists is that it does not try to facilitate commercial interaction between the players, it seeks to control it. The idea of monopolistic control over trade goes against the laissez-faire paradigm the game economy has and should not be allowed. Not only would your model go against the ideal of what a merchant is around for, but it is impractical to commerce within the game.
I would have no problems if merchants could sell me a vendor, even with decay, or any number of limitations on it. But as I see your argument, you would have no other way to have vendors without permanently investing skill points in merchant/artisan. Vendors should be a commodity like any other item created by players.
Until some massive change occurs to the merchant profession, I choose to accept the way as the game is and continue along, vendors in tow. Adapt and thrive or fail to survive.
Last thing, do yourself a favor and take advantage of the spell check, your spelling is atrocious.
Orew wrote:
The game works as designed, the vendors work for you as long as they are payed.
There are some individuals on this forum whoshould think more about improving the profession instead of putting their noses in other people's business.
No...that is an argument that isn't going to fly any longer. It was never intended to work that way. It is a design flaw that is being exploited. You can debate the merit of the design all you want however it was designed that merchants and those with Business III would be the sole "managers" of vendors.
DocSavag wrote:
Orew wrote:
The game works as designed, the vendors work for you as long as they are payed.
There are some individuals on this forum whoshould think more about improving the profession instead of putting their noses in other people's business.
No...that is an argument that isn't going to fly any longer. It was never intended to work that way. It is a design flaw that is being exploited. You can debate the merit of the design all you want however it was designed that merchants and those with Business III would be the sole "managers" of vendors.
You beat me to the punch, Doc. I was going to say that sniping like this was not going to fly, especially with your recent post that put SOE's answer to that direct question. It's obvious that he only chooses to read posts that agree with his position.
raelintorthal wrote:
I dont think some of you are looking deep enough. Trying to argue how the game was designed and thus is it a bug, exploit or just bad programming. Look a little deeper at the folks who are telling the devs what to do. The people that can't write a line of code. They're staring at a game thats bleeding customers in waves....and thats WITHOUT any new competition to speak of yet (City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, Matrix Online, EQ2...still to come just to name a few).
Now look at the number of people in the game that are crafters (witha secondary skillother than merchant), and the number of true "Merchants" out there. They are not going to "poof" hundreds of thousands of items on vendors to "get even" with the people that dropped merchant.
From an in-game standpoint...you'd lose well over half the crafters in the game from a knee-jerk 'quit' reaction. The economy of the game would be thrown into the gutter.
From a real-life standpoint....SOE can't afford losing that many players. My guess is somebody in SOE (at least one person) is losing sleep every night, sweating over the upcoming next 6 months to 1 year release schedule of MMOs. At least they should be.
I've seen some suggestions that would probably work...without a 'big poof' senario, but then all those crafters are going to half to decide for themselves if playing a game where you are PURELY a crafter (meaning you pick one prof weaponsmith/DE/arch/chef) and burn up the rest of your SP on merchant skills is worth playing...much less PAYING $15 a month for.
After being a master WS/Tailor/DE/Artisan for the past 6-7 months my guess is...most are going to say 'no'. And we're back to the fact that SOE can't afford that answer.
For what it's worth. I believe merchant should be a utility skill....and please no one come back with a remark like "well if I drop pistoleer I should be able to keep all my skills then" comment, because last I checked pistoleer didn't CHARGEA MAINTENANCE FEE to keep your skills. When they stop charging maintenance on vendors....then we'll talk.
Heck, I believe master doctors should be able to 'hire' npc medics to be placed in player med centersto service customers, and make the maintenance charge equal to the level of medic. Same goes for 'hiring' entertainers for npc cantinas...so that 90% of these places wouldn't be worthless.
Anyway...just my thoughts....I welcome any comments (except from Balkstar....cause he's proved he's an idiot in this thread alone).
Raelin
Master Weaponsmith/Droid Engineer/Artisan....and Biowear maker.
Radiant
You know, I'm really getting sick of this argument that about crafters feeling the need to steal my professions vendors to protest SOE about creating a profession that they abhore, and screwing the people who want to play in said profession. They seem to be so small minded, as they really can't think about playing out-of-the box. This may be because they are all veterans of other MMORPGs, where the lines of crafters and merchants were non-existant.
Now SOE decides to throw a new dynamic into the game and crafters cry foul. How dare SOE introduce something as new and radical as a dedicated merchant class. It has so upset the crafters perceived balance that other games have forged. And now they steal from other players to protest SOE for not playing within their own perceived rules? What crap. What narrow vision on the part of these greedy crafters.
Quit threatening to leave. If you are going to leave, leave. Don't make a pagent out of it.
I have been hearing this other false charge about how I would love to take over the entire economy. Far from. The merchant class is desolate, vacant of anyone.I would love to have my profession filled with other merchants that would love to sell wares from a variety of soarces. A true free market. Not some corrupt system run by greedy, self serving scum-lord crafters that have bugs up their butts.
Oh, and Raelin? Nothing but love for you. BTW, try and find a worthwhile point to argue on.
Hey now there's a thought hiring npc docs and ents when they are not available.i don't know how many times i have had to gp through space travel just to heal some wounds. PersonallyI am a Master Smuggler xxx MasterMerchant xxxI am currently scared to give up Merchant due to the uncertentaties in the game and I have thousands of items for sale on my vendors. So for now i just dabble in the other proffessions.... ohhhh lol =-P here's a PLUGGG for my shop...
Valcyn Server, Naboo, Valshara
The absolute best in Smuggler tools, Great Resources in the 100K's and coming soon Turrets, Bases and other Imperial Faction Items....
Balkstar wrote:
You know, I'm really getting sick of this argument that about crafters feeling the need to steal my professions vendors to protest SOE about creating a profession that they abhore, and screwing the people who want to play in said profession. They seem to be so small minded, as they really can't think about playing out-of-the box. This may be because they are all veterans of other MMORPGs, where the lines of crafters and merchants were non-existant.
Now SOE decides to throw a new dynamic into the game and crafters cry foul. How dare SOE introduce something as new and radical as a dedicated merchant class. It has so upset the crafters perceived balance that other games have forged. And now they steal from other players to protest SOE for not playing within their own perceived rules? What crap. What narrow vision on the part of these greedy crafters.
Quit threatening to leave. If you are going to leave, leave. Don't make a pagent out of it.
I have been hearing this other false charge about how I would love to take over the entire economy. Far from. The merchant class is desolate, vacant of anyone.I would love to have my profession filled with other merchants that would love to sell wares from a variety of soarces. A true free market. Not some corrupt system run by greedy, self serving scum-lord crafters that have bugs up their butts.
Oh, and Raelin? Nothing but love for you. BTW, try and find a worthwhile point to argue on.
I asked you in another thread what was going to happen when this change backfires in your face, I even provided a nifty little flowchart of what *I* think will happen - at least partially. You haven't responded in that thread on www.swgbio.com/merchant.htm but I'd like to see even you justify that massive a change to the mechanics of the economy.
One aspect I didn't even touch on in that flowchart is the bazaar effect. As many have pointed out, if that's the only place to sell - it doesn't have enough flexibility to cover most master goods - however some WILL use it - thereby destablizing what little economy is limping along even more.
You think you are in a vacant profession - well gee - let's just fry the entire userbase because Balk feels marginalized sitting there all alone by himself. Golly, for someone that likes to fly the high moral ground flag - that certainly seems lacking to me.
Balkstar wrote:
I have been hearing this other false charge about how I would love to take over the entire economy. Far from. The merchant class is desolate, vacant of anyone.I would love to have my profession filled with other merchants that would love to sell wares from a variety of soarces. A true free market. Not some corrupt system run by greedy, self serving scum-lord crafters that have bugs up their butts.
A closed economy run by a select few is not a free market system, that would be a CARTEL. The system as it is now more resembles a true laissez-faire economy, where ANYONE can choose to be an independent firm, freely selling their goods without interference. Get a dictionary, better yet take econ 101 again, perhaps you may have something worthwhile to say rather than spew this pathetic passive-aggressive behavior, feel bad for me because I'm a victim nonsense. Last thing, "soarces" isn't a word, sources is. Not only are you a petty dictator wanna-be, you're too lazy to use spellcheck.
MasterJian wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
fwiw that is my biggest fear. I don't want this arguement to go on for another 8 months. I want closure on it.
Honestly that's about where I am coming from too.. I really think there has to be a solution, that will at least appease both sides a little bit.. Well, let me rephrase that.. I really think there has to be a solution that will at least appease those on both sides that are reasonable.. I know there are some people that won't budge in the least on both sides.. I just want to see this resolved, and yes I know you do too.. And, I know you are doing your best, and I thank you for that..
Relaxin- I do understand your point about control.. I guess I really think a lot more could be accomplished if people were actually willing to discuss the issue, instead of having flame wars.. Deliberately antagonizing us isn't going to help the situation.. Nor is wishing someone to die because they strongly disagree with you in a very vigourous and perhaps inflexible way about a game.. Yes, there are merchants that antagonize the non merchants too, but if you read through the boards, which I'm sure you do, you've no doubt noticed the situation on these boards.. Yes, we are beginning to get defensive, no that's not an excuse for unnecessary flaming, but yes there is a good reason for us to be feeling a bit touchy at the moment.. Anyway, for what it's worth, I do understand what you are getting at, and I do understand your frustration with Balkster, just as I understand his frustration with you... Just my two creds..
I can be completely civil and have a constructive debate if someone is willing to accede to similar premises. However, once someone decides to go to the gutter and start calling others names, well, I guess I have enough skill with this language that I can easily throw back filth without fail.
As for wishing death upon anyone in particular, I have no remorse at all as to making such sentiment known, I have and will continue to believe zealousy is a destructive and worthless endeavor. When someone refuses to offer positive input to a problem, that person becomes a problem, and if their death is a solution, then so be it.
I really wish more of the "hardcore" people in each profession would choose to make suggestions to improving their professions rather than slamming "tourists" that take advantage of the profession, and merchant is hardly the only profession in this game that is being abused/exploited. What good does being inflexible and calling those people names actually gain? Some notion of a moral high ground? Ridiculous, this game is amoral, it equally suits poor behavior as much as it does good behavior. Once someone loses the ability to be objective, any point made by them has to viewed as suspect and flawed.
I'll call them two bits and raise the bar two more with the hope of actually inviting a real discussion on ways to address the flaws of the profession