Merchant Archive
Thread: Dropping Merchant for now. Do I get to keep my Vendors???
Wire3k wrote:
Iasked you in another thread what was going to happen when this change backfires in your face, I even provided a nifty little flowchart of what *I* think will happen - at least partially. You haven't responded in that thread on www.swgbio.com/merchant.htm but I'd like to see even you justify that massive a change to the mechanics of the economy.
One aspect I didn't even touch on in that flowchart is the bazaar effect. As many have pointed out, if that's the only place to sell - it doesn't have enough flexibility to cover most master goods - however some WILL use it - thereby destablizing what little economy is limping along even more.
You think you are in a vacant profession - well gee - let's just fry the entire userbase because Balk feels marginalized sitting there all alone by himself. Golly, for someone that likes to fly the high moral ground flag - that certainly seems lacking to me.
The only thing in the arguement on your website that I congratulate you on is that you know how to use Visio. Congratulations.
Now as for the exact content of the agument, you sorely lack true facts. I'm glad you put the disclaimer about how it is your vision, because frankly its off the wall. There is a good point that the organizational charts do point out. That is, the utter monoply "cartel"that crafters have in direct sales to the customer as it currently works now. No doubt this comes from the stealing of precious skills from the merchant profession.
Your dooms day scenario, however, lacksmany points.
1> You forgot to add more pretty, little Merchant boxes where just that lonely one exists.Nature abhors vacuums, as does a true Supply-Demand market economy. Where one sees an oppertunity to profit, one will enter the marketto take advantage.Supply goes up, prices go down, the consumer saves. In the patch that comes up, I'm sure we will see a huge influx of players in the Merchant profession, so buck-up!! Bottle-neck averted.
2>You forgot to add nice little lines to theAdvertisingboxdirectly from the Crafter boxes. You seem to think that once many of the advertising avenues will finally be the exclusive right of the Merchant profession (as they were intended), that players will lose all will to advertise in other ways. I'm sure you are too tired and old to think outside the box, but I believe that some creative merchants will find ways to drive customers in to their places of business, whether it be special events, tells directly to specific parties, spamming at Coronet... The list goes on and on. Lack of advertising catastrophe averted.
3>You forgot to add that title of Merchants to some of the Vendor boxes too. You know there are a few crafters out there that take advantages of everything that the Merchant professionhas to offer legally. All they need to do is allocate the skill points to the merchant tree, or even Business 3 forGod sakes, and POOF!!Instant merchant tools at one's fingertips. Lack of Merchant tools for crafters averted.
4>You forgot to keep the lines going directly from the consumer to the crafters. This kind of falls in line with pointstwo and three, but I think it should be separate, as not all crafters want to utilize the mechants tools, but are willing to use ingenious ways to sell products despite it. There are many ways of direct selling without ever having to dealing with a vendor, but I guess with an old view of the world that you have, I guess you would be blind to such ways. Direct sales to consumers controversy averted.
It's pretty simple. The chart is flawed. The big apacolypse you keep shouting about will never happen. About the only thing that will happen will be your insesent whining about how this profession should never have been made. Stop growing old and GROW UP!!!
relaxin wrote:
A closed economy run by a select few is not a free market system, that would be a CARTEL. The system as it is now more resembles a true laissez-faire economy, where ANYONE can choose to be an independent firm, freely selling their goods without interference. Get a dictionary, better yet take econ 101 again, perhaps you may have something worthwhile to say rather than spew this pathetic passive-aggressive behavior, feel bad for me because I'm a victim nonsense. Last thing, "soarces" isn't a word, sources is. Not only are you a petty dictator wanna-be, you're too lazy to use spellcheck.
I believe that I've already proved the point as to where the cartel is, currently,from my posting above. If you noticed the utter lack of merchants, while the complete glut of crafters controlling the economy. Hmmm... text book cartel if I ever saw one. This whole arguement of the utter lack of freedom to be an independent firm because crafters will lack another professions tools is utter crap made up by small minds. You can't think of trying to find ways of selling items without having to work with a Merchant. You are sadder than I thought.
And as for this obsession with my spelling in posts, did you have an intimate affair with your Speak-and-Spell in your childhood? Here's a trip down memory lane for you: "Spell idiot. R-E-L-A-X-I-N. Nice Going!!"
Message Edited by Balkstar on 04-28-2004 09:31 AM
Balkstar wrote:
Now as for the exact content of the agument, you sorely lack true facts. I'm glad you put the disclaimer about how it is your vision, because frankly its off the wall. There is a good point that the organizational charts do point out. That is, the utter monoply "cartel"that crafters have in direct sales to the customer as it currently works now. No doubt this comes from the stealing of precious skills from the merchant profession.
Your dooms day scenario, however, lacksmany points.
1> You forgot to add more pretty, little Merchant boxes where just that lonely one exists.Nature abhors vacuums, as does a true Supply-Demand market economy. Where one sees an oppertunity to profit, one will enter the marketto take advantage.Supply goes up, prices go down, the consumer saves. In the patch that comes up, I'm sure we will see a huge influx of players in the Merchant profession, so buck-up!! Bottle-neck averted.
2>You forgot to add nice little lines to theAdvertisingboxdirectly from the Crafter boxes. You seem to think that once many of the advertising avenues will finally be the exclusive right of the Merchant profession (as they were intended), that players will lose all will to advertise in other ways. I'm sure you are too tired and old to think outside the box, but I believe that some creative merchants will find ways to drive customers in to their places of business, whether it be special events, tells directly to specific parties, spamming at Coronet... The list goes on and on. Lack of advertising catastrophe averted.
3>You forgot to add that title of Merchants to some of the Vendor boxes too. You know there are a few crafters out there that take advantages of everything that the Merchant professionhas to offer legally. All they need to do is allocate the skill points to the merchant tree, or even Business 3 forGod sakes, and POOF!!Instant merchant tools at one's fingertips. Lack of Merchant tools for crafters averted.
4>You forgot to keep the lines going directly from the consumer to the crafters. This kind of falls in line with pointstwo and three, but I think it should be separate, as not all crafters want to utilize the mechants tools, but are willing to use ingenious ways to sell products despite it. There are many ways of direct selling without ever having to dealing with a vendor, but I guess with an old view of the world that you have, I guess you would be blind to such ways. Direct sales to consumers controversy averted.
It's pretty simple. The chart is flawed. The big apacolypse you keep shouting about will never happen. About the only thing that will happen will be your insesent whining about how this profession should never have been made. Stop growing old and GROW UP!!!
The chart is designed to show the CHANGES. Merchants already have a broader base thru advertising. The fact that that PERK is still allowed, and that I have repeatedly stated I have no objections whatsoever about being revoked is what the chart presents.
Crafters that are also merchants NOW share opportunity lines as both merchant and crafter, but they aren't the ones you really object to are they.(Actually they are - but you only let that slip every now and then - I smell your next crusade).
I am indeed old, quite grown, thank you very much. But the only thing making me tired right now is your little persecution complex and total lack of appreciation you seem to have of the potential impact this will have on the game - gamewide. You don't CARE. You've stated many times you don't care what the heck it does to anyone else - or even the game. You have stated before you worked for an unsuccessful game, if you exhibited this kind of foresight there, it's a pity when any game fails, but frankly I'm not surprised. This really isn't rocket science, it's common sense. At this point I'm wondering if you have enough of that to pour it out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. I've tried my best to offer constructive positive changes and present the predictable outcomes if this is pursued as you would like.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on simply being passionate and not understanding. I've come to the conclusion you do understand and are just a stubborn fool that is no longer worth my time or effort to address. The nice thing about age is that it gives experience. The past can shed light on the future. You don't want to try to grasp that - fine.
I'll grant - this is a worse case scenario, but none of it is good. If even a little bit of it is accurate (and my gut tells me it's a lot more than a little bit) it's a bad change, it's bad for the economy, it's bad for player satisfaction, it's bad for interdependency. Your best economic model comes from having as many points of contact to as many other points of contact as possible. There are far too many classes and far too little player time for everyone to be able to do everything even if it was possible.
SWG at this point has spent every dime of goodwill they ever had with their userbase. They don't have the luxury of this kind of change - with this timing - without any official stance on it for all these months. Believe it or not - at this point I don't particularly care.
Wire3k wrote:
Crafters that are also merchants NOW share opportunity lines as both merchant and crafter, but they aren't the ones you really object to are they.(Actually they are - but you only let that slip every now and then - I smell your next crusade).
Wrong. I object to the crafters that feel the need to steal from a profession they don't have skill points invested in. When they turn out to be full time merchants with skill points fully invested, I will welcome them with open arms to our little, but growing profession. There is no need for me to be a conduit for everyone's trade. The ranks of the profession have room to grow. I want other people to join our profession. I want competition.
I don't wantservers full of exploiters. Right now thats what I have.
I am indeed old, quite grown, thank you very much. But the only thing making me tired right now is your little persecution complex and total lack of appreciation you seem to have of the potential impact this will have on the game - gamewide. You don't CARE. You've stated many times you don't care what the heck it does to anyone else - or even the game. You have stated before you worked for an unsuccessful game, if you exhibited this kind of foresight there, it's a pity when any game fails, but frankly I'm not surprised. This really isn't rocket science, it's common sense. At this point I'm wondering if you have enough of that to pour it out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel. I've tried my best to offer constructive positive changes and present the predictable outcomes if this is pursued as you would like.
You misinterperet my role in that unsuccessful game. I was no more than a server operator. I was able to look at the devs first hand and see what they cooked up and how they prioritized issues in the game. At no time did I have developmental input into the game, which gave me a unique look at the game as a whole. Do not for a minute believe that myjob withthat game had anything to do with its downfall.
Basing your constructive changes off a deciteful act is really not how I'm interested in growing the game. They may look fine and dandy for deceitful craftersso that they can pat themselves on the back, but to me its nothing but crocodile tears, I'm sorry to say.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt on simply being passionate and not understanding. I've come to the conclusion you do understand and are just a stubborn fool that is no longer worth my time or effort to address. The nice thing about age is that it gives experience. The past can shed light on the future. You don't want to try to grasp that - fine.
I understand too well how SOE has srewed us by not being apathetic to the Merchants cause and allowing this to fester all this time to the point where it becomes a ho-hum subject. My goal is to stir the issue back up and to le them know that the issue still rubs Merchants raw. I understand that diehard exploiters will cry foul and drive away from the game in droves. Personally, I believe that they, who from the minute they get the vendors from the Merchant profession and not ask the internal question "Is this really the right thing to do?" as soon as they drop the skill points from Merchant, don't add anything useful to the game. They think like expoiters. They act like exploiters. They are exploiters. And they will take away from someone else's fun in the game when it suits them without a moments hesitation. "If it walks like a duck..."
I am a student of history. I know that what is left to fester will grow and will be harder to control in the future unless acted upon wth diligence. SOE should have thought like that, but its obvious they didn't. Now is the time to right the wrongs.
Patches and hotfixes to the game help at least quell the exploiting tendency of players. Once in place, balance will be restored. The Doom and Gloom you keep forcasting will will fade away in that whole "remember when?..."
I'll grant - this is a worse case scenario, but none of it is good. If even a little bit of it is accurate (and my gut tells me it's a lot more than a little bit) it's a bad change, it's bad for the economy, it's bad for player satisfaction, it's bad for interdependency. Your best economic model comes from having as many points of contact to as many other points of contact as possible. There are far too many classes and far too little player time for everyone to be able to do everything even if it was possible.
Let me guess. You haven't tried to reach out to others even before the patch has been put into place.There is no time like the present to engage people to the changes ahead. Make people aware that this is coming and that the best way to deal with it is to prepare now. Don't banter around like nothing good is going to take place with it. Thereis good with this patch. As a merchant, embrace it.
SWG at this point has spent every dime of goodwill they ever had with their userbase. They don't have the luxury of this kind of change - with this timing - without any official stance on it for all these months. Believe it or not - at this point I don't particularly care.
Balkstar wrote:I believe that I've already proved the point as to where the cartel is, currently,from my posting above. If you noticed the utter lack of merchants, while the complete glut of crafters controlling the economy. Hmmm... text book cartel if I ever saw one. This whole arguement of the utter lack of freedom to be an independent firm because crafters will lack another professions tools is utter crap made up by small minds. You can't think of trying to find ways of selling items without having to work with a Merchant. You are sadder than I thought.
And as for this obsession with my spelling in posts, did you have an intimate affair with your Speak-and-Spell in your childhood? Here's a trip down memory lane for you: "Spell idiot. R-E-L-A-X-I-N. Nice Going!!"
Message Edited by Balkstar on 04-28-2004 09:31 AM
your ignorance of economic terminology is only matched by an equally ridiculous usage of circular logic. you fool, simple open entry into the marketplace makes it a free market. where relatively few actors effect control over markets are cartels. to say you proved your own point is using circular logic, the tool of every aspiring tinpot dictator, which you have so far failed at doing among a number of any other things i'm sure. your pathetic attempts to call me and everyone else here names also reeks of immaturity and lack of character. as to my obsession with your lack of english spelling skills, i only need to inform you, although it is sure to sail clear over your liliputian intellect, is that if you are not even willing to make corrections in your own points, one would be less inclined to take them seriously, but worry not, no one does anyway. moron.
Wow about halfway through this everyone started to get along and then poof it went a way. The merchant class is a hard one to define and its intent I think is a good one. But it obviously needs some changes to make it more of a business oriented class.
As far as keeping vendors after you drop merchant, well I think it is wrong, from the simple standpoint of it being skill based. You earn the XP, you pay the SP and you get vendors, when you drop that you should lose it. Just because people are used to it being screwed up is no excuse for letting it persist. Its like saying well people are going to use drugs anyway, so why should we keep arresting them. OK maybe that is a stretch, but in principle and in the game, this is the only profession where you get to keep skills after you drop the profession. Granted the vendors are more like structures, but do Master Entertainers get to keep their cantinas after they drop them? I'm not sure, but I dont think they do.
Unfortunately, vendors are a necessity to the elite crafter becauseit is the only place you can sell things for the price you want. I personally think everyone with something to sell should have that option. But finding a way to tie it into merchants is a good option. The idea of selling vendors is a good one. Instead of it being a maintenance fee, make it a fee paid to the merchant. The more vendors the merchant can sell the more money they get. Vendors are really just employees that you hire to sell stuff for you, anyone should be able to hire someone for anything, but to sell your stuff you need an employee with some business sense, enterthe merchant. The merchant would act sort of like a temp agency or job placement company.
After reading through all the debates I have very mixed feelings about the solution. I still feel strongly that if you drop merchant you should drop your vendors. But putting thoudands of crafters out of business is going to be shockwave bigger than any previous nerf. Although I think the playerbase would rebound, it is a huge inconvenience to the players. SOE has let this go on and they need to come up with a practical solution that will be amenable to everyone, while making the merchant profession stronger. The fact is every player should have a market for their goods that they can access independently (the solo player) and merchants should be rewarded for having the business savvy to sell things and the tools to do that with.
Balkstar wrote:Fortunately, I don't understand Dorkish, otherwise after reading your post, I think I would have felt a anger coming from you, Relaxin.
From that utter confusion of insults that was just spewed, I think I did pick up something about a "cartel"
Cartel: n : a consortium of companies formed to limit competition.
A cartel does exist in the game. Itexistsin the form of crafters that limit another professions capability to exist in order to gain control of a market. It is done by removing a competetive advantage inate to another profession. How is this done? These crafters make the point of keeping skill points dedicated to a profession utterly useless. That tool, the vendor, was meant by SOE to be the exclusive domain of a profession, and through crafters contrivance and SOE's lack of control, nowbecomes a common tool for any profession created by a bug in the game. This type of activity in a game is known as exploiting. Crafters get the added benifit FOR FREE of the said tools. The affected profession wilts away, as the excusive advantage of being in the profession is non-existant. Playerslook to other professions to survive in the game.The only ones left to sell are the crafters, thus limiting competition.
In summary, crafters exploit a bug to remove a portion of the population's ability to effectively compete in the sales of goods. In other words, a text book cartel.
Dude. Take note of your namesake and just chill. You'll blow a gasket. I know you must feel frustrated because your nice little vendor friends will all bedestroyed once SOE cleans house.
Message Edited by Balkstar on 04-30-2004 12:53 PM
I feel for your inability to read english above a grade school level. To make it clear for your small intellect to understand, you are an idiot. More specifically a closed minded idiot. Mocking your ideas and pointing out your intellectual fallacies brings me great happiness and joy. Clear enough for you?
If a group of individuals, say the merchant profession, were to be able to exercise control over a majority of the commercial transactions in the economy, that IS a cartel. As it is now, entry into the marketplace of goods in the economy is open to anyone willing to make a vendor and keeping maintenance on it. I'm sure that was a big first step for you to actually look up a definition in the dictionary, apparently, understanding it's meaning is too much to ask of you.
Crafters don't get the merchants for free, they obviously spent time getting the vendors, and continue to pay maintenance on it. Your inane argument that you have somehow been robbed or been made the object of an injustice is still wrong no matter how many times you claim otherwise. Call it a bug or exploit or whatever, it's in the game. If someone wanted it fixed, it would have been. I continue to be amused by your waiting for the messianic day where all non-merchant vendors will be wiped off the game scape. One day you say, one day. HA! Keep praying. Until then me and my happy vendors will continue mocking your idiocy. Have fun wallowing in your loathing rage!
relaxin wrote:
your ignorance of economic terminology is only matched by an equally ridiculous usage of circular logic. you fool, simple open entry into the marketplace makes it a free market. where relatively few actors effect control over markets are cartels. to say you proved your own point is using circular logic, the tool of every aspiring tinpot dictator, which you have so far failed at doing among a number of any other things i'm sure. your pathetic attempts to call me and everyone else here names also reeks of immaturity and lack of character. as to my obsession with your lack of english spelling skills, i only need to inform you, although it is sure to sail clear over your liliputian intellect, is that if you are not even willing to make corrections in your own points, one would be less inclined to take them seriously, but worry not, no one does anyway. moron.
Fortunately, I don't understand Dorkish, otherwise after reading your post, I think I would have felt a anger coming from you, Relaxin.
From that utter confusion of insults that was just spewed, I think I did pick up something about a "cartel"
Cartel: n : a consortium of companies formed to limit competition.
A cartel does exist in the game. Itexistsin the form of crafters that limit another professions capability to exist in order to gain control of a market. It is done by removing a competetive advantage inate to another profession. How is this done? These crafters make the point of keeping skill points dedicated to a profession utterly useless. That tool, the vendor, was meant by SOE to be the exclusive domain of a profession, and through crafters contrivance and SOE's lack of control, nowbecomes a common tool for any profession created by a bug in the game. This type of activity in a game is known as exploiting. Crafters get the added benifit FOR FREE of the said tools. The affected profession wilts away, as the excusive advantage of being in the profession is non-existant. Playerslook to other professions to survive in the game.The only ones left to sell are the crafters, thus limiting competition.
In summary, crafters exploit a bug to remove a portion of the population's ability to effectively compete in the sales of goods. In other words, a text book cartel.
Dude. Take note of your namesake and just chill. You'll blow a gasket. I know you must feel frustrated because your nice little vendor friends will all bedestroyed once SOE cleans house.
Message Edited by Balkstar on 04-30-2004 12:53 PM