Merchant Archive
Thread: Dropping Merchant for now. Do I get to keep my Vendors???
Wire3k wrote:
Balkstar
"Dude" - there isn't a conspiracy around every corner and you really need to see someone about this victimization complex.
It's nice you're running a little shop out in the boonies somewhere for your buds - but do you REALLY think other people are the problem with your not turning a profit?
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION - 1st rule of business.
I knew you were going to take my statement the wrong way. I debated even bringing up, as I knew you would attack it immediately. What you failed to notice in my post was that I had no regrets about the buisnesses that I run. I knew from the outset, exploit or not, my buisnesses would only be convient to my guild and noone else. In order to be more profitable, my player city needs to grow.
Of course location is a key issue when building a shop,but not all of us can have a plot in South Coronet. Ultimately this conversation of location is, as I said before,besides the point. What is at point is the exploitation of merchants, not whether or not I, as a legitmate merchant, have a successful buisness. There are plenty of merchants on this board that I try to speak on their behalf who are truely successful.
You wanna tar and feather me and think I'm the Emperor incarnate? Fine - if it makes you feel all warm, snug and superior - go right ahead, I don't mind, really. But I'm honest to a fault and try to be absolutely as above board as possible with all my business dealings. You think I'm supposed to be the police for my tenants - ummm, exactly HOW am I supposed to know - or even do anything about it - if I did?
If someone asked me if they could lay down a vendor in my own residence, I sure as hell would be interested in everything that person wants to do with that vendor. If you are not willing to do due-dilligence correctly, you are going to be paying the price.
As far as it being a bug from the beginning - in MMOs sometimes the best things are 'happy accidents'. Often what looks good on paper does NOT pan out in practice. Vision is necesary - but having blinders on to wants and legitimate needs of a gaming community - i.e., your CUSTOMERS is ill advised to the extreme.
I know all about MMOs. I ran the server back end for a rather unsuccessful MMORPG by a company that most people have heard of. I've seen the perception of the devs and operators of these games first hand. You don't have to tell me about their politics. In order to be successful, hard choices and firm guidlines need to be put in place to help create the framework for the players to work in. They will tell you time and time again that the biggest obstical that they will need to overcome in the game is not new content, but bug exploitation. Many games have been destroyed due to money-duping, bot players, what have you.
Although not percieved as a game-breaking exploit, vendor poaching is a profession-breaking exploit, and should be eliminated with all dilligence.
I agree that changing this now is going to majorly piss off a lot of people.. However the "userbase at large" is notorious for extreme self interest.. I'm pretty sure that if they ever actually add decay to clothing, the "userbase at large" will NOT be happy at all.. Does that honestly mean that tailors are evil greedy self serving pigs for asking for decay? I'm sure you and I will agree that that is not the case..
The reality is that this, like clothing decay, should have been addressed a LONG time ago..It should never have been left to go on this long.. People have now become accustomed to having it all, not "choices".. And, although it is very obviously wrong, changing it now, makes it a percieved "nerf", despite the fact that the system was never intended for everyone to have vendors whether they have merchant skills or not..
There are a few things you might consider though..
Wire3k wrote:
Make no mistake - right now - the playing field IS level, you want it tipped decidedly in your favor.
I am not sure how it is that you define a level playing field, but I can assure you that from the perspective of this crafter merchant the field is NOT level, not without multiple accounts anyway.. Think about it a moment.. This game was created and is being designed further and further toward the idea of interdependancy.. That concept has been woven into the fabric of even the crafting proffessions... With the holo craze still in full swing, crafters are a dime a dozen and competition is fierce.. You may not see that, because you've been at it long enough, and have enough of a name for yourself that it doesn't really hurt you.. But, people who buy the game tomorrow have as much right to have a chance at running a business in this game as you do.. And, right now it's HARD for anyone getting started... I myself have been in business since very shortly after my server opened, and I have the benefit of name recognition..But I work hard to provide the best possible service to my customers, and to try to remain competitive.. And it is getting DAMN hard to be competitive and not make SWG a full time job.. Why? Because half the tailors out there, are Master Tailor, Master Bio-Engineer.. They can make their own tissues, make their own enhanced clothing, and can afford to sell them at cut throat prices, and at the same time they can have a shop full of nicely dressed, well organized vendors, to keep all their product easy to find, they can advertise on the global map, they can do it all.. Tell me, where is the interdependancy in that?? How is that "mutual cooperative play"?
Now let's talk about choice.. From reading your posts, if I didn't know better, I would think that Merchants were asking to make it impossible for crafters to have any form of vendor.. But, you see this is where "choice" comes into play.. Everyone gets to pick and choose where to invest their skill points.. Most crafters already have novice artisan, so it would be a simple matter of going up 3 lil boxes in the business line, and tadaa, they have a legit vendor.. Now if they really don't like the ugly box vendor, they have the "choice" to invest a lil bit more and get some better vendor options.. If they want their vendor to appear on the global map, they have a "choice" to invest a lil more and get advertising.. etc. etc. etc.. No one is asking to have vendors taken away from the realm of possiblity for crafters.. We are asking that crafters not be allowed to have access to as much as 63 extra skill points, that those of us who go legit don't have access to..
Ultimately, I agree with you, that it would be far better for us merchants to get improvements rather then focusing on taking things away from other players.. However, let's look at this realistically.. I have invested 63 skillpoints into this proffession.. 63!!!!The devs are NOT going to invest the amount of time needed to give us enough of our own unique skills that cannot be used by non merchants to satisfy this arguement.. It's not gonna happen.. And, think about it, if the devs did put that much time into fixing the merchant proffession, rather then working on combat balance or jedi revamps, how do you think the "userbase at large" would feel about that? They'd throw a fit and you know it..
My final point is this.. We all know the dreaded vendor nerf is coming.. It hasn't gone away, and it's not going to go away.. The commodities server is ridiculously unstable.. There are too many people using vendors however they see fit, despite the fact that it is not their intended use.. Too many people using them as storage, guild banks, etc. etc... We are merchants, we invest the skillpoints into having vendors, if they are going to nerf something, they had damned well better nerf the non merchant vendors before they nerf the legit vendors that are actually being used for their intended purpose.. The reality is that obviously the database can't handle everyone having a vendor, whether you percieve that as being the best thing for the game or not..
I realize I'm wasting my breath here, but my time in this game is coming to an end soon I suspect.. I've always resepcted you Wire3k, and you do make valid points.. But, I'm sorry, I refuse to buy into the concept that because everyone wants to help themselves to my skills, that means it's the best thing for the game, and I should bend over and take it..But, that's just my 2 credits FWIW..
***Edit*** Oops.. I got edited for bad language.. Shame on me.. All better..
Message Edited by MasterJian on 04-20-2004 02:43 AM
there is a absolute reason that this is a pothetic glitch. i used to have the pistol tree in BH, i gave that up to gain skill pts back, much like a merchant giving up merchant for skill pts, however when i dropped it i lost torso shot, i lost eye shot, i lost all the pistol speed i used to have, everything, just gone. why is it that merchant can give up there skill and still keep all of there old abilities. to me that just is not fair unless this holds true for every profession. so unless i get back all my pistol speed and all my shots from BH, and all my CH abilities from when i mastered CH, this exploit needs to be dealt with RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!
whine session terminated
I've gone into great detail in other posts as to the inadviseability of upsetting the applecart at this stage of release - I won't go into them here. There are basically no plusses for merchants in this - and negatives for everyone, including the merchant. The theory of less competition is a siren's song that will end you up on the rocks of disaster, the theory is grand - practical implementation of that theory is a train wreck waiting to happen.
very well said!
plus i love your website, swgbio is a must for anyone looking to be a sharp dressed SWG citizen
shameless plug terminated
relaxin wrote:
not being able to actively increase your merchant exp counts as a grind for me, perhaps im just sour about it, but i think just waiting for the experience to tick without me doing anything toward it is a grind, but then again i think watching grass grow doesnt count as a participatory sport. also being since i find myself in this somewhat accursed position of not being able to do much (my other skill points are tied up in doctor, a USEFUL profession) i really do not have the heart to bring my guildies/friends in merchant purgatory with me. i really feel like im getting raked for a months subscription with merchant, granted no one is actively forcing me to do merchant, but as a holo profession, what else am i supposed to do if i want a chance at having a jedi?
whine session terminated
Don't even whine to me about not being able to increase the speed of grinding my profession, holoboy. I'm not interested in listening to it.
I've posted in the past that I truely believe that Merchants should only gain XP based on the quality and quantity of items sold in bazaars and vendors. Why SOE decided on this XP model is beyond me. Whether or not you feel that it is fair, it is the rules that SOE put in place to gain skills in Merchant. Right or wrong, its still the system we all have to play in.
This is far from the case for Vendor poaching, where SOE has claimed to all on the boards that vendor poaching is a bug and it being exploited.
Do you also feel that us Master Merchants are second class citizens, cause we're not in a "useful" profession? What kind of bigotry is that?
Wire3k wrote:
I AM truly successful - I fall directly under your definition of 'legal' and believe me - you do NOT speak for me. I feel no threat, nor am I intimidated by others having basic vendor abilities as they do presently.
Actually you have not yet proven to me that you are legal, simply because you have not stated whole-heartedly that your shop contains no vendors who's owners can afford to drop through the use of their CURRENT Business or Merchant skill level. Not previous, CURRENT. Until you do, you are the scum I'm directly fighting against, not for,as you are profiteering from illegal game play.
Well, to PLACE the vendor - they obviously have to have the skills. How do you recommend policing after that? The one and only concern I have is that they keep the vendor stocked after placement. There is nothing in the world I detest more than empty vendors. THAT I can check on - although there are really no tools to even help me enforce THAT policy.
Do you even talk to your clientel? EVER? Find out how business is going? What their future plans are?
Merchant...Hahh!!! Sounds like your more of a glorified landlord.
Given that the rules work the same for everyone - I see nothing 'profession-breaking' about this. If you feel the current perks are worth keeping - you keep the class, if you don't you give up several perks when you give up the skill - and as I've mentioned repeatedly before, many MANY other needed and useful tools could be added to the - drop it and lose it - category.
This is NOT unique in the gameworld contrary to the many posts claiming it is. The comparisons to other things that can be done 'without skill' are just as valid if you are on that side of the argument.
You can stomp and shout and moan all you like about the way you think things SHOULD work, but you are never going to shake the average user's perception of the basic inalienable right to sell their own product if they so choose to in the MANNER in which they choose - efficiently. That's not YOUR call - that isn't even the Dev's call - that's the user's call. Sure, you can make and enforce rules any way you like - but whether or not the playerbase stands still for it and agrees with the value judgement and continues to pay you for your efforts is where the rubber meets the road.
THAT is the danger of changing such a fundamental system from the intuitive 'right' way it works now - even if it IS a bug - to the technically 'right' way that most users this will affect are going to highly resent and consider WRONG.
When given a choice, I have a feeling you'd be surprised at how the userbase can adapt to the changing gameplay. Remember the big CH nerf that happened last year? I remember the calls and shouts about how nobody will ever play the game any more. This was a far more wide-ranging and widepread change to the game environment. Guess what happened? Players adapted to the changing rules and skill sets. They adapted. And that change was not even made to remove a known bug!!!!!
As for this comment about how I think the game should work, are you going to say the same thing to SOE about how they think the game should work? I think from their point of view, they will note how you are spouting off about how YOU think things should work.
I may not have the far reaching voice to sway the playerbase, but I think they do. And they have spoken. Maybe not as loud asI or any other legitimate merchant would like them to, but the fact is they have.
And this inalienable rights issue of the crafters need for vendorsyou keep spouting about. What a load of horse manure. As if the crafters had no way to sell goods without vendors. You obviously decided not to pay attention to any of my suggestions for people who think they will be out of luck if they decide not to spend points in selling in vendors or to merchants. It's obvious you can't think in an ingenious and intuative way. I pray that other crafters can.
Im geting tired of listening to you that griefinga whole profession is OK for the game, and that its OK to exploit the game, since everybody is doing it. Appearently youare incapable to listening to reason.
Don't get me wrong. I'll keep posting as long as you pile up this junk on the boards. I have not given up this fight for a long time, so you better get used to me.
Balkstar wrote:
Actually you have not yet proven to me that you are legal, simply because you have not stated whole-heartedly that your shop contains no vendors who's owners can afford to drop through the use of their CURRENT Business or Merchant skill level. Not previous, CURRENT. Until you do, you are the scum I'm directly fighting against, not for,as you are profiteering from illegal game play.
Wire3k wrote:
Nor will I ever make such a statement. Not because of some grand plot or conspiracy - but because the question is unanswerable with any degree of certainty - there is NO WAY TO TELL, but in any case - any such 'profiteering' would be indirect at best - as I don't charge a dime in rent. Tenants in my store are picked solely for the quality of their product - and their ability to keep their vendors stocked with complimentary items. While there is a great deal of 'value' to all parties involved having increased draw into the shop, there is no 'illegal' gameplay on my part - I assure you.
I've asked you 3 times how you expect ME to know? You've ducked that and would prefer to paint me with a brush of scum and villany. Sorry - my crystal ball is a bit fuzzy when it comesto unverifiable matters.
And three times I've said, have you asked them? It's a very simple action. Personal interaction. Whether or not there is a degree of certainty to itis beside the point. Whether they lie to you or not, you nowgain a degree of deniability. Plus you will put it out to the crafters that actions of stealing Merchants skills are not only both not acceptible or legal, but also are causing grief to a significant number of players that want to play the Merchant profession as SOE intended. We are thought of as the second class citizens of the game, and I don't like persecution of anyplayer base, intended or not.
Don't perpetuate this thought. Act as if you were a real advocate to the profession you have chosen instead of saying its the games will.
Predicting MASS reactions is actually much easier - that's all based on human nature, 45 years of walking the planet - and 10 years of inworld crafter/merchant type experience. Some changes can be adapted to - other changes, changes that make the user community feel like they are being persecuted - or even worse - that the creators don't play their own game enough to understand basic fundamental NEEDS - are another nail in the coffin. IMHO - this happens to be one of those.
It's commendible that we have a veteran player that plays the game. But your remarks keep showing us that you are pretty set in your ways and that you aren't willing to accept new ideas presented in the game because it may affect the status quo of the game.
The merchant class is the first profession of its type inany of the games I have played during my 30+ years of life. However the class was broken early in the game, and the greatness of this new class of charactrers never came to fruition. I blame SOE greatly for this fault. They have not stepped to the plate to help curb the exploitation of the profession, and now it has grown well out of proportion. Players of the merchant profession are feeling really betrayed by lack of action.
But I'll be damned to let this kill the profession. This profession is hanging by a thread with its broken skill set, but there is still time to bring it back from the ashes.
Balkstar wrote:
Don't even whine to me about not being able to increase the speed of grinding my profession, holoboy. I'm not interested in listening to it.
I've posted in the past that I truely believe that Merchants should only gain XP based on the quality and quantity of items sold in bazaars and vendors. Why SOE decided on this XP model is beyond me. Whether or not you feel that it is fair, it is the rules that SOE put in place to gain skills in Merchant. Right or wrong, its still the system we all have to play in.
This is far from the case for Vendor poaching, where SOE has claimed to all on the boards that vendor poaching is a bug and it being exploited.
Do you also feel that us Master Merchants are second class citizens, cause we're not in a "useful" profession? What kind of bigotry is that?
i am amused at your rants of injustice of a system you have problems with but are quick to devolve into name calling with the other areas of a system you have no problems with yet others may. not that anyone who has even slightly followed this thread would even accuse you of being even slightly objective. im glad you put your energies into this little facet because your inflexible zealotry is much better kept to this rather inconsequential aspect of life rather than being spewed venomously into the rest of world.
more amusing is your victimization stance of being the trodden merchant when it masks intentions of control. i personally am glad the system is the way it is. there is no way i would ever let my wares be even under the slightest bit under your supervision. worry not, i am assured you would never have anything to do with this scum, holoboy, bigot, bully, etc. did i miss any other juvenile names you have spewed toward anyone not sharing your personal crusade?
i may have missed it, but have you even made any suggestion of positive changes to this most dysfunctional of professions? keep up the fight, i do enjoy trampling all over your ideals with my behavior. please do feel free to rant back, i do get a smile over how much this upsets you. any more time i can get you to waste here keeps you out of anyone elses way even if for a brief moment, and hoping any added stress may lead to an early termination of your existence may be to much to ask for, but why not try.
and i used to be such a civil person. /sigh
MasterJian wrote:
fwiw that is my biggest fear. I don't want this arguement to go on for another 8 months. I want closure on it.
I swear - they keep snatching defeat from the jaws of victory right and left, so chin up - you'll probably get your way.
I sincerely doubt it.. I can't say I have the resume of MMO experience that you have, but from what I've seen of the way things generally tend to work, they will probably post the "tentative changes" somewhere other then the merchant forum (without telling our correspondant), people will throw a fit, and completely refuse to compromise in any way, until they change their minds.. Then they will take it back, and leave it sit for 8 or 9 more months until those of us still hanging on finally give up.. Then perhaps you will get your way, and we will get "tossed in the dumpster"..But then again, perhaps I've just become jaded.. Whatever the case may be, I sincerely doubt that anyone on either side of this argument is going to change their minds.. Unfortunately "inflexible zealotry" seems to run steadily on both sides of the argument..