Merchant Archive
Thread: Dropping Merchant for now. Do I get to keep my Vendors???
hirosue wrote:
nice to see some people actually agreeing with me . Even in the face of such abuse and bad /sore attitude from the merchant mafia .
ROTFL all the way to the bank (in some insidious, maniacle way I'm sure the way other evil men do)
Since when did I become a members of a groupanalogous to an illegal organization that routinely uses stolen and bootleg material to make huge amounts of cash at the expense of others who legitimately pay for it? Ones that use strong arm tactics to eliminate competition? You might want to rethink where that mafia label goes. Like on your mirror.
SOE has confirmed the illegal actions mob-like activitiesyou do. You may deny it with your whole "legitmate buisnessman" routine, but the truth is out. I know that folks like you will end up where all fine mob bosses go: in prison fora long time or in a place that will get me banned if I mention it on the boards. Have a pleasent day.
rofl you really do make a meal out of saying very little very loudly balkstwat
I especially like the way you quote ,and then add your own comments i into the quote .
Iam pleased that you have taen to heart what i have said here .
As for you comments about joining groups how funny , may i remind you of your own little analogy
" All you have is your crying and yourlittle Communist Manifesto word to go on. " -
have you really read das kapital by karl marx , i doubt it very much . i would be even more doubtfull that you have understood it if you had read it and yet you seam quite happy to make an analogy about me being a communist !
you are so typical of some people who have been around these forums for a while , anyone who has an opinion different to yours gets slammed and flamed .
your are an idiot .
Message Edited by Gohan_Trunksss on 04-16-2004 01:10 AM
mhal9000 wrote:
Do me a favor, one-star wonder. Check out this link, pay special attention to what the message is about, and then go to the very bottom of the thread and see what the nice man with the yellow admin name has to say about it.
Then come back and tell me the system is "as intended"
The nice man in yellow is a board mod. If that was a RED name, I'd believe it. It may eventually come to pass - but even I don't think they are willing to piss off THAT much of the userbase.
hirosue wrote:
rofl you really do make a meal out of saying very little very loudly balkstwat
Considering you bring nothing to the table, other than a self-serving ideology and a propencity to spout off how merchant players are teh devil's incarnate, what I say appear to go miles beyond you.
I especially like the way you quote ,and then add your own comments i into the quote .
If you you had half a brain, you would have noticed that I color my comment to the quote to prevent illegally misrepresenting the post. I felt that with a little light shown on it, the true feeling of your quote would shine through and be evident to everybody.
Iam pleased that you have taen to heart what i have said here .
As for you comments about joining groups how funny , may i remind you of your own little analogy
" All you have is your crying and yourlittle Communist Manifesto word to go on. " -
have you really read das kapital by karl marx , i doubt it very much . i would be even more doubtfull that you have understood it if you had read it and yet you seam quite happy to make an analogy about me being a communist !
Whether it be "Das Kapital" or worthless street urchin toilet pap... er... newspapers from San Fran or Seattle, the message is always the same thing: The only thing to trust is the common man'sway manifested in the form of a Politburo. Capitailistic organizations will step on the common man in order to better itself.... on and on and on... worthless trash from people that wanted to know what their own country could do for them, and not what they could do for their country. People that didn't look to themselves or take responsibility to better their own lives.
The reason why I brought that up is to show the poster that what he ranted about was a communistic ideal that someone who attempt to sell product in a non-Keynsian way must be punished for his deeds because he cannot be trusted. While the system as it stands now is flawed, as it is very easy to master Merchant without selling any actual product, to take matters into one's own hands to punish those of us that are trying legitimately to make a living in the game byreselling goodsin this profession is morally repugnant.
It should be called out at every oppertunity when identified, that when seen, it is not only illegal in the game, it also hurts other players game experience.
you are so typical of some people who have been around these forums for a while , anyone who has an opinion different to yours gets slammed and flamed .
your are an idiot .
You might want to look in the mirror sometime about that flaming issue. Idiot? I don't think you have the moral high ground on this one.
Balkstar wrote:
The reason why I brought that up is to show the poster that what he ranted about was a communistic ideal that someone who attempt to sell product in a non-Keynsian way must be punished for his deeds because he cannot be trusted. While the system as it stands now is flawed, as it is very easy to master Merchant without selling any actual product, to take matters into one's own hands to punish those of us that are trying legitimately to make a living in the game byreselling goodsin this profession is morally repugnant.
It should be called out at every oppertunity when identified, that when seen, it is not only illegal in the game, it also hurts other players game experience.
Wire3k wrote:
"Merchants" are hanging on so tightly to the concept that selling goods should be THEIRS - they are totally missing the benefits of more people having vendors, and that their energies would be better directed improving reasons to keep merchant - rather than gutting others abilities to sell.
And what would you have MERCHANTS do? play Tiddaly Winks all day for XP? Doesn't the title of the profession itself bely the fact that we might actually have a role to play in the economy?
At no time have I ever said that crafters and resource mavens should not sell their own products. I have said in the past (as welkl as today) its not their God-given right to sell, but the option of sellingis always there, and they could always exploit selling through other means outside the Merchant treewithout having to steal skills:
1. The oft mentioned Farmers Market.
2. Direct sales to targeted classes of characters through the use of Profession searches and tells.
3. Spamming at local hotspots, such as Coronet.
This is but a sample of many ways that inginious crafters can deal without the Merchant's meager skills to sell product. But in the end, Merchants are never used, because the majority of crafters are greedy and cling to the notion that they are being treated unfairly by devsfor not getting benifits to sell something.
The 'game' of merchant isn't just the ability to sell items - it's knowing product, market and customers. Tools can give you an edge, but they will never replace personal skills in this arena, nor will removing others ability to sell their own goods really help the merchant cause.
You may be right in the idea that the Merchant tree should be all about commmunication and product knowledge, but crafters like you greedly hoard that knowledge for your self-serving motives. Did you even attempt to contact a Merchantto help distribute yourgoods in an economical way? I'll bet you you didn't even trybecause you probably didn't trust them, as many of your posts have been indicating. And now Merchants will never know whatyouhave to sell because you have automattically religated my proffession to second-classdom by stealing myskillset in the game, making the skill points that I invest worthless.
The crafting/merchant game is as much about cooperation as it is competition - which is why I've always been a merchant/crafter. I ONLY win - if everyone wins. You cannot be a success in this field if it's a win/lose scenario.
For someone who preaches cooperation, you are doing suprisingly little of it. If I remember correctly this is a MMORPG. I'm sure that you may have remembered that one of those M's represent Multi-player. You know, more then one? This game is about interactions, not only between the game and the players, but among the players themselves. It's the reason why combat nerfs happen, so that not one class blueprint cannot be self-sufficient. In order to be successful in the game, players must interact with others in the game.
When you steal benifits of a profession, you eliminate that need for interaction amoung other players. It then becomes a very sad and silly life.in the game..that of a hermit. And those you steal skills from become 2nd class citizens, not able to keep up with the juggernauts that you have become, becausethese 2nd class citizens mustsink points into skills that give them no benifits, as youalready have obtained them.
Do you feel good about yourself when you do that? If you do, then I feel for you, because it proves you lack a concience.
I've gone into great detail in other posts as to the inadviseability of upsetting the applecart at this stage of release - I won't go into them here. There are basically no plusses for merchants in this - and negatives for everyone, including the merchant. The theory of less competition is a siren's song that will end you up on the rocks of disaster, the theory is grand - practical implementation of that theory is a train wreck waiting to happen.
The excuse that its too late now to do anything? Go back home and be the good little toy soldier that you should be? Please! Don't give me that. I thought you were a better debater then that. The fact is you are too lazy to try out anything else. You have to steal from the poor to get rich yourself, but "This is the status norm, so get over it."
This is the exact reason I'm posting about this. To end stupid and immoral gameplay.To get people to think that stealing from other players may not necessarily be the best way to make friends in this game.
I'm playig forthe benifit of my friends and myself. Do you even have any in the game?
Balkstar wrote:
Wire3k wrote:
"Merchants" are hanging on so tightly to the concept that selling goods should be THEIRS - they are totally missing the benefits of more people having vendors, and that their energies would be better directed improving reasons to keep merchant - rather than gutting others abilities to sell.
And what would you have MERCHANTS do? play Tiddaly Winks all day for XP? Doesn't the title of the profession itself bely the fact that we might actually have a role to play in the economy?
At no time have I ever said that crafters and resource mavens should not sell their own products. I have said in the past (as welkl as today) its not their God-given right to sell, but the option of sellingis always there, and they could always exploit selling through other means outside the Merchant treewithout having to steal skills:
1. The oft mentioned Farmers Market.
2. Direct sales to targeted classes of characters through the use of Profession searches and tells.
3. Spamming at local hotspots, such as Coronet.
This is but a sample of many ways that inginious crafters can deal without the Merchant's meager skills to sell product. But in the end, Merchants are never used, because the majority of crafters are greedy and cling to the notion that they are being treated unfairly by devsfor not getting benifits to sell something.
The 'game' of merchant isn't just the ability to sell items - it's knowing product, market and customers. Tools can give you an edge, but they will never replace personal skills in this arena, nor will removing others ability to sell their own goods really help the merchant cause.
You may be right in the idea that the Merchant tree should be all about commmunication and product knowledge, but crafters like you greedly hoard that knowledge for your self-serving motives. Did you even attempt to contact a Merchantto help distribute yourgoods in an economical way? I'll bet you you didn't even trybecause you probably didn't trust them, as many of your posts have been indicating. And now Merchants will never know whatyouhave to sell because you have automattically religated my proffession to second-classdom by stealing myskillset in the game, making the skill points that I invest worthless.
The crafting/merchant game is as much about cooperation as it is competition - which is why I've always been a merchant/crafter. I ONLY win - if everyone wins. You cannot be a success in this field if it's a win/lose scenario.
For someone who preaches cooperation, you are doing suprisingly little of it. If I remember correctly this is a MMORPG. I'm sure that you may have remembered that one of those M's represent Multi-player. You know, more then one? This game is about interactions, not only between the game and the players, but among the players themselves. It's the reason why combat nerfs happen, so that not one class blueprint cannot be self-sufficient. In order to be successful in the game, players must interact with others in the game.
When you steal benifits of a profession, you eliminate that need for interaction amoung other players. It then becomes a very sad and silly life.in the game..that of a hermit. And those you steal skills from become 2nd class citizens, not able to keep up with the juggernauts that you have become, becausethese 2nd class citizens mustsink points into skills that give them no benifits, as youalready have obtained them.
Do you feel good about yourself when you do that? If you do, then I feel for you, because it proves you lack a concience.
I've gone into great detail in other posts as to the inadviseability of upsetting the applecart at this stage of release - I won't go into them here. There are basically no plusses for merchants in this - and negatives for everyone, including the merchant. The theory of less competition is a siren's song that will end you up on the rocks of disaster, the theory is grand - practical implementation of that theory is a train wreck waiting to happen.
The excuse that its too late now to do anything? Go back home and be the good little toy soldier that you should be? Please! Don't give me that. I thought you were a better debater then that. The fact is you are too lazy to try out anything else. You have to steal from the poor to get rich yourself, but "This is the status norm, so get over it."
This is the exact reason I'm posting about this. To end stupid and immoral gameplay.To get people to think that stealing from other players may not necessarily be the best way to make friends in this game.
I'm playig forthe benifit of my friends and myself. Do you even have any in the game?
Excuse me - but I HAVE a master merchant - thank you very much. I also have 4 master crafter professions - guess what - I not only sell MY things - but I contract with other trades that I DON'T have to sell their wares, I regularly shop other vendors for 'good deals' to resell- AND I have other crafter merchants with their OWN vendors in my shop. I even have vendor tenants in my shop that make things I CAN make - simply because I don't have enough time to create and stock everything properly if I tried to do it all myself.
Now - you wanna preach some more about how I'm stealing something from you? Allfour are distinct options as the system is NOW, no changes are necessary to piss off a large part of the userbase which WILL affect my business.
With nearly 500 people thru my shop on a SLOW day - I think I have a fairly successful business, and if I had any MORE friends and contacts in game I'd probably not ever be able to get anything done.
And you are correct - selling your own wares IS perceived as part and parcel to creation of product by players. Right now they have a choice - you'd like to take any viable or convienent choices away from them, that's strong arm tactics, and I'm sorry - I think that's wrong. I think it it will damage the game for everyone - merchants included.
I'm glad you think stealing is wrong - consider that if and when you get your way - you'll be stealing opportunity from the very people that put in the time and the effort to create products - the opportunity to deal with you if they CHOOSE to - or not, if they CHOOSE to. You are stealing their choices and really adding nothing to yourself in the process.
Wire3k wrote:
Excuse me - but I HAVE a master merchant - thank you very much. I also have 4 master crafter professions - guess what - I not only sell MY things - but I contract with other trades that I DON'T have to sell their wares, I regularly shop other vendors for 'good deals' to resell- AND I have other crafter merchants with their OWN vendors in my shop. I even have vendor tenants in my shop that make things I CAN make - simply because I don't have enough time to create and stock everything properly if I tried to do it all myself.
That is the most refreshing thing I have heard you say all day. I'm glad that it appears that you are using the Merchant professions as it is intended )sort of). So I have no idea what you are trying to argue about.
I would assume that your vendored clients in your mall are law-abiding citizens that would never drop a vendor that they could not afford skill points wise. Or are you afraid that if the vendors did have to be downgraded, that you mall would either look really empty, or be totally cluttered by pop machines? Are you just trying to make sure that your mall has some visual esthetic continuity? I'm beginning to now see why you approach the argument the way you do.
I believe the phraseI'm looking to use nowis "Caught you"
Now - you wanna preach some more about how I'm stealing something from you? Allfour are distinct options as the system is NOW, no changes are necessary to piss off a large part of the userbase which WILL affect my business.
OK. Let me get this straight. It's OK to ruin my game play, just as long as it doesn't affect yours? What a weak excuse. Just because everyone does it doesn't mean it right. What it does mean is its a bug that has been MASSIVELY exploited. It's still wrong to do.
It affects my gameplay to see the countless numbers of premium vendors lined up all over the place, mocking me, knowing that players get to take one of my profession perks and use it free of change, while I have to keep skill points locked up. I know that the majority of these are laid down illegally, otherwise this profession would be much more widespread than it already is, this board would be hella more busy than it actually is, and people would care what happens to this profession. Just what is my benefit of locking up my skill points in branches like Hiring and Advertising if everyone else uses them for free?
Your complicity by aligning yourself with other players that plop down illegal vendors in your mall makes you just as guilty as they are, as you benefit extremely by the face time of all those illegal vendors in one place. Just how many of your tenants are merchants, anyways?
With nearly 500 people thru my shop on a SLOW day - I think I have a fairly successful business, and if I had any MORE friends and contacts in game I'd probably not ever be able to get anything done.
And you are correct - selling your own wares IS perceived as part and parcel to creation of product by players. Right now they have a choice - you'd like to take any viable or convienent choices away from them, that's strong arm tactics, and I'm sorry - I think that's wrong. I think it it will damage the game for everyone - merchants included.
I'm glad you think stealing is wrong - consider that if and when you get your way - you'll be stealing opportunity from the very people that put in the time and the effort to create products - the opportunity to deal with you if they CHOOSE to - or not, if they CHOOSE to. You are stealing their choices and really adding nothing to yourself in the process.
You keep working under this false pretention that says that you must sell to me or any otherof my merchant bretheren and that its also my God-given right to sell your stuff. As I have said before there are many ways to sell without even thinking about touching the Merchant profession, but I guess you must have skipped that.
You also think that I don't make product of my own, that I'm incapable to think as the crafters do. I have to maintain factories and extractors, and have to mine for the most quality raw materials just like everyone else. I know how time consuming it is to do the work of grinding out products. It's so mind numbing to me, then,with all that crafters have to do, why not share the responsibility of vending to someone that should have a great advantage in advertising so that they don't have to put up with it. If you want to do both, fine, do what I did. Spend the points as a crafter and merchant. Build your privatecorporate empire. But play with a concience.
Just for reminders sake, and don't ask me why I keep giving ideas to theives, the are a few of the ways to sell products without even bothering with Merchant:
1. The oft mentioned Farmers Market.
2. Direct sales to targeted classes of characters through the use of Profession searches and tells.
3. Spamming at local hotspots, such as Coronet.
I haven't the faintest Idea if the vendors in my shop are 'legal' by your standards - nor do I care. I care that they keep them stocked, that my customers come and leave satisfied. That'sall I or any other merchant need care about for the system to prosper.
I haven't the faintest idea if the vendors I buy to resell from are 'legal' by your standards - nor do I care. I shop - I find good deals - I know what my market is - I fetch them home for my happy customers. That's all I or any other merchant need care about for the system to prosper.
Did some meanie steal toys you thought were yours in the sandbox - maybe because you never grasped the concept of mutal cooperative play? I've never had a vendor mock me - but if you want to stop by the shop sometime let me know - and I'll set my barks up so that hey - you can truthfully say it's REALLY happened. Because, geeze - one of the perks of KEEPING merchant is you can change up the barks. See - it's not so worthless to keep. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries - or something along those lines ok?
I've run a shop in one world or another for over 10 years now - they are ALWAYS successful. My customers come first, quality is important, knowing wants, needs, fads and product knowledge as it pertains to your business is critical. I quite frankly don't have time to worry about how someone else is playing THEIR game and I don't need to have artificial crutches to make up for lack of my OWN personal business and organizational skills on a level playing field. Make no mistake - right now - the playing field IS level, you want it tipped decidedly in your favor.
You want to sit on the throne of moral authority and pronounce that it doesn't matter what the userbase at large thinks. Don't be surprised if you look down from that throne and find the courtyard empty. Yes sir, you and you alone have the pretty vendors - unfortunately you just drove away all your suppliers and customers. That my friend DOES affect my business - and yours and anyone else that sticks around but wonders where all the business went.
Enlighted self-interest is a wonderful thing - you might want to look up that definition if you ever want to have more than just a pretty title over your name and actually BE a working merchant.
MasterJian: I appreciate the comments that you have put out. I know how frustrated you are with SOE. I now place much of the blame, as you do,on them for not focusing on fixing a profession that they could see early on was withering on the vine. Obviously there are other professions that need as much loving attention as this profession, but what they have done to merchants is reprehensible. I pray that they fix these issues ASAP, otherwise we will lose more assets to the professions, like you.
Wire3k wrote:
I haven't the faintest Idea if the vendors in my shop are 'legal' by your standards - nor do I care. I care that they keep them stocked, that my customers come and leave satisfied. That'sall I or any other merchant need care about for the system to prosper.
I haven't the faintest idea if the vendors I buy to resell from are 'legal' by your standards - nor do I care. I shop - I find good deals - I know what my market is - I fetch them home for my happy customers. That's all I or any other merchant need care about for the system to prosper.
To be a be a legitimate and legal buisness professional, you must follow laws and a standard of ethics that is innate in the economic system you are currently work in. If you fail to adhere to these guidelines, the environment that you sell products in is concidered a black market. As you have not answered my question directly as to the status of the legality of all theplaced vendors in your mall, I have to assume that,per SOE's guidelines,there are illegally placed vendors in your mall(i.e. NPC type vendorsthat are placed by people that do not currently have skill points invested in the Mechant profession). As the shop's owner, you areresponsible for the buisness practices that occur insaid shop, no matter if you have the title Master Merchant.
Seems to me that your buisness practices are a little on the shady side.
Did some meanie steal toys you thought were yours in the sandbox - maybe because you never grasped the concept of mutal cooperative play? I've never had a vendor mock me - but if you want to stop by the shop sometime let me know - and I'll set my barks up so that hey - you can truthfully say it's REALLY happened. Because, geeze - one of the perks of KEEPING merchant is you can change up the barks. See - it's not so worthless to keep. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries - or something along those lines ok?
OK. I can play in your stupid little analogy. I'm playing in my sandbox with toys paid for by me. Somepunk bully is watching me play with said toys. Hethinks "Man!Those toys are the coolest. I want that, but I wanna spend my money on comic books. I'll just take them from that little dweeb."He snags them, then buys his comic books later. I can easlily get more toys, but at the same time,I can't afford the comic book that the bully has also coveted.
What ever happened to the commandment, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's possessions?" I fail to see how some bully who steals from me has any resemblence to "cooperative" play. Sounds more like paracitic play to me.
As for this "ability" to change my vendors barks, is that really the grand perk that you are spouting? I have never changed my vendor bark, nor have thought about doing that for the past 6 months. So far as I have known, I have not heard the big uproar from the bully vendor droppers actually having regrets that they can't change their venfor barks either. Personally its not worth the 3-4 skill points.
I've run a shop in one world or another for over 10 years now - they are ALWAYS successful. My customers come first, quality is important, knowing wants, needs, fads and product knowledge as it pertains to your business is critical. I quite frankly don't have time to worry about how someone else is playing THEIR game and I don't need to have artificial crutches to make up for lack of my OWN personal business and organizational skills on a level playing field. Make no mistake - right now - the playing field IS level, you want it tipped decidedly in your favor.
ME ME ME ME ME!!!! Thats all I here in this paragraph. Just because you have become a successful mafioso on the backs of the poor Merchants out here that are trying to legitimately compete with you doesn't mean is a fair system at all. You just percieve that because the bug was there at the beginning has grown to epidemic proportions. You continue to perpetuate the ilegal gameplay by posting this crap and by letting any old Tom, **edit**, andHarry drop any vendor in your store without asking hard questions of them.
I'm realizing that you are afraid of this patches release. You now realize that, in order to keep the level of customers of shop the way it is, you will actually have to do work in maintaining all those nice vendors that you will have to plop down for every illegal vendors your craftering clientel droppedthat willdisappear when the fix is out.
When the fixes come hard and fast, frankly, I won't weep for you. Balance will finally be restored to the legitimate players of the game.
You want to sit on the throne of moral authority and pronounce that it doesn't matter what the userbase at large thinks. Don't be surprised if you look down from that throne and find the courtyard empty. Yes sir, you and you alone have the pretty vendors - unfortunately you just drove away all your suppliers and customers. That my friend DOES affect my business - and yours and anyone else that sticks around but wonders where all the business went.
Again perpetuating an illegal act just to make it the status quo does not make it any more right. In fact it makes it reprehensible. It's called being a propigandist. It's molding the public into your warp, twisted standard.
SOE may lose palyers to the game if the fix comes into fruition, but needless to say one of 2 things will happen.
1.Players will start to find ingenous ways of selling crafted goods or raw materials without the need to use vendors.
2.Players will look to Merchants to actually resell products, as the devs had always intended.
Either one of these scenarios is perfectly fine with me, as well, I'm sure, the vast majority of the Merchants that are playing in the game. I certainly do hope that this fix affects your buisness. As the game stands now, it sounds as if you are profiteering in a manner that is most disreputible.
Enlighted self-interest is a wonderful thing - you might want to look up that definition if you ever want to have more than just a pretty title over your name and actually BE a working merchant.
Enlightened self interest means that you can percieve all consequence to any action in order to make an informed decision in the choices that will benifit you the most in life. You have decided that the way to get ahead in the game through illegal means and bully tactics. Your moral choices are highly suspect, therefore I decide to choose against your ways.
I am a merchant. I continue to work in a struggling shop in a remote location. I do this, not for my benefit, but for the benifit of my clan. I do what I do to give the crafters of my clan a conduit to sell their products on the open market successfully. Currently I do not turn a profit, but I have no regrets and that is besides the point. It is an injustice to this profession, and, by God, I'm gonna see it fixed until its the last thing I do in this game.
Balkstar
"Dude" - there isn't a conspiracy around every corner and you really need to see someone about this victimization complex.
It's nice you're running a little shop out in the boonies somewhere for your buds - but do you REALLY think other people are the problem with your not turning a profit?
LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION - 1st rule of business.
You wanna tar and feather me and think I'm the Emperor incarnate? Fine - if it makes you feel all warm, snug and superior - go right ahead, I don't mind, really. But I'm honest to a fault and try to be absolutely as above board as possible with all my business dealings. You think I'm supposed to be the police for my tenants - ummm, exactly HOW am I supposed to know - or even do anything about it - if I did?
As far as it being a bug from the beginning - in MMOs sometimes the best things are 'happy accidents'. Often what looks good on paper does NOT pan out in practice. Vision is necesary - but having blinders on to wants and legitimate needs of a gaming community - i.e., your CUSTOMERS is ill advised to the extreme.