Merchant Archive

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BountyBlunter wrote:

Last time I looked my Master Ranger on Scylla had 28sp invested in camps which are no-longer required since people complained about not being able to call their bikes and pets in the wild, and they got that taken out of the game.. Loved that update! Made me feel real special! How about the 28sp invested in trapping which I never use and find a complete waste of SP.. Some people disagreed about trapping being useless, of course it is my own personal opinion, as your appraisal of clothing vendors is personal opinion.. Every profession has areas which need revising, if they didn't they would all be perfect, the solution is to fix and progress them not nuke them and distribute the burnt remains to other professions!

I disagree with your later proposition, but agree with your earlier one. Ranger is another broken profession, and imo should also be removed, and have its skills redistributed. I am of the opinion some professions do not add value to the game and need to be removed - and yes, this is my opinion. We have X hours of developers' time per week, month and year. Having developers' spread their time across the sheer myriad professions we have at the moment means that some have not had any new functionality since launch. This contributes to a feeling of hopelessness around a number of professions. For instance musicians, merchants, rangers, squad leaders, smugglers etc. etc. I think there is excellent scope for a Merchant profession, but it will require some dramatic reorgnisation in the way crafting and the economy works, and that seems unlikely to happen.

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BountyBlunter wrote:

One of the problems with removing merchant might be the fact I have a Master Merchant title above my head and I don't want you to, that would have been a good place to start.. You stepped up a gear over where you should be, people don't have to be a merchant to sell goods as you say.. They can be an artisan with business III and still have a vendor.. If people can't afford to invest SP into that line first and then progress to merchant then it's not really an issue with merchant, it's an issue with Artisan, because you can't afford the SP for the stem profession.. If you remove the Merchant profession completely from the debate you would still need to put SP into artisan for a vendor.

They can have one vendor, that is not advertisable anywhere "legitimate". I fail to understand how investing 14sp is worse than investing 63 + 14 for master merchant. Many crafters have master artisan or close to it anyway.

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BountyBlunter wrote:

Wrong! You don't have to be totally a fighter or totally a crafter at all. I could give you countless demonstrations of how crafting and combat can be combined but I really don't want to waste my time going over that again, last time I tried the only response was " It wouldn't work " , no actual reason other than " No, your wrong ".. Instead of making a generalisation like that provide an example of what you are saying, because in my eyes that problem does not exsist.

Others have pointed out that, for instance you cannot have a master crafting profession, master combat profession and advertising 4 - you can have some of merchant, but not as much as would necessarily make your life easier. Or for instance to have novice scout so you can harvest hides etc.

Wrong again! I know that in our Village on Talus (Radiant) we don't have any of the issues which you are talking about.. I should know.. I'm the mayor, the merchant, and the chef. The problems you mention will also vary server to server and planet to planet... Personally I have never had a problem with pricing or finding something which I need, sometimes I have to go searching for it but that's part of the game, I've played on six different servers I think and currently have five different characters... Prices are made by the player.. Also not every player wants to be a crafter, in fact some people playing this game would probably do anything else but craft.. And, once again you don't need to be a merchant to sell your wares.

I am on Bria. I know no chefs - well, I did, but many of them have since moved onto other professions. I need Veghash. I tried 6 vendors around coronet before finding one that had veghash - most of them were empty. This situation varies dramatically from server to server - and probably planet to planet. Prices are determined by the player and the economy in which they're working. Of course not everyone wants to craft - but I'm saying not having a way to sell ones' goods makes one think twice about taking up crafting in the first place.

Furthermore:
1. Does it look like we have a copy of the source code ...?
2. On the list.. Nuff said.
3. People make empty vendors, people spam them, people are the problem not the profession.

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No. This is a human engineered virtual environment, and the way it is played is the way it should be coded not the other way around. If it's not working the way it was intended, it's not working period. It needs to be changed.

Ok , so ..

. Not only that please explain to me how you will address the player base to tell them that a profession which they personally may love is being destroyed and distributed over these other professions, and what reason you would give. Oh, and while your doing this realise that probably every merchant in here will be firing back at everything you post.

And you can explain to the player base why it is they must invest 63SP in a profession that is broken, and not working the way it should if it's left as is. In case you hadn't realised I'm not a "them", I'm a merchant myself.

If people were given an extra 63SP, and the skills merchant has were given to master crafters then you would not have lost anything - you would have gained 63SP since you are already master chef.

if you can't think up of a decent way to arrange the skillsets so everyone who previously had master merchant can regain all the skills they put into other professions, a good way to address the masses about the changes and deal with any complaints about people being forced to change their skillset by SOE based on other players feedback and an excellent way to address the professions which want access to vendors but are not invested crafting professions, then neither you or the original poster should be suggesting it.

So something's broken and we're not allowed to start debate on it with one suggestion - give it to master crafters. Yes it's a radical suggestion, and yes there are problems - as I said, I don't have all the answers - it doesn't mean that my opinion is invalid.

Message Edited by Rehavam on 07-13-2004 01:45 AM

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Smurfwalker wrote:

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Andymantium wrote:
You come to the merchant forum and ask for the profession to be removed. The notion assumes that nobody enjoys the profession or gains value from it. Seriously, what kind of response did you expect by posting that here?

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No, I said neither. I gain value from Merchant, and I'm sure there are those that enjoy it. I'm saying that those things you enjoy about it might be better achieved by it not being a fully fledged elite profession.

You are assuming that everyone who is forced to take Merchant enjoys it, and that my view is a small minority - I think if you ask around you'll find the notion that Merchant is perhaps not working is a widely held one. These are my opinions of course, and so are yours.

I replied to your /throwing eggs because I fail to see what you were trying to achieve.

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I'm pretty sure the majority agrees that merchant could use more work. I don't believe anyone is denying that. What I find tiresome is the argument that merchant is redundant because it is not working, whatever that happens to mean.

I don't think the tax system is working, but that doesn't mean we should simply remove it. Improvements, upgrades, enhancements, are all things we should be discussing, not arguing over the validity of merchant skill points or the rights to own a vendor (people's perceptions of entitlement are often a strange thing in this game). Unfortunately, when 50%+ of the threads on this forum touch this matter, every day, it doesn't take much to set people off sometimes. Didn't mean to jump all over you, but I'm just tired of those who come here and speak down on the profession with cries of removal or nerf, or whatever the case may be, simply because they are unable...no, unwilling to spend the skill points on a profession to gain the benefits.

Anyhow, that was long-winded, and I'm tired, so I'll equip my flame-blanket and go to sleep.

Cheers

Message Edited by BountyBlunter on 07-13-2004 09:47 AM

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Rehavam wrote:

Whilst I not enterily agree with the original poster I find some replies and reactions rather repugnant.The man has a point, hasn't he?

What I'd suggest is to keep the merchant proffession with improved vendor managment abilities and other very good suggestions from this forum - but also grant the masters in elite artisan professions one or two vendors so that they don't have to waiste their skill points for another prof only to sell their goods.

Message Edited by Rehavam on 07-13-2004 01:45 AM

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Hmmm... What part of " You get a vendor at Buisness III in Artisan " don't people understand ?..

Also what part of " Waste their skillpoints on a profession just to sell their wares " don't people understand might be insulting when posted on a professional board that people are " Wasting " skill points on.. I could go into any board on this forum and post how I think their profession should be removed from the game because of [ insert idea thought up while at work trolling ] but I don't... Why you ask ? Because...

THAT is repugnant

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Wire3k wrote:

If you are mainly interested in crafting as a profession - selling your goods is a natural part of it - it IS a waste of points to force players to forego other areas of the game they'd enjoy to simply get the full measure from the crafting part.

(snip)

Merchants that think they will somehow magically overnight have legitimacy and purpose if everyone's vendors are stripped from them are in for a rude awakening. Merchant as a standalone class acting as a funnel in this manner is a parasite - parasites are bad, they add no value. Artifically manipulating the system to create a need doesn't make it one bit less parasitic.

The interaction line is also a load of BS. There are FAR too many classes and interactions in the game already for anyone to come close to being a standalone character. Merchant as a class was meant to be a skillpoint sink and it's resented from those that do it - or workaround it - and gives the 'pure' merchants panties a twist here in the forums because in a vacumn - they've come up with their OWN definition of what they think it should be.

Players have a right to sell their own goods and you are never going to convince them otherwise. The interaction (even if thru vendors) is the very reason many craft - merchants in this forum seem to think 'crafters' should be small children in 3rd world sweatshops and fill orders. Those that WANT to do that - already can. Merchants that WANT to buy and resell - already can.

It ain't broken now, but I'm afraid it might soon be.

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If you are mainly interested in buying and re selling goods - you don't NEED a class for that - never have, never did, never will - those are PEOPLE skills and you can do it now - you could do it if they totally nuked merchant as a standalone class. Add in a basic Vendor at artisan business III and you should be all set..

Fixed...?

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Wire3k wrote:

If you are mainly interested in crafting as a profession - selling your goods is a natural part of it - it IS a waste of points to force players to forego other areas of the game they'd enjoy to simply get the full measure from the crafting part.

You conflict yourself. You state below you don't "need" a class for seliing wares, yet you complain that you are "forced" to undertake the skill points?

If you are mainly interested in buying and reselling goods - you don't NEED a class for that - never have, never did, never will - those are PEOPLE skills and you can do it now - you could do it if they totally nuked merchant as a standalone class.

Of course you can do that now. Everyone's aware of the secure trade, you can do that anytime. Often, it's the most expedient method of finalizing a transaction. However, to imply that personal interaction is the only means of conducting a business is wrong.

Merchants that think they will somehow magically overnight have legitimacy and purpose if everyone's vendors are stripped from them are in for a rude awakening. Merchant as a standalone class acting as a funnel in this manner is a parasite - parasites are bad, they add no value. Artifically manipulating the system to create a need doesn't make it one bit less parasitic.

If you think merchant is such a "parasite", why are you here? The crux of your argument is that merchant holds no value whatsoever, and shouldn't exist. Well, sorry you feel that way. By the way, I don't think <insert your professions here> are value-adding either. They take away from my gameplay and therefore should be removed.

The interaction line is also a load of BS. There are FAR too many classes and interactions in the game already for anyone to come close to being a standalone character. Merchant as a class was meant to be a skillpoint sink and it's resented from those that do it - or workaround it - and gives the 'pure' merchants panties a twist here in the forums because in a vacumn - they've come up with their OWN definition of what they think it should be.

The above is, of course, purely your "own" definition of what merchant represents. Not everyone dislikes merchant to the degree you describe. Obviously, it needs work as a profession, but you make assumptions you have no evidence for.

Players have a right to sell their own goods and you are never going to convince them otherwise. The interaction (even if thru vendors) is the very reason many craft - merchants in this forum seem to think 'crafters' should be small children in 3rd world sweatshops and fill orders. Those that WANT to do that - already can. Merchants that WANT to buy and resell - already can.

Everyone is entitled to sell their crafted items,loot items,services, or whatever else they can come up with. Nobody is debating that here. Though, I find your comment on 3rd world children to be very distasteful and vile. And, yes, there are plenty of merchants who are involved in the intermediary market, and their business is augmentedthrough the use of multiple vendors across the galaxy. From your phrasing above, in italics, you project a profound dislikeof automatedvendors. If personal interaction is your choice of action, that's fine, it's your interpretation of what a merchant should be.However, arguing against the validity of the existing merchant profession just makes you look like you want something for nothing.

If that's truly the way you feel, and are adamant in your quest to remove us parasites, then send a PM to Thunderheart oranother Dev, explaining your caseas towhy you feelthe profession should be removed. Posting such comments on the merchant forum will not garner any positive reactions, and serve only to create flame-fests.

It ain't broken now, but I'm afraid it might soon be.

The merchant PROFESSION is slightly broken and requires a revamp. The mercantile DYNAMICS in the game are, as you say, not broken.

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Wire3k wrote:

I HAVE a master merchant - I also have 3 accounts. I buy - resell AND have a lot of crafting masters. I also know this is NOT the norm - nor should it be for someone to do what they feel is comfortable ingame.

One of those accounts is a master bio/tailor. Guess what, those two professions work wonderfully together - no pts let over for the delivery unit - i.e, vendors on their own.

It doesn't hurt me one bit for anyone else to have vendors. Vendors are delivery units. What WILL hurt is if you marginalize so many other players that they are driven out of the game.

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I would think Jedi are doing a much better job at that than we puny merchants are.