Merchant Archive
Thread: Will NPC Vendor go poof if I give up Merchant skills?
Balkstar
Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:55 am
#27
Ewach wrote:
DragonFire7 wrote:
love how people are so willing to help others exploit merchants
Hmmm... If that were true, one of the forum moderators would delete this thread - haven't seen that happen yet.
Notice you never saw any threads about "how to dupe" or "how to double slice a weapon". Why? Because those WERE exploits.
You stop referring to as an exploit and I'll stop preaching that it's not. Bad design? Yes! Need to be fixed? Yes! Exploit? No! Will I be a Master Vendor Poacher until its fixed? YES!
Why? Because I refuse to leave 63 skill points tied up in a profession that currently lacks the tools to be played properly. (This coming from a person that started out wanting to bea Merchant, but disillusioned I'm not able to do it with the game mechanics available.)
Maybe not delete, but there has been presidence for locking threads like these out. Just ask Garva.
It is an exploit of a bug in the code SOE has confirmed and will be fixed at a future date. I would suggest that future exploiters take heed and ignore the yahoos that said that its perfectly fine to exploit the profession away. They are, after all, not looking after your best interest in the game. All they want is mindless followers.
BountyBlunter
Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:02 am
#28
Ewach wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
Can we PLEASE not have this same debate again!
/extends White Flag of Peace
...
Quoted from DocSavag's Guide to the Merchant Profession
" I have all these skills, now what happens if I give them up? Right now due to an oversight in the code it is possible to surrender all of your merchant skills and not lose any vendors or real functionality. You lose the ability to add new vendors, change adbarking or re-register the vendors. But everything continue to work as it did before. The SWG Development Team has confirmed with us that this is not the intended behavior of the game and that it will be fixed in an upcoming publish to require you to maintain your skills in order to continue to operate vendors as a merchant. Until then many merchants consider using vendors without skills to be unfair and would suggest that you don't do it. Let your own conscience be your guide. "
I think that is a good way of putting it myself, although what you said about a specific sticky about the subject rather than adding it to the guide could have more of an impact. However we do have a point of reference already, if people choose to read the guide to the profession (even browse the highlights to find the answer) before actually asking that question it shouldn't be a problem..
p4Samwise
Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:07 am
#29
That's just because they become flamefests - flamefests get locked on sight. "Exploit" threads always get deleted on sight.
Balkstar wrote:
Maybe not delete, but there has been presidence for locking threads like these out. Just ask Garva.
Athlon
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:13 pm
#30
I keep seeing people go on about how Merchant is the only profession where you keep the skills after you give up the profession. These people couldn't be more wrong.
A Merchant's skill is being able to placevendors (and other stuff, but the placing of merchants is always the biggest issue). The vendor is the final product. If you master weaponsmith, make a wack of great weapons then give it up do all your weapons disappear? If you master armorsmith, make a wack of great armor then give it up does all your armor disappear? Of course not. Your product stays. Doesn't make sense for it to go.
Let's even look at a RL example. You start a company, run it a while, hire the people you need to do what you do, then some day you retire. Does the business go poof? I sure hope not, otherwise what am I doing it for. You pay people to run your business for you. Doesn't take a fancy education or important skills to write a check, and heck, you can pay people to do that for you too.Admitidly your business might not run as well without you personally overseeing the day to day operations but it still runs and many run well.
If you drop Merchant skills then you lose the ability to make changes, updates, and many other useful things. That's the penalty for giving it up.
As mentioned earlier it does seem to me that those screaming exploit are small in number but loud in voice. They are screaming exploit every chance they can get and without even understanding why they are screaming it.
I have two toons on two servers. One is a Combat Medic/Rifleman who likes to dabble in merchandising his meds and poisons. CM/Rifleman takes 247 points so obviously no room for merchant skills (it's bad enough I had to give up Surveying IV, my favorite skill in the game), poaching merchant as it's called was the only answer and to me a good answer. My other toon is an Architect/DE who keeps merchant skills because as a pure crafter wants to be able to modify his vendors with demand and keep a nice shop running, giving up the skills would make him slow to respond to the market and potentially misleading to customers which is just bad for business.
Cpt. Omeda <GIMP>: Master Rifleman, Combat Medic
Efack Adate: Master Artisan, Architect, Droid Engineer
DragonScout
Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:17 pm
#31
If you can still see that post, it was not deleted. closed is different then deleted. Go back through and try to find any posts on how to duplicate credits. Or how to double slice. You won't find them. Those get deleted pretty fast by the moderators.
I think this should have its very own sticky. One stating the facts and pretty clear about what it is about.
I didn't answer this guys question to have to listen to people like balkstar flame people. The guy asked a question, I answered it. It didn't need to turn into a big long discussion. They could have just ignored it. If balkstar or people like him don't like the truth, that is their problem and if they can't keep their tempers under control they should be banned from the forums. It is pretty simple. Flaming and bashing and misinformation should never be an acceptable form of discussion.
I think this should have its very own sticky. One stating the facts and pretty clear about what it is about.
I didn't answer this guys question to have to listen to people like balkstar flame people. The guy asked a question, I answered it. It didn't need to turn into a big long discussion. They could have just ignored it. If balkstar or people like him don't like the truth, that is their problem and if they can't keep their tempers under control they should be banned from the forums. It is pretty simple. Flaming and bashing and misinformation should never be an acceptable form of discussion.
DingoBoi
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:15 pm
#32
Ewach wrote:
DingoBoi wrote:
to paraprase a dev, "it's not something we ban for, but we don't recommend doing it',
sounds like and exploit to me.
end
of
story
No - it's NOT the "end of story" - sorry but you can't "paraphrase" a DEV - you were asked to show a quote where a DEV said it was an exploit - you can not do that.
Why is that?Because it is NOT AN EXPLOIT.
You are absolutely right. i couldn't show a post refering to this. Luckily balkstar found the one I was referring to:
"This is going to be fixed, so I do not recommend doing it, and just because its not something people are being banned for it is still exploiting the system. Since this post is describing an exploit of sorts it will be closed."
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=game_guides&message.id=130200
There ya go. dev called it an exploit.
end of story
*edit: gee, i love the mentality of you exploiters when presented with facts you cannot deny.... just one star it.. /lol.
Message Edited by DingoBoi on 07-02-2004 10:43 PM
Balkstar
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:20 pm
#33
DragonScout wrote:
If you can still see that post, it was not deleted. closed is different then deleted. Go back through and try to find any posts on how to duplicate credits. Or how to double slice. You won't find them. Those get deleted pretty fast by the moderators.
I think this should have its very own sticky. One stating the facts and pretty clear about what it is about.
I didn't answer this guys question to have to listen to people like balkstar flame people. The guy asked a question, I answered it. It didn't need to turn into a big long discussion. They could have just ignored it. If balkstar or people like him don't like the truth, that is their problem and if they can't keep their tempers under control they should be banned from the forums. It is pretty simple. Flaming and bashing and misinformation should never be an acceptable form of discussion.
Thing is that Garva said the magic word: "exploit". What SOE's guidlines are to exploit description postsare unknown, even to you. They may have, for all intents and purposes kept that thread live as a warning to others not to doit, as theyknew thatSOE was not going tofix the code anytime soon.
Thats rich that you say we are misinforming people. Truth is that even if you give the caviate that the code will be fixed, you still say exploit away. You are truely horrendous. All you point to is the facts on how to exploit. Not really helping anyone there. And it is not the same as telling the truth.
The truth is that Garva has stated it as an exploit. TH says this exploit will be fixed, because all players were never intended on getting vendors for free. It is you that help perpetuate exploiting to the unknowing, and therefore it is YOU that needs to be banned from these forums, not law-abiding players of the game trying despirately to save this profession.
Dremvek
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:31 pm
#34
First, I agree that the vendor poaching needs to be fixed.
However, I don't put as much weight on GarVa calling it an exploit as JustG or TH. When I hear it from one of their posts, I'll believe it.
I think it falls into the same category as stuff not working as intended. If you believe taking advantage of stuff not working as intended is an exploit, then I'm going to suggest that a large portion of you are exploiters.
Doc buffs for 2200+ points for 3 hours was never intended.
Armor with 80% kinetic resists was never intended.
These are just 2 instances of things I've seen in the dev tracker over the past couple of weeks, and have been labelled as stuff that's going to be getting fixed. In the meantime, however, people are still going to use powerful doc buffs and 80% armor without penalty.
I feel that multiple vendors falls into the same category. While I have never had more vendors than I have had the skills to use, I don't feel that jumping in and calling others exploiters simply because they are using a well-known game mechanic that isn't working as intended is justified.
Balkstar
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:34 pm
#35
Athlon wrote:
I keep seeing people go on about how Merchant is the only profession where you keep the skills after you give up the profession. These people couldn't be more wrong.
A Merchant's skill is being able to placevendors (and other stuff, but the placing of merchants is always the biggest issue). The vendor is the final product. If you master weaponsmith, make a wack of great weapons then give it up do all your weapons disappear? If you master armorsmith, make a wack of great armor then give it up does all your armor disappear? Of course not. Your product stays. Doesn't make sense for it to go.
Let's even look at a RL example. You start a company, run it a while, hire the people you need to do what you do, then some day you retire. Does the business go poof? I sure hope not, otherwise what am I doing it for. You pay people to run your business for you. Doesn't take a fancy education or important skills to write a check, and heck, you can pay people to do that for you too.Admitidly your business might not run as well without you personally overseeing the day to day operations but it still runs and many run well.
If you drop Merchant skills then you lose the ability to make changes, updates, and many other useful things. That's the penalty for giving it up.
As mentioned earlier it does seem to me that those screaming exploit are small in number but loud in voice. They are screaming exploit every chance they can get and without even understanding why they are screaming it.
I have two toons on two servers. One is a Combat Medic/Rifleman who likes to dabble in merchandising his meds and poisons. CM/Rifleman takes 247 points so obviously no room for merchant skills (it's bad enough I had to give up Surveying IV, my favorite skill in the game), poaching merchant as it's called was the only answer and to me a good answer. My other toon is an Architect/DE who keeps merchant skills because as a pure crafter wants to be able to modify his vendors with demand and keep a nice shop running, giving up the skills would make him slow to respond to the market and potentially misleading to customers which is just bad for business.
Cpt. Omeda : Master Rifleman, Combat Medic
Efack Adate: Master Artisan, Architect, Droid Engineer
And the misinformed keep coming out of the woodwork. Someone who obviously has never played a skill based game before.
If the game allows for the reclamation of skillpoints to be redistributed to other professions, a cost must occur to the user that will disallow the playergaining access to the attibute modifiers and dedicated tools that are associated with the profession, as if they were never in the profession in the first place. That is not the system we have now because of the bug in the code of merchant. but it soon will be. There must be a sum zero gain in order to be a fair gaming system.
If you truly wanted to follow your real life example that you stated, wouldn't it make more sense to hand it off to an actual player that has merchant skills as well instead of some automaton dummy? Yeah that's how to perpetuate a successful buisness: hand it off to a metalbox (aka. Coke Machine vendor)that has no thought processes. You'll forgive me if I don't buy stock in your company.
p4Samwise
Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:57 pm
#36
So it makes more sense to hand it off to the actual player so that the actual player can hand it off to the automaton dummy in the exact same way that you would have? I can make a strong business case for eliminating the middleman in that process.
Balkstar wrote:
If you truly wanted to follow your real life example that you stated, wouldn't it make more sense to hand it off to an actual player that has merchant skills as well instead of some automaton dummy? Yeah that's how to perpetuate a successful buisness: hand it off to a metalbox (aka. Coke Machine vendor)that has no thought processes. You'll forgive me if I don't buy stock in your company.
Balkstar
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:06 pm
#37
p4Samwise wrote:
So it makes more sense to hand it off to the actual player so that the actual player can hand it off to the automaton dummy in the exact same way that you would have? I can make a strong business case for eliminating the middleman in that process.
Balkstar wrote:
If you truly wanted to follow your real life example that you stated, wouldn't it make more sense to hand it off to an actual player that has merchant skills as well instead of some automaton dummy? Yeah that's how to perpetuate a successful buisness: hand it off to a metalbox (aka. Coke Machine vendor)that has no thought processes. You'll forgive me if I don't buy stock in your company.
OK You lost me and the rest of the audience. Since when did the ultimate end to your chain have to stop at the vendor running the buisness? They cant stock themsleves. They cant price objects. They cant accept offered goods. What good are they to run a buisness if you as the merchant hand off all responsibility to it? Again in the game his RL scenario made no sense.
If you want to divest yourself of your merchant responsibilities, wouldn't it make more sense to hand it off to another merchant player?
p4Samwise
Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:20 pm
#38
Sorry, I'm probably not visualizing the same thing you are, but it struck me as extremely funny to envision the following exchange in-game.
Imagine, if you will, Joe, a combat type with composite armor and a slightly vacant stare. And Quincy, a prissy type in finely tailored clothes with the "Master Merchant" title floating in the air over his head.
As the curtain comes up, we see Joe loading items into a coke machine. Holocron splinters, bits of bone, crud like that. He opens a door in the machine, puts the item inside, pushes a button, and the machine sucks it up. Repeat. Perhaps he grunts a bit as he's doing this. His back is to us.
EnterQuincy, stage left.
Q: Stop! What do you think you're doing?
J: (turning around, half a nuna drumstick hanging out of his mouth) Urk?
J: (turning around, half a nuna drumstick hanging out of his mouth) Urk?
Quincy strides around to stand next to the coke machine.
Q: You aren't qualified to operate that machine! Why, you have no concept of the nuances of supply and demand, economic quantum theory, human resource allotment, or any of the other benefits of my schooling?
J: (swallowing the drumstick) Oh.
Q: Why, you stand to lose millions of credits by loading items into that machine the way you're doing it!
J: (scratching his head) Gosh, I wouldn't want to do that! What can I do?
Q: Lucky for you I happened by! I'll tell you what: you pay me a twenty per cent commision and I'll take care of all of this for you, with the benefits of my vastly superior education and intellect.
J: Sounds like a bargain! What do I do?
Q: I'll handle the details. Just "offer" the items to this vendor.
Joe nods enthusiastically, and continues what he was doing before, with an important variation: he now pushes a different button on the coke machine. Quincy looks on approvingly. Once the coke machine is fully loaded, he nods.
Q: See, wasn't that much easier than what you were doing?
J: Boy, I'll say! So now you'll handle the hard part, and when it's done I'll get the money?
Q: Yes, minus my 20% cut, plus the 5% for bank transfer fees.
J: Wow, what a deal! Thanks! (he strides off)
Quincy waves at Joe, smiling, and then turns his attention to the coke machine.
Q: Now to put my years of schooling to work.
He pushes a button on the coke machine. An item pops out of the door. He takes the item from the door, pushes another button, and puts the item back in. The process then repeats with a different item.
The curtain falls.
Fin
DingoBoi
Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:13 pm
#39
Athlon wrote:
I keep seeing people go on about how Merchant is the only profession where you keep the skills after you give up the profession. These people couldn't be more wrong. We couldn't be more right.
A Merchant's skill is being able to placevendors (and other stuff, but the placing of merchants is always the biggest issue). The vendor is the final product.Vendor is not a product like a weapon.. it is part of the skillIf you master weaponsmith, make a wack of great weapons then give it up do all your weapons disappear? If you master armorsmith, make a wack of great armor then give it up does all your armor disappear? Of course not. Your product stays. Doesn't make sense for it to go. You are right
Let's even look at a RL example. You start a company, run it a while, hire the people you need to do what you do, then some day you retire. Does the business go poof? I sure hope not, otherwise what am I doing it for. You pay people to run your business for you. Doesn't take a fancy education or important skills to write a check, and heck, you can pay people to do that for you too.Admitidly your business might not run as well without you personally overseeing the day to day operations but it still runs and many run well. This is a completely flawed analogy. You state it yourself when you say, "you pay people to run your business for you". merchant is more similar to 'manager' position than 'clerk' position. If you as 'manager' quit.. you would turn it over to another 'manager', not a 'clerk'. Meaning, you turn it over to another merchant, not the damn hired help.
If you drop Merchant skills then you lose the ability to make changes, updates, and many other useful things. That's the penalty for giving it up. The penalty is that you are free to use the bazaar for your continued sales... at least that is what is intended.
As mentioned earlier it does seem to me that those screaming exploit are small in number but loud in voice. They are screaming exploit every chance they can get and without even understanding why they are screaming it. Seems, you are the one who doesn't know what you are screaming about. We are very clear on our issues. And it is an exploit as PROVEN with reference to a dev post.
I have two toons on two servers. One is a Combat Medic/Rifleman who likes to dabble in merchandising his meds and poisons. CM/Rifleman takes 247 points so obviously no room for merchant skills (it's bad enough I had to give up Surveying IV, my favorite skill in the game), poaching merchant as it's called was the only answer and to me a good answer. then you are exploiting scum. The game is meant to be limited in what you can do. If you want to be master in both those, then you can be merchant, if you want merchant, don't be masters in both of those. My other toon is an Architect/DE who keeps merchant skills because as a pure crafter wants to be able to modify his vendors with demand and keep a nice shop running, giving up the skills would make him slow to respond to the market and potentially misleading to customers which is just bad for business.
Cpt. Omeda : Master Rifleman, Combat Medic
Efack Adate: Master Artisan, Architect, Droid Engineer