Merchant Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: Galaxy-Wide Vendor Search
DarkJedi49
Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:34 pm
#352
I never thought this topic could generate a biography from someone. If I see the monitor is filled with words before seeing the next post I rarely read it. But you are entitled to say what you want.
Dollie
Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:42 pm
#353
Nice comments from people and well thought out, for me I put the vendor in the city mall and advertise so everybody benefits, foot traffic is everything. But I won't let my vendor be seen if/when they give the option because my prices are low for locals. We hate people who buy our stuff for resale somewhere else. I am Master weaponsmith as well as Merchant and in our city we keep our prices low. To enable the guild/city members to have some of the better stuff I finally pulled things off the vendor and store elsewhere for them. I don't need lots of money since I don't have room to put anything I might buy. I didneedto buy harvesters recently and it was frustrating trying to find some. I can understand wanting a global way to find these things. I spent a whole night shopping and that wasn't comparing prices it was just trying to find the things. I can't find geo loot either. I know it is somewhere on some vendor but I don't have a whole night to look. I have a business to run. Some of the insane prices for weapons I have seen might be lowered a lot. The economy is definitely going to be shaken up.Weaponsmiths seem to be in favor from some of the posts I have read, but these merchant posts show that the devs have a few changes to make hehe. On the whole it is a good idea for shoppers, but I assume the devs will read the merchant posts and respond to them. If they don't we can always go on strike and remove all vendors.
Bhasayate
Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:35 pm
#354
Dollie wrote:Nice comments from people and well thought out, for me I put the vendor in the city mall and advertise so everybody benefits, foot traffic is everything. But I won't let my vendor be seen if/when they give the option because my prices are low for locals. We hate people who buy our stuff for resale somewhere else. I am Master weaponsmith as well as Merchant and in our city we keep our prices low. To enable the guild/city members to have some of the better stuff I finally pulled things off the vendor and store elsewhere for them. I don't need lots of money since I don't have room to put anything I might buy. I did need to buy harvesters recently and it was frustrating trying to find some. I can understand wanting a global way to find these things. I spent a whole night shopping and that wasn't comparing prices it was just trying to find the things. I can't find geo loot either. I know it is somewhere on some vendor but I don't have a whole night to look. I have a business to run. Some of the insane prices for weapons I have seen might be lowered a lot. The economy is definitely going to be shaken up. Weaponsmiths seem to be in favor from some of the posts I have read, but these merchant posts show that the devs have a few changes to make hehe. On the whole it is a good idea for shoppers, but I assume the devs will read the merchant posts and respond to them. If they don't we can always go on strike and remove all vendors.
yeah. if they fubar the game, i'll put a punch of useless crap on the bazaar, probably.
Travin64068
Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:26 am
#355
I believe the main issue against an automatic retrieval system is that I help supply a mall with a RL friend. There are certain guilds that I choose not to do business with, and they are banned from the mall. From what I've seen with these new changes, they will be able to buy items from the vendors in a mall and retrieve them while being banned from the shop.
- Travin
Nitwit
Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:56 pm
#356
Combat classes got jacked, big time, not just PvP. I don't remember the patch number, just that it was The Patch. Before, you could hit danto in a solo group and make the money necessary for your grind or whatever. Anyway, once group money was removed, the input of cash into the "system" was tightened down to just a trickle. Crafters and Docs do not produce the money, combat characters do. Crafter and Docs, however, have not changed their prices for their products. It is as if we were back before The Patch. As a combat character now, the only way I make money is selling Krayt items or CA/AA or whatever loot I come across.
Now don't get me wrong, I do thing there is and wassome serious inflation. The devs needed to shut the money supply off, smiliar to how the Federal Reserve increases interest rates.Perhapsa slow and gradual adjust to the group money bonus would have been better. However, my whole point is that globalization or galatictization would increase the competition and decrease the price. A plus to be sure. My example of Armorsmiths is just that, an example. They are not the sole class which has this problem (at least not on my server).
Don't get me mixed up here. Price is what guides the market. For those of you who have taken that econ class, you've probably heard about Adam Smith and the Invisiable Hand. Sure you have different levels of quality, but even then, price still guides the system. Consumers will not pay a higher prices for the same products. However, in the current system, unless you spend 5 hours searching and you talk to your guildies, you can't even tell where the best stuff is - much less try and compare it.
As for Walmart, my anology was apparently not clear. I'm saying that Walmart had to start out small. They weren't just always the biggest place around. They started small. And they had their big competitors too. It wasn't a walk in the park. It is the same thing with small vendors in this game. Sure you start out small, with one harvestor and a small house and one vendor and the like. But soon you grow into something bigger and better. Undercutting is just a part of life really, you just have to learn how to beat it.
See, people the entrepreneurial drive. My first character is combat oriented. However, my second is not. He is a Master Doc who sells his own buffs. So I have to compete with serveral large guilds which make great products, I'll do anything to make my product more displayed on the market cause I spent the time, grinded up my doc, found the resources and harvested my self, etc. All I see this as is opportunity. Easier to get my name out, less overhead costs in having to make large houses right on the build line, and less vendors to pay too. It is a win win all around. But, you have to be willing to put the time in. And that is the thing. People don't want to change; they like their system setup as it is. They are they large business, the walmart, because they have already specialized. They make their sole product. However, this leaves the rest of the market available to the small guy who is just starting.
GanymedePharuu
Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:16 pm
#357
might as well add my thoughts to this whole issue.
i run the largest power company on sunrunner, possibly the largest in the game. i have 6 vendors around the galaxy and i keep them continuously well stocked with radioactive power for a very reasonable price.
i enjoy playing this aspect of the game, running a successful business, but i work hard for the money so to speak.
i devote a good deal of my play time to making my company a good one.
i worked hard to build my company up to where it is, and i'll fight like hell to keep it successful, but i'll be VERY upset if it goes under due to drastic economic changes brought about by this "player-friendly" idea.
merchants are players too.
i don't see this as having any positive impact on the game.
of course shopping around takes time, and it's frustrating finding empty vendors, but i don't think the market is so bad that everyone needs to spend 3 hours looking for something.
basically what i'm saying is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
there are plenty of crafters and merchants who are as devoted to their companies as i am, and keep their vendors continuously stocked. when you find a vendor that is well stocked mark it down, save the waypoint, and when your friends ask, "hey where can i find a such and such?" you say, "hey i know a great vendor! lemme send you the WP".
if everyone did this there would be no need for a galaxy-wide search.
i can't stress enough how much merchants appreciate word of mouth advertising.
there is no need for this.
i run the largest power company on sunrunner, possibly the largest in the game. i have 6 vendors around the galaxy and i keep them continuously well stocked with radioactive power for a very reasonable price.
i enjoy playing this aspect of the game, running a successful business, but i work hard for the money so to speak.
i devote a good deal of my play time to making my company a good one.
i worked hard to build my company up to where it is, and i'll fight like hell to keep it successful, but i'll be VERY upset if it goes under due to drastic economic changes brought about by this "player-friendly" idea.
merchants are players too.
i don't see this as having any positive impact on the game.
of course shopping around takes time, and it's frustrating finding empty vendors, but i don't think the market is so bad that everyone needs to spend 3 hours looking for something.
basically what i'm saying is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
there are plenty of crafters and merchants who are as devoted to their companies as i am, and keep their vendors continuously stocked. when you find a vendor that is well stocked mark it down, save the waypoint, and when your friends ask, "hey where can i find a such and such?" you say, "hey i know a great vendor! lemme send you the WP".
if everyone did this there would be no need for a galaxy-wide search.
i can't stress enough how much merchants appreciate word of mouth advertising.
there is no need for this.
DocSavag
Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:50 pm
#358
Consumers will not pay a higher prices for the same product
This statement is false. Anyone who has ever bought a battery or a package of two aspirins at a convienience store knows that. Prices matter but location, reputation and convienience matter as well. Right now in SWG we have those things. If you make everything purchased from one location only price remains.
Global searching is fine as long as it doesn't make location, reputation and convienience irrelevent.
This statement is false. Anyone who has ever bought a battery or a package of two aspirins at a convienience store knows that. Prices matter but location, reputation and convienience matter as well. Right now in SWG we have those things. If you make everything purchased from one location only price remains.
Global searching is fine as long as it doesn't make location, reputation and convienience irrelevent.
Nitwit
Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:36 pm
#359
DocSavag wrote:
Consumers will not pay a higher prices for the same product
This statement is false. Anyone who has ever bought a battery or a package of two aspirins at a convienience store knows that. Prices matter but location, reputation and convienience matter as well. Right now in SWG we have those things. If you make everything purchased from one location only price remains.
Global searching is fine as long as it doesn't make location, reputation and convienience irrelevent.
Do what you will with your money...
Before you discredit price, do some research on Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, and the Invisiable Hand. The other ideas, location reputation and convienience are a part of the equasion. But they are small potatoes compare to price.
Phaelyn
Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:29 pm
#360
Nitwit wrote:
DocSavag wrote:
Consumers will not pay a higher prices for the same product
This statement is false. Anyone who has ever bought a battery or a package of two aspirins at a convienience store knows that. Prices matter but location, reputation and convienience matter as well. Right now in SWG we have those things. If you make everything purchased from one location only price remains.
Global searching is fine as long as it doesn't make location, reputation and convienience irrelevent.
Do what you will with your money...
Before you discredit price, do some research on Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, and the Invisiable Hand. The other ideas, location reputation and convienience are a part of the equasion. But they are small potatoes compare to price.
You certainly place a lot of faith on an Economic paper writen in 1776. While many of the ideals put forth by Smith are indeed universal and timeless, Adam Smith NEVER anticipated the advent of organizations such as our oft used example, Walmart.
Point in fact, Smith in some places supports the very idea we have presented, and you have denounced.
/QUOTE: The increase of stock, which raises wages, tends to lower profit. When the stocks of many rich merchants are turned into the same trade, their mutual competition naturally tends to lower its profit; and when there is a like increase of stock in all the different trades carried on in the same society, the same competition must produce the same effect in them all. /ENDQUOTE
Read literally, the more people sell the same item, the less inherent value that item has, and sells for less. Mind you, the author denotes only the loss of profit - But does NOT factor increasing costs, a larger distribution system and hyper increased competition - He couldn't, for he wrote this piece far in advance of the concept of the "Supermarket" or fully automated production systems.
/QUOTE: The acquisition of new territory, or of new branches of trade, may sometimes raise the profits of stock, and with them the interest of money, even in a country which is fast advancing in the acquisition of riches. The stock of the country not being sufficient for the whole accession of business, which such acquisitions present to the different people among whom it is divided, is applied to those particular branches only which afford the greatest profit. Part of what had before been employed in other trades is necessarily withdrawn from them, and turned into some of the new and more profitable ones. In all those old trades, therefore, the competition comes to be less than before. The market comes to be less fully supplied with many different sorts of goods. Their price necessarily rises more or less, and yields a greater profit to those who deal in them /ENDQUOTE
Here Smith describes the exact conditions many of us have said the change would have wrought. With increased direct competition, "normalization" does indeed occur as many people flock to make the same products. But the normalization, as specified above, dictates that people will flock to professions were profit is the greatest. With more competition, prices and profit fall. But the areas where there is no competition anymore, prices and profit increase. Exactly as we said - When the small crafters get put out of the market, prices will increase as monopolies begin to form, and variety of products will decrease - Only certain items will be made, since they are the most profitable..
Smith contends that monopolies will NOT form - And to a point, this is true. Through governmental regulation, merchants were protected from the Monopoly. However, in the GAME context, we have no such regulating circumstances. Monopolies are quite possible, and if the change were put into effect as they were original stated, not only possible, but probable.
/QUOTE: But the annual revenue of every society is always precisely equal to the exchangeable value of the whole annual produce of its industry, or rather is precisely the same thing with that exchangeable value. As every individual, therefore, endeavours as much as he can both to employ his capital in the support of domestic industry, and so to direct that industry that its produce may be of the greatest value; every individual necessarily labours to render the annual revenue of the society as great as he can. He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. Nor is it always the worse for the society that it was no part of it. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it. I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good. It is an affectation, indeed, not very common among merchants, and very few words need be employed in dissuading them from it. /ENDQUOTE
I guess Smith DOES agree with us after all.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 02-17-2005 08:37 PM
Fidgiter
Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:07 pm
#361
If I could give 6 stars you'd have it. VERY impressive counter
Phaelyn wrote:
...I guess Smith DOES agree with us after all.
Andymantium
Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:18 pm
#362
Fidgiter wrote:
If I could give 6 stars you'd have it. VERY impressive counter
Phaelyn wrote:
...I guess Smith DOES agree with us after all.
/agree
Well written, Phaelyn
Taenia
Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:45 pm
#363
Nitwit wrote:
As for Walmart, my anology was apparently not clear. I'm saying that Walmart had to start out small. They weren't just always the biggest place around. They started small. And they had their big competitors too. It wasn't a walk in the park. It is the same thing with small vendors in this game. Sure you start out small, with one harvestor and a small house and one vendor and the like. But soon you grow into something bigger and better. Undercutting is just a part of life really, you just have to learn how to beat it.
See, people the entrepreneurial drive.
And how does this happen? You search for the resources to make high-quality products, you scout a convenient location with plenty of consumer traffic, you create a storefront that attracts customers, you price productat a point acceptable to your client base, you maintain consistent stock levels and offer variety, you advertise, you provide excellent service to new and returning patrons. The system changes as planned would have taken away consideration for *any*of these factors (factors of considerable importance in real-life business, I might add) except quality and price.
This is a game which people play to have fun. They don't have to "learn how to beat it" when they can just quit, save $15 a month and do something else. Could it be that consumers are having trouble finding product because there are fewer dedicated crafters? Players who don't feel it's worth their time to craft will change professionsor quit the game outright. Thishas already been demonstrated repeatedlyin the Entertainer field. If you take away the things that make crafting and marketing fun and challenging for many players (see the paragraph above), and in addition create a market where pricinggoes so low that profit margins for the "average" crafter are virtually nonexistent, you will have fewer and fewer crafters and merchants, and it will be even more difficult than now to find what you're looking for.
Nitwit
Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:17 pm
#364
First, I must say that your response was quite excellect. Usually when I get into a economics discussion, people disappear. But you understand free market theory. So I have enjoyed this...But I don't want to let you win either
I don't accept your premise that smith never saw a "walmart." No,Smith saw the rise and fall European trade companies, state sponsered compaines, which are monopolies. Also, he saw the English Colonial Companies and how they affected money, trade, labor, and resource levels in Europe, the Caribbean, East Asia, and North America. I mean, these compainies are the ultimate monopoly, a government one. And yes, "I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good." But this isn't a public good. It is your products, my products. All we are doing is inventing the "Internet" of SWG. All of a sudden, you don't need a to have a shop, or pay employees, or whatever. This just helps smaller guys because they don't have to have a shop, or pay employees, or whatever. Understand? It loosens the requirments for a small vendor to compete directly with other vendors.