Merchant Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: Galaxy-Wide Vendor Search
Phaelyn wrote:
Nitwit wrote:
First, I must say that your response was quite excellect. Usually when I get into a economics discussion, people disappear. But you understand free market theory. So I have enjoyed this...But I don't want to let you win either
My parents would be so proud my Business degree is worthwhile SOMEWHERE!
I don't accept your premise that smith never saw a "walmart." No,Smith saw the rise and fall European trade companies, state sponsered compaines, which are monopolies. Also, he saw the English Colonial Companies and how they affected money, trade, labor, and resource levels in Europe, the Caribbean, East Asia, and North America. I mean, these compainies are the ultimate monopoly, a government one. And yes, "I have never known much good done by those who affected to trade for the public good." But this isn't a public good. It is your products, my products. All we are doing is inventing the "Internet" of SWG. All of a sudden, you don't need a to have a shop, or pay employees, or whatever. This just helps smaller guys because they don't have to have a shop, or pay employees, or whatever. Understand? It loosens the requirments for a small vendor to compete directly with other vendors.
I understand *in theory* that this is a possible scenario. But as an illustration of the good it would do in a Game environment, I don't think it will hold true. You see, the factors as everyone have perceived them really aren't going away, they are in actuality being *hidden*. A Merchant in game will STILL need to have a shop - it will just be in a spare room in their house(Vendor placement). They will still need to pay employees(Vendor maintenance), and they will still have the same resource requirements as they did before.
What the proposed changes really would have done is increase visibility - But at the cost of several dynamics that *many* current Merchants happen to enjoy. Location is a truism both in AND out of game - The closer you are to a Starport first, and to a Shuttle second has (since they were implemented) influenced exactly where our Consumers would go to find goods. Many of the most successful crafters in game aren't succesful because they have a superior good (Far from it, most are just average) - they are that way because they took time (And/or spent credits) to establish their location. The real problemhere is NOT that people couldn't find goods - it's that structures and vendors from inactive accounts continue to exist ad infinitum. Instead of making a global purchase option - Imagine the effect of actually deleting long gone accounts. As their defunct businesses go away, the REAL market would start to appear - Not the imaginary one there is based on cancelled accounts that happened to be owned by a merchant.
The changes would indeed create an "opportunity" for the lesser known CURRENT crafter - People who have been hindered by bad location, but have been in long enough to amass the resources needed to craft on par with the "best". But to imagine that a NEW crafter would find it easier is impossible to quantify. They would start out from scratch, without the "best" resources or equipment - Their product would be inferior from day one. Certainly, they could price their wares lower - But since this IS a game, players tend to have an "I only want the best" mentality, and will bypass a lower priced item with less stats in favor of much higher priced items with "uber" (Man, I hate that word) stats. It's fairly evident that with the handicap from the start, few will want to enter the profession. So by increasing visibility the way it was proposed, the crafting professions all start to seperated into 2 categories - The "haves" and the "Have Nots". The haves will dominate the market - The have nots (Unless they buy a bunch of Ebay credits to get on par automatically) will be relegated to an "Afterhought" purchase -The ones we buy from if the Haves are out of stock.
A last word about the Internet, since others have brought that in as their examples of why the proposed system would have been superior. If you look around the Internet, you will see that MANY of the more successful Internet businesses are merely extensions of the established "brick and mortar" businesses. They are able to offer such good Internet sales due to the fact that their more traditional business models have garnered them the ability to do BOTH. Unlike the Internet people are saying is how SWG's business model should be. Point of contention - Traditional shops augment Internet shops - Having merely the "Internet" would never work.
this is true regardless of whether the product is more prevalent or not by using the common galactic market... it just wont take so long for the consumer to find the superior products.
also, the new crafters DO have a market to reach out to and that is the NEW player... who doesnt want to pay a great deal for decent goods and servicesand doesnt yet NEED the best there is... this will help them find those ok products and purcase them faster also.
GraySeven wrote:
Sweet. But for all the research and education, don't forget that all prices in this game are set on the Perception of Worth, and not any Real Value. Their are only limited "actual" costs (such as Maintenance and Harvester efficiencies) and as such most of any item cost is nothing more than what the seller believes an item to be worth.
This is not true because there is an opportunity cost and thus not limited to only actual costs. The opportunity cost of crafting is comes at the exense of the ability to hunt and gather or run missions. The opportunity cost of using a resource comes at the expense of what that resource could have been sold for. Opportunity costs (particularly of the first variety) had a big impact on the economy as many crafters found that blowing stuff up was far more profitable and fun.
In the time of the "Solo Group" phase I saw ALOT of crafters hang up their tools and pick up a gun. The opportunity cost of their being a crafter was far too high because of the income they were missing out on because of their choice. As they left the market vendors went bare as the supply contracted making it harder to find what you needed. The economy has slowly been recovering since then.
Rsern wrote:
Phaelyn wrote:
The changes would indeed create an "opportunity" for the lesser known CURRENT crafter - People who have been hindered by bad location, but have been in long enough to amass the resources needed to craft on par with the "best". But to imagine that a NEW crafter would find it easier is impossible to quantify. They would start out from scratch, without the "best" resources or equipment - Their product would be inferior from day one. Certainly, they could price their wares lower - But since this IS a game, players tend to have an "I only want the best" mentality, and will bypass a lower priced item with less stats in favor of much higher priced items with "uber" (Man, I hate that word) stats. It's fairly evident that with the handicap from the start, few will want to enter the profession. So by increasing visibility the way it was proposed, the crafting professions all start to seperated into 2 categories - The "haves" and the "Have Nots". The haves will dominate the market - The have nots (Unless they buy a bunch of Ebay credits to get on par automatically) will be relegated to an "Afterhought" purchase -The ones we buy from if the Haves are out of stock.
this is true regardless of whether the product is more prevalent or not by using the common galactic market... it just wont take so long for the consumer to find the superior products.
This is a point of contention that at this moment is purely speculative. People cry out for the change with the battle cry "We will find what we need faster". Is this the truth? Only time will tell. The reverse potential is ALSO not able to be proven without implementation - That theory is that with the opening of the Galactic Bazaar, people will need to sift through MANY pages of goods to find exactly what they seek. The only time difference is based on travel at that point - And with 60 second starports and shuttles, it is even less of a burden.
Many have said Price will be the determining factor - And it IS - when used in conjunction with the quality of the product. I, and many like me, will bypass an inferior good in favor of a superior one. The only way this will not become the norm is if the price range is TOO great. If a Weapon is 100 damage priced at 5k, and 150 damage priced at 6k - People WILL buy the 6k higher damage in favor of the slight markup. But if the numbers were 5k and 150k, THEN people would buy on price alone.
also, the new crafters DO have a market to reach out to and that is the NEW player... who doesnt want to pay a great deal for decent goods and servicesand doesnt yet NEED the best there is... this will help them find those ok products and purcase them faster also.
While I will grant you that point - Consider that the NEW player is NOT the rule - He is the exception. Once the new player begins to understand the processes in the game, and begins to have the sameneeds veterans have, they will move away from the new crafters' goods. Will the limited duration of this "new player - new crafter" dynamicbe great enough to elevate the crafter to the level he needs to be to compete? The answer is unknown, and can't be until put into practice.
GraySeven wrote:
/stands back and lets the economics-educated big guns keep firing
Sweet. But for all the research and education, don't forget that all prices in this game are set on the Perception of Worth, and not any Real Value. Their are only limited "actual" costs (such as Maintenance and Harvester efficiencies) and as such most of any item cost is nothing more than what the seller believes an item to be worth.
Look up opportunity cost. Ah, never mind. Here is the defination: "cost of a business decision made:the cost of a commercial decision regarded as the value of the alternative that is forgone." Basically, if you choose to do something, or not do something, you have to consider what you could have done instead.
Inflation can not happen here, as the value of the credit never changes. Instead, price changes are made based on peoples perception of what outside changes will do to the economy.
Ah, sorry man. Inflation can and has been happening. The Encarta Dictionary defines inflation as "higher prices:an increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices." A simple example of this is the price of buffs. On Chilastra, the average price of buffs before the devs took out the group money loot was about 10K a buff. However, after the combat people lots the ability to make millions of credits quick, the price of buffs increased to 15K!
The only changes that will occur if such a system is put into place will be changes made by individuals based on their perception of what the change will do to them.
There is some truth to this. I believe many established crafter/merchants have got their setup. They spent a heck of a lot of time finding the uber spot, decorating it, and trying to become "visiable" to the average player.Boy, do I understand that! But all of a sudden, the rules of the game change on them. They should be upset because their "advantages" have gone with the wind. However, all this means is that they haveto adapt.
Undercutting, the big demon of this change, could be self-fulfilling as people try to maintain business by making their items more attractive to others. Most prices have settled into an average area, and convienience will always be a factor, even with galactic listing if we still have to travel to pick up an item. Location will matter, and impulse sales will still have just as much chance to happen AS LONG AS ONLY NPC BAZAARS ARE USABLE TO GALACTIC SEARCH.
You are very correct here. While we won't have to have vendors on each planet, we will still have to consider location and decoration for the one shop we have left. I mean, you could have multiple vendors...but it would be a lot of expense for nothing.
I'm glad that the Dev's are taking a good long look at this. Its a good idea that appeared to have a minimum of thought behind it. I look forward to seeing the next version of it.
That said, I am against anything that reduces the need for travel. I'm with those who favor a galactic search, but not galactic purchasing. A galactic search means that you can place a successful vendor somewhere besides the immediate vicinity of Coronet, but if delivery is automatic then nobody will ever go there. I think a huge part of the fun of this game is to see what people have done with their vendor shops.
I have no problem with the idea of riding my speeder to some dank Rori swamp in the middle of nowhere if I know that I will find what I'm looking for. I'd rather spend an hour doing that, than an hour going from abandoned vendor to abandoned vendor in the outskirts of Coronet, and not even find what I want. I quite enjoy going places I've never or rarely been.
For the merchants, perhaps automatic delivery could be available in a high end skillbox.
Then why are you posting here?
Cephalo wrote:
I've always been against having a merchant profession in the first place. I think its more of a basic game function. It's like having a 'driver' profession just to use a vehicle. Therefore, I don't care what happens to the merchent tree.
Andymantium wrote:Then why are you posting here?
Cephalo wrote:
I've always been against having a merchant profession in the first place. I think its more of a basic game function. It's like having a 'driver' profession just to use a vehicle. Therefore, I don't care what happens to the merchent tree.
Because I wanted to weigh in on this particular issue that is important for everyone. I am a merchant BTW, not that I wanted to be one! but I HAD to be one in order to function. It's a very painful subject for us BE's.
Phaelyn wrote:
Nitwit wrote:
Do what you will with your money...
Before you discredit price, do some research on Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, and the Invisiable Hand. The other ideas, location reputation and convienience are a part of the equasion. But they are small potatoes compare to price.
You certainly place a lot of faith on an Economic paper writen in 1776. While many of the ideals put forth by Smith are indeed universal and timeless, Adam Smith NEVER anticipated the advent of organizations such as our oft used example, Walmart.
...
I guess Smith DOES agree with us after all.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 02-17-2005 08:37 PM
LMAO. Absolutely, 100%, pwned.
It's always amusing when people try to rip out some esoteric academic theory they only have a grade-school level knowledge of andsomeone who actually knows what they are talking aboutto set them straight.
Best. Post. Ever.
In the end, even if he does agree with the concepts, you were very accurate in your first statement. While some theory is indeed timeless, talking about economic conditions in an enviornment with tools the original author could never have imagined is like people saying the old men who gave us the right to bear arms given to us a couple of hundred years ago envisioned semi-automatic rifles and assault weapons as "arming" oneself for personal use. It just ain't true.
AO
Cephalo wrote:
Because I wanted to weigh in on this particular issue that is important for everyone. I am a merchant BTW, not that I wanted to be one! but I HAD to be one in order to function. It's a very painful subject for us BE's.
Andymantium wrote:
Then why are you posting here?
Cephalo wrote:
I've always been against having a merchant profession in the first place. I think its more of a basic game function. It's like having a 'driver' profession just to use a vehicle. Therefore, I don't care what happens to the merchent tree.
Fair enough.
Though, I feel Merchant is a very valid profession...perhaps not currently being utilized to its potential, but I feel that with the right improvements, it can become much more efficient and fulfilling.
Ahnlida wrote:
I'm convinced that the insanely high number of posts is proof enough that changing it would muss up a whole lot of trouble... not to mention all the inevitable bugs that everyone would scream about for months afterward.
Its not so much that it will muss things up, but that it touches on so much (like, every crafter) and we don't want to see it implemented in such a manner as to ruin the play of anyone. The lively discussion simply proves that it is a subject everyone has an opinion on (no matter how wrong 
). That we have proof that the Dev's are listening just encourages the discussion.
Any change invariably has bugs, though they seem to get fixed much faster now than they used to. But without change, this game can not improve. It would be nice to be at a level where nothing would need to be done so we could just play and not worry about things, but life is a dark and cruel mistress and perfection is not her want. So the Dev's dev, the players play, and we stand here ready to rail and rabble to insure the right thing gets done instead of the right now thing.
Message Edited by GraySeven on 02-21-2005 01:43 AM
Elyssa wrote:The following is my "as a player" opinion:I disagree with any system that allows a player to see my prices or retrieve their items without visiting my vendor in person.Being able to comparison shop from a central location will only favor those players who for one reason or another can afford to undercut everyone else.Secondly, a significant portion of my business comes from people who look around while they're in my store and see other things they may not have been specifically looking for.This "impulse buying" is extremely valuable to me as a merchant.However, the ability to see *IF* something you are looking for is on a specific vendor and get a waypoint to go shop there is a very good idea.
What she said. The most annoying and time consuming thing about shopping is wanting item x and looking
on vendor after vendor that carries something similar (heavy harvesters but I want a heavy MOISTURE
harvester) but never what I want. I would view the addition kind of like calling the stores listed
in the planet/galaxy map and asking if they have x in stock. THey wont give prices over the phone and
I still have to go to the shop to pick up the item. BUt at least I know they have the actual item.
-Indene-