Merchant Archive
Thread: Focus Thread: Galaxy-Wide Vendor Search
R0ZM4N wrote:
I disagree with your premise that your desire for a new feature means that I just have to find a new way to play the game. No. If you want a new feature find a way to implement it without damaging the game and other players while you do it.
That is simply unreasonable. You cannot implement a change without it affecting anyone, it's impossible. We must, however, be open to change for the sake of progress and I believe that this new system is very progressive and would be beneficial to all. Neither your comments, nor those of other posters have radically altered my view on this.
This system isn't progressive. Its convienient for part of the player base and damaging to the professions of other parts of the player base. The burning need doesn't exist. The game has existed for almost 2 years without the feature it isn't such an emergency that it must be implemented no matter what the impact is. The game is not served by implementing change that will ruin the game for many players in order to achieve something that can be achieved without ruining the game for those players.
There have been suggestions in this forum for global searching that would answer most of the desires of the community without damanging the profession. Those suggestions were completely ignored when this disasterous plan was put forward last week.
The system as designed does have the potential to damage the economy and the game play of thousands of players. I simply disagree that you are reasonable when your primary response is either "get over it" or "come up with another way to play."
We can have both a better searching system AND a vibrant merchant profession that still maintains the game play that the majority of its players enjoy.
For Example: Instant Delivery and the ability of a player to view my competitors wares from my vendor are just not possible if any care at all is given to the wishes for merchants to have a decent game to play. It will ruin the game we play.
Global Searching as an advertising method for merchants with the skill to use it is a very good idea and it helps consumers and merchants at the same time. Free global advertising for non merchants with unlimited prices in the bazaar isn't in any way supportative of the merchant profession and is nothing more than people trying to play merchant without the abilities.
Whether prices are included is up for debate but even if they aren't you still have more searching ability than you did before this idea was floated. The main reason merchants fear pricing is that it leads to price wars on a global basis where location and reputation are diminished as mitigating factors. Underselling occurs today it affects prices today. Anyone who has ever been in either the shipwright profession or the Housing market can tell you that it does have an effect. Today the effect is mitigated by the advertising power of the competitors who engage in it. Amplifiy that advertising power galactically and you have more of an issue than you have today. Its a valid concern. There are extreme positions about it but dismissing it as a non issue belies an ignorance of how the system works today.
Buying remotely vs buying locally has some issues to be weighed on both sides but my main resistance to buying remotely is that people will end up getting ripped off in this system if they spend money and then have to go find the vendor and retrieve their items. IT is far better for them to go buy the items at the vendor or at the very least give them a way to reserve the purchase and pay for it when they arrive so they are not constantly taken advantage of by circumstances that make it impossible for them to buy the merchandise once they get to the vendor.
Rhadida wrote:
I have read most of the posts here, but ONE point seems to be left out:
The fact that when you have ONE database (sorted from 1 credit to 99.999.999 credits) you will have to search even LONGER for your item. With the current vendor system, you simply look at the top 10 Highest Priced Items on the Sort you are looking for. And you know those are the best on that Vendor (E.g. a PH or a VK). When you have the Worldwide Search option you will get like 200.000 VK's listed from say 1500 credits (unsliced) to 60.000.000 350+ max damage Ultra Rare. All the Items in between will not be seen, unless you scroll through 2.000 pages of weapons (if you can even search per weapon). Or even more, say only option as today 2-handed, you will get 500.000 weapons or 5.000 pages
So you will never see the difference between, say mine 35% damage sliced 198 max damage VK for 100k and the 35% damage sliced 198 max damage sliced VK for 250k from some-one else. You will NEVER know what the stats of the weapons are until you examine them ONE BY ONE.Well good luck to the lazy to walk people, but scrolling and examining 500.000 weapons will take longer
I think no-one has looked at it from this perspective.....
This is not meant as an attack toward you Rhaadia, I just used your post as an example. I think a lot of people are still confused about how viewing these items would be. From the way I read it and the example given. You will only see the items for the vendor you select not all items of that type in the galaxy that are being sold. Yes searching would still be a long process going from vendor to vendor, but that can be narrowed down by the filters. So you will not have 2,000 pages of generic items to search through. Another thing I that came to mind while reading the posts is how all the merchants are saying their skills will be rendered useless. I don't think that would be the case. With the merchant item nerf you still need higher merchant skills to list more items. One of my toons is an architect and I specialize more into fully stocked with furniture. Having just Business 3 from artisan would not give me enough item limit to list all the furniture with multiple quantities of each. Since this is being re-evaluated I think it will be an option for you as one of the skills higher up in merchant, just like the planeraty advertising.
DarkJedi49 wrote:
Rhadida wrote:I have read most of the posts here, but ONE point seems to be left out:The fact that when you have ONE database (sorted from 1 credit to 99.999.999 credits) you will have to search even LONGER for your item. With the current vendor system, you simply look at the top 10 Highest Priced Items on the Sort you are looking for. And you know those are the best on that Vendor (E.g. a PH or a VK). When you have the Worldwide Search option you will get like 200.000 VK's listed from say 1500 credits (unsliced) to 60.000.000 350+ max damage Ultra Rare. All the Items in between will not be seen, unless you scroll through 2.000 pages of weapons (if you can even search per weapon). Or even more, say only option as today 2-handed, you will get 500.000 weapons or 5.000 pagesSo you will never see the difference between, say mine 35% damage sliced 198 max damage VK for 100k and the 35% damage sliced 198 max damage sliced VK for 250k from some-one else. You will NEVER know what the stats of the weapons are until you examine them ONE BY ONE.Well good luck to the lazy to walk people, but scrolling and examining 500.000 weapons will take longerI think no-one has looked at it from this perspective.....
This is not meant as an attack toward you Rhaadia, I just used your post as an example. I think a lot of people are still confused about how viewing these items would be. From the way I read it and the example given. You will only see the items for the vendor you select not all items of that type in the galaxy that are being sold. Yes searching would still be a long process going from vendor to vendor, but that can be narrowed down by the filters. So you will not have 2,000 pages of generic items to search through. Another thing I that came to mind while reading the posts is how all the merchants are saying their skills will be rendered useless. I don't think that would be the case. With the merchant item nerf you still need higher merchant skills to list more items. One of my toons is an architect and I specialize more into fully stocked with furniture. Having just Business 3 from artisan would not give me enough item limit to list all the furniture with multiple quantities of each. Since this is being re-evaluated I think it will be an option for you as one of the skills higher up in merchant, just like the planeraty advertising.
What do you base this on? The filter as described be the same we have today "Region", "Planetary", "Galactic" there is no way to view all the items on one vendor other than going there. And as described when you are at the vendor you can select the same "Region","Planetary", or "Galactic" and see all listings in the category you are looking at. Where are you seeing a different search described?
DocSavag wrote:
What do you base this on? The filter as described be the same we have today "Region", "Planetary", "Galactic" there is no way to view all the items on one vendor other than going there. And as described when you are at the vendor you can select the same "Region","Planetary", or "Galactic" and see all listings in the category you are looking at. Where are you seeing a different search described?
DarkJedi49 wrote:
DocSavag wrote:What do you base this on? The filter as described be the same we have today "Region", "Planetary", "Galactic" there is no way to view all the items on one vendor other than going there. And as described when you are at the vendor you can select the same "Region","Planetary", or "Galactic" and see all listings in the category you are looking at. Where are you seeing a different search described?There is also an option to choose just items on this vendor only. This next statement is copied from the post on the vendor changes.On the upper left corner, there is a Location Filter panel; vendor owners can choose to list all items on this vendor, this region, this planet, and this galaxy. In this snapshot, the Entire galaxy is chosen. All items that are for sale galaxy-wide (including all vendor and bazaar items) are listed on the right side. The Location column on the right side tells player where this item is located. Players can buy any items listed on the search.So you therefore have the option to choose how you want to filter, not just all the items will show no matter what.
That option is only available at the vendor. At the bazaar you have to sort through all items in the Region at the lowest level. There is no way to look at one specifc vendor on the bazaar.
And the option of viewing someone else's merchandise from my vendor is a terrible idea.
Edited at request of PM. I still agree with DocSavage's points though that some issues will need to be addressed before this system can go live.
Message Edited by R0ZM4N on 02-15-2005 09:05 PM
DocSavag wrote:
And the option of viewing someone else's merchandise from my vendor is a terrible idea.
mpdivo wrote:
Bottom line, open competition is going to make a lot of merchants quit because they can't compete with laptops made in China.
It's interesting that you bring this example up, because it is the future as I see it if these changes go through. In 1990, there were far more PC manufacturers than there are today. An issue of Computer Shopper magazine was about 2 inches thick. Now it's about 1/4 inch thick. We're down to HP, Dell, Gateway, and those laptops made in China. Heck, even IBM just sold their PC business to a company in China.
In real life, fewer options aren't necessarily a bad thing. People may not like Dell, but there is no question they have helped drive down prices. But I don't want the game to behave like real life. I don't want the game to be one where 5% of the player base crafts, 5% entertains, and 90% are combat players. The beauty of this game, compared to EQ2 or WOW is that the non-combat playstyles are real professions. There is far more non-combat variety in this game than any other MMORPG.I worry that hurting the crafters will ultimately hurt the game. We've already lost so many entertainers. Many of these were colorful characters that enriched my experience in the game. If we lose most of the crafters as well, I fear that we will move one step closer to all those other games. Yes, my opposition is motivated by fear. Whether it's a valid fear or not, it's unreasonable to ignore possible ramifications on the crafters just because this makes the game more like "real life".
Andymantium wrote: It's a game. Relax.
Exactly. Game = Fun
I price my items using price calculators that factor in base resources and components costs (per current cpu market pricefor those items), factory time, a markup % to cover other overhead expenses, and skill level modifier. If the calculator gives me a price that I feel is too high or low to the current market value, I alter it accordingly. To do this I have to comparison shop. Like any other player, I am running all over the galaxy dropping in at random shops and checking what's in stock and at what prices. But I am not buying. I am price checking so that I am better able to stay within the range of market value. For things I cannot find anywhere, I just guess. I don't worry about the undercutters or the gougers. I don't care what the shop next door to mine or themiddle of nowhere Rori is selling it for. I go by base costs and the median market value.
It's part of the Merchant Game. What does it cost me to make it? What is almost everyone else selling it for? How much time do I want to spend doing this? Is it fun? Sometimes, yes. I get out of my workshop and get to meet people and see what others have done to decorate their shops, find things I didn't even know I wanted to buy, etc. Sometimes, no. It takes a lot of time to do this chore. But it's important. Like homework. If I don't do my homework, I won't know how to win at the Merchant Game. A win for me is if I had fun doing it. Not just if I made sales and a profit this week. But was it fun just making the stuff and running the business?
The running about like a headless chicken in fruitless pursuit of items I want but can't find... is not fun.
As a merchant and crafter and customer, I have the same frustrations as everyone else. Trying to find "it" at a reasonable price. Trying to find "it" at all. Trying to find "it" without having to wander the planets and cities ad nauseum till I just surrender and go back home, my shopping desires unrequited. And log onto my combat alt and go kill stuff.
I don't mind the idea of a galactic search function. I think we need it. Badly.
But not until they fix the categories and add more subcategories. If I want to buy a table, I don't want to have to look through a list of ALL the furniture to find it. If I want to buy Blue rug thread #1, I don't want to look through the entire list of Generic Items to find it. Looking through the listings 100 items per page, and 100+ pages long... is not fun. Is it cheaper on the next page? Yeah, so what? I got tired of hitting the next items and refresh button, gave up and bought the first one I saw or I gave up and walked away without buying anything at all.
I don't mind the prices being listed. What's the point of a catalog of items with no prices or stats?
Why in the world would I want to save just the WP, then run out there, only to find it's price is far more than I can afford (or is delusional) or that it's stats are far below what I was wanting?
I don't really care if somebody is flooding the bazaar with items just to annoy people, or trying to corner the market, or because they are trying to make a little on the side while they powergrind to master through professions and turn it all in for jedi xp. That exists now. It's just harder to find "it" because you have to actually go to several shops to see who's doing it or not.
Galactic listings will reveal those who gouge and undercut the market. Human nature is funny, in that most people will walk away from a deal that's too good to be true. If most of the market sells Item A for Price B, then they wonder why someone is selling it for so much more or so much less. Smells bad. They won't touch it.
What I don't like is instant retrieval and allowing every player in the game to have so manyof the functions of a merchant without having to spend a single skill point on being a merchant.
Do not take away the reasons for having a shop, or merchant tent, or mall or more then one vendor. Geesh. Talk about gutting almost an entire profession. We need and want our customers to come to us. Most of us do not really want to become just an item vending machine with a remote buy now - free delivery button on it.
And cities. How many cities are built upon the foundations of their commerce and the traffic it brings in? Do you really want to see that flow of people brought to a trickle? Ghost towns are already a bane. Let's try not to make it an epidemic.
Do not take away our advertising perks. Why should a non-merchant have the same advertising and customer outreach selling power as a Master Merchant? The ability to be searchable on the galaxy search should be tied to skill levels.
Non Artisan = Local, Artisan = Regional, Novice Merchant = Planet, Master Merchant = Galaxy
If you wanted to be listed in more locations, regions or planets, then you would need to list items on more bazaars, and have vendors in more locations and planets.
However they eventually implement this change, I will at least give it a fair trial before I make a decision whether to adjust my playstyle, or just change my profession altogether.
Just because it goes in doesn't mean they won't ever make any more changes to it. In theory and in practice or often two different beasts. If it appears to not be working as wished, then it will be up to us to speak up, tell them why and how it might be better, and to be constructive with our suggestions in assisting them to give us more fun.
And to try very hard to not direct personal attacks at each other. Keep it about the issues.
Andymantium wrote:
It's a game. Relax.
mpdivo wrote:
OMG! Has anyone checked out Yahoo.com yet? I just did and found out that you can price compare. I found that I could instantly see how much and item cost and who has it. Sure, sometimes I have to actually drive to get it but come on! Why isn't the government shutting this down?
If this is allowed to continue, this will be the end of the merchant class as we know it.
Not to mention, I tried to look for a laptop and there are thousands on there. That is too much for a consumer to go through.
Bottom line, open competition is going to make a lot of merchants quit because they can't compete with laptops made in China. Buying from China is a fraking exploit! The government needs to not only kick out those that use China in their trades but it should shut down websites like Yahoo because established merchants like microsoft and walmart work hard and spend a lot of time in developing their goods. I mean, the consumer is too lazy to go to each individual shop? Why should they have it easy when it is so hard and time consuming for big business?
Some merchants have too much money too and they will just keep on kicking the prices down until the bigger companies that have been charging huge prices will be forced to quit and go to Cuba...WHERE THEY RESPECT THE MERCHANT CLASS!
Over 75% of those in the business community feel this way. Just look at the business pages. So why hasn't the government shut this down?
Message Edited by Jaer_Allanon on 02-15-2005 05:22 PM