Merchant Archive

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R0ZM4N wrote:

Dear Jon

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Well, at least you didn't call us greedy like everyone else is /sigh.

I don't understand how trying to protect one's profession can be seen as greedy. You (all of you) would do the same thing if your profession were being disassembled.

All we're doing is looking out for something we've invested a lot of time and energy in.

R0ZM4N you want to know why you got a One Star?

Let Summarize your views:

"I'll lose Merchant XP if people don't view my vendor or pay to enter my shop" --- Your answer "too bad"

"The little guy will vanish and power Guilds will rule all" -- Your answer "it doesn't happen" (Thats BS by the way it does happen now the reason it would be worse is that today lower prices are one competitive method others are location and reputation under a global system prices become more important and location and reputation become less important.)

Nobody will see my shop" -- Your answer "too bad"

How exactly are Merchants supposed to reply to your post which offers absolutely no constructive method for dealing with the damage this proposal does to the merchant profession and the crafting professions and basically tells the devs to ignore our wishes?

Oh and "merchant bullies" and "Merchant forum agitators" is also less than constructive.

You lose points for starting with a whine about having to use skill points to be a merchant as well.

Over all the only reason you got one star is because there are no negative numbers available.

Message Edited by DocSavag on 02-15-2005 11:20 AM

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Happymob wrote:

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GraySeven wrote:

If you have ever gone planet to planet, vendor to vendor, searching for one particular resource you would see why even a clunky database would be infinitely better, especially when you get to the "resource vendor" and pay to get in only to find 100 units of trash resource keeping the vendor on the planetary map.

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Which is why you develop relationships with merchants who are good. Which is why you ask people about who has a good vendor. Which is why you covet that great bargain vendor in an out-of-the-way location that nobody else seems to know about.I have relationships, I have contacts, but even they don't have everything I need when I need it.

The current system is undoubtedly inefficient. But making it perfectly efficient will ultimately hurt the game because you will have less variety in product, less interaction between people, and fewer crafter/merchants. Yes, that's pure speculation. But based on the merchant response to this change, it's probably not far off the mark. It won't hurt the game, it will change the game. And how can more choices bring less variety? And if you want interaction, why are you using vendors? Most of my sales come when I'm offline, unless they are custom orders and that won't change. People will still want droids that do "X" and I'll still make them. The only way less people with craft or merchant will be if they get all upset and quit. The cost to make items won't change, except maybe you can get cheaper resources than you do now.

The combat players want Wal-Mart. The merchants want mom-and-pop shops. Which is ultimately better for a multiplayer game based at least in part of people interacting in avariety of roles? I'm a pure crafter. I'm a Master Shipwright, Artisan, DE with the rest spent in Merchant (and was one of the first Masters of that). I want this change because instead of screaming that the sky is falling, I saw what would be good about it. I don't see interaction changing at all except to bring my goods and name to more people. My shop will not change, I'll still sell what I sell, only to a broader customer base. I may have to adjust my prices a bit, but if I see an undercutter I will buy them out and relist. I might not have to craft again if I can resell (like a Merchant should). My little shop will hardly see any change at all, except maybe an increase in business.

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Andymantium wrote:

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R0ZM4N wrote:

Dear Jon

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Well, at least you didn't call us greedy like everyone else is /sigh.

I don't understand how trying to protect one's profession can be seen as greedy. You (all of you) would do the same thing if your profession were being disassembled.

All we're doing is looking out for something we've invested a lot of time and energy in.

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I honestly beleive this is exactly the core battle we are against on these threads.

We are a profession, we serve a purpose and the community, we work for our livings, and we play the role
but how we see and understand ourselves to be, isn't what appearently the rest of the Galaxy sees us as.

For all the Merchants and Crafters and even Looters out there, who know the supply, and demand, and sales ins and outs,that are trying to keep viable, playable, agreeable ideas afloat.. Huzzah! Thank You.

By doing what you have done and by voicing now, you are helping keep my spirits up as a Master Merchant who takes pride in her 'Gals

I am a Master Tailor who has a female of every player race supporting me as a vendor, and I spent hrs on the create/examine/delete routine to get them.

Message Edited by Ani_cul on 02-15-2005 10:39 AM

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Andymantium wrote:

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R0ZM4N wrote:

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Andymantium wrote:

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R0ZM4N wrote:

Dear Jon

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Well, at least you didn't call us greedy like everyone else is /sigh.

I don't understand how trying to protect one's profession can be seen as greedy. You (all of you) would do the same thing if your profession were being disassembled.

All we're doing is looking out for something we've invested a lot of time and energy in.

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Andy is right on target here. People, consider this: What if they instanerfed all combat profs such that only the very top, say, the top 2% of people in your prof class, had any chance of killing anything?

That's analogous to how this change would most likely ruin crafting.

You want to know what will happen? Consider this discussion on Sunrunner, my server:

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Borion_Sunrunner wrote:

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Mor-Dan wrote:

if Borion decides to come by and snatch up all your product to resale, so be it. you just got paid. contact Mr. Borion and ask how you can enter into a business venture with him as a supplier, and he would be more than glad to discuss it with you.

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No question that I'm always interested in discussing business ventures, but I wasn't talking about just buying items for resale as a way to crush the compentition. I'm talking about an organized attempt to corner the market by high-volume low-margin sellers who can effectively do so thanks to the "galactic bazaar".

Lets just take a few markets that are going to be pure commodity based on price:

1) Armor
2) non-enhanced weapons
3) resources
4) food
5) clothing including BE clothing
6) architect deeds

What would happen with a global market is that all six of these items, the only differentiator would become price. You want a medium tatooine house or a non-enhanced T21 rifle or a new suit of armor? You're going to hit that category and find the cheapest one you can that has the standard stats (n/a for a house, but applicable for a weapon/armor/etc).

If a global bazaar came down, lets just say that you (mor-dan) and I decide we're going to completely corner the weapons market. Between the two of us, (plus perhaps another merchant alt which i'm sitting on, whatver it takes) and we absoltuely flood the global bazaar with weapons. I help supply the cash and resources, and lots for factories, and we crank out 5000 weapons per week instead of the normal 500.

Except instead of charging the standard $25k for a T21 (numbers made up) we charge $20k for something that costs us $18k to make. We make up in volume what we're losing in profit. Other weaponsmiths will try to match our pricing, but for the low-volume guys its simply no longer worth their time to make and sell weapons, as the vast majority of weapon customers are buying our superior weapons which are lowest priced.

So now anytime anyone searches for a T21, they see 500 of ours plus a sprinkling handful from other vendors. And ours are noticably priced less...

The only ones which would be able to compete would be someone with a large enough supply of resources and cash to run the same bulk operation. Otherwise the marginalized return on investment means they're just experiencing diminishing returns, earning less and less and becoming more and more frustrated with weaponsmith.

Not to mention those without a vertical monopoly (able to supply all their own resources, owning the same production capacity, etc) aren't going to be able to compete for long. Those we can't drive out of business, we partner with ("join the consortium") or at least we pricefix.

Extend the example to all six of the areas listed above. Especially with the resource market (suppling the rest of the consortium at a lower price, selling on the bazaar for a slightly higher price, ensuring its even harder for others to compete).

Soon the consortium members are rolling in almost effortless cash - just have to keep the factories or the harvestors humming, and watch the cash roll in. Soon the consortium controls 90% of the trade on the server.

Something like this is extremly risky in the current environment, because of location and difficulty of stocking multiple vendors in the varying areas it would take to effectively blanked the server. And people are always going to buy from other vendors just because they're close... But if you could get all of the server's prices and stats from a central bazaar, you're never going to randomly shop again: its going to be all shopping based on price, and lowest price is always going to win.

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Yeah, the devs need to read this post.

Two people cornering the market? I'm sure that's what they intended when making crafter profs in the first place.

That would render everyone else's skills utterly obsolete, and ruin many people's play. Sort of like having only two combat prof people killing all the enemies and the others are nerfed so bad they can't kill anything.


I know people would do this, on every server, and it'd just kill crafting, excluding the 4 or 5 people who can do like you do. The rest? Might as well quit.

I could still make money beating on diseased nunas as a novice brawler. But as a master merchant master chef, under this change, if it goes through, I'll get beat on a like diseased nuna.

This isn't capitalism ala Rockefellar and Carnegie. It's supposed to be such that non-uber people can sell things, not such that one or two people corner a market, thus rendering obsolete many, many peoples play.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out how uncool it would be for many, many people if the change were to go through.

[end quote]



*****


Yes, this idea sucks. I can't undertand why you peolpe can't see it.

Yeah, I'm all for two or three people controlling each market for each prof, thereby rendering obsolete virutally everyone else's play. What fun!

Message Edited by Bhasayate on 02-15-2005 09:12 AM

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R0ZM4N wrote:

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Andymantium wrote:

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R0ZM4N wrote:

Dear Jon

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Well, at least you didn't call us greedy like everyone else is /sigh.

I don't understand how trying to protect one's profession can be seen as greedy. You (all of you) would do the same thing if your profession were being disassembled.

All we're doing is looking out for something we've invested a lot of time and energy in.

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Actually honey that's a very fair point and one I hadn't considered. I was a DE for ever and ever and I loved it most dearly and fought tooth and nail every time I saw something on the horizon I didn't like, which for DE's was a lot

But I'm not proposing that Merchant be dissmantled, I'm proposing that a better system of sales be implemented, if that has a negative knock-on effect to Merchants then perhaps Merchants should be asking what would be done about that, what changes would be made to replace your losses rather than trying to scuttle what would otherwise seem to be a very positive new game mechanic. I take your comments to heart and will consider them in future posts.

Thank you.

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DocSavag wrote:R0ZM4N you want to know why you got a One Star?Let Summarize your views: "I'll lose Merchant XP if people don't view my vendor or pay to enter my shop" --- Your answer "too bad" That's right, so why don't you do something about this problem you have clearly identified 1, asking for an increase in xp rate given for standing vendors for example rather than just flaming me?"The little guy will vanish and power Guilds will rule all" -- Your answer "it doesn't happen" (Thats BS by the way it does happen now the reason it would be worse is that today lower prices are one competitive method others are location and reputation under a global system prices become more important and location and reputation become less important.) So fine let it happen, let guilds work themselves silly trying to produce the lowest price, highest quality goods money can buy. Either they'll get bored and move on or we'll all get these really great products at really great prices. I'm pretty sure that's what an economy is all about. What you're suggesting is that having a shop that's easy to find is a valid reason to charge more for a product than I can buy it for if I actually find it at one of these guilds, that hardly seems any fairer.Nobody will see my shop" -- Your answer "too bad" I do concede this will be a loss to the community, I'm a big fan of lovely malls, Theed mall on Chimaera is always a joy to visit. I'm not saying the change has no downsides.How exactly are Merchants supposed to reply to your post which offers absolutely no constructive method for dealing with the damage this proposal does to the merchant profession and the crafting professions and basically tells the devs to ignore our wishes? On the contrary, I'm not trying to offer a constructive method for dealing with the damage to the Merchant community, that's the job of the merchant community 2. They should get together and work with the Corr and the Dev's to ascertain how to reconcile the profession with this new system, which is of *massive* benefit to all players. What they shouldn't be doing is just screaming *foul!* and having it taken away from us 3Find your answers to how Merchant can work with the new system and I may well put as much effort into supporting that as I am into supporting this.Oh and "merchant bullies" and "Merchant forum agitators" is also less than constructive but thank you for proving my point.You lose points for starting with a whine about having to use skill points to be a merchant as well. Understood, it's an old personal grudge.Over all the only reason you got one star is because there are no negative numbers available. As I said, thank you for proving my point. I would have expected a more practical response to my individual points from a 'Blue Glowie', it seems I have done so for yours.

Message Edited by DocSavag on 02-15-2005 11:20 AM

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1 Before this came about merchants ahve been asking on seperate issues for improvement, so we are trying and have been attemptingto do something for a long time.

2 This is not just the merchant community speaking but crafters looters and buyers as well, this effects the entire system, not just ourprofession (which is what people are attacking instead of the veiws) and working to implement a feature that doesn't do damage , rather then implemant one and then deal seems far more viable to me (once of prevention anyone?)

3 taken away from us? I must say that really stung me, I am US as well. An aweful lot of merchants have been trying to get a search function ingame for a long time. The fact people fail to realize or perhaps acknowledge is that merchants are not as a whole oppossed to a search function, but are oppossed to the previously posted way it was to be implemented. Read the profession forums here and then say we don't want a function to make items easier for all to find..you won't be able to with understanding our past posts.

and personal note, blue glowie, coor, player, dev, csr...no matter what title they have if they play the game every right to have an opinion is theirs as well as yours.

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DocSavag wrote:
R0ZM4N you want to know why you got a One Star?

Let Summarize your views:

"I'll lose Merchant XP if people don't view my vendor or pay to enter my shop" --- Your answer "too bad"

"The little guy will vanish and power Guilds will rule all" -- Your answer "it doesn't happen" (Thats BS by the way it does happen now the reason it would be worse is that today lower prices are one competitive method others are location and reputation under a global system prices become more important and location and reputation become less important.)

Nobody will see my shop" -- Your answer "too bad"

How exactly are Merchants supposed to reply to your post which offers absolutely no constructive method for dealing with the damage this proposal does to the merchant profession and the crafting professions and basically tells the devs to ignore our wishes?

Oh and "merchant bullies" and "Merchant forum agitators" is also less than constructive.

You lose points for starting with a whine about having to use skill points to be a merchant as well.

Over all the only reason you got one star is because there are no negative numbers available.

Message Edited by DocSavag on 02-15-2005 11:20 AM

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You forgot to add that she's a condescending smart ass who replies to people with words like "honey" when she stands corrected and subtely proceeds to reem out the person who corrected her.

Message Edited by Bhasayate on 02-15-2005 09:25 AM

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R0ZM4N wrote:

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Your points don't have any practical answers. They are merely dismissive of any concerns we have as a profession. I disagree with your premise that your desire for a new feature means that I just have to find a new way to play the game. No. If you want a new feature find a way to implement it without damaging the game and other players while you do it. I have offered suggestions for how to do that in this very post and in other posts for more than a year in this forum.

You admit you have no desire to make this change less damaging to the merchant profession. Fine we know where you stand. But don't pretend that you deserve any answers to your post. It is essentially a troll.

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Chataka Windae
Rifleman/Combat Medic
CEO, Windae Enterprises
Mesric Sanctuary Founder

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DocSavag wrote:

Your points don't have any practical answers. They are merely dismissive of any concerns we have as a profession.

That's not true at all, I have had my initial views added to and revised constantly throghout the day as people have challenged me with specific issues. I havehad my mind changedon a number of points and admitted to several flaws both in the original plan andmyoriginal post.I am not merely dismissive of your concerns, on the contrary I share many of the same concerns myself, I would not want the new system to be applied without, at least, a reconciliation of the two primary, effected Merchant branches.

I don't have any 'practical answers' as you put it because there are no'practical questions'.I am responding to the threat of what I see as an excellent system being derailed by unfounded concerns of 'Phantom 1 credit T21 Guilds' and 'Perpetual below cost Billionaire Artisan Swoops'.

I disagree with your premise that your desire for a new feature means that I just have to find a new way to play the game. No. If you want a new feature find a way to implement it without damaging the game and other players while you do it.

That is simply unreasonable. You cannot implement a change without it affecting anyone, it's impossible. We must, however, be open to change for the sake of progress and I believe that this new system is very progressive and would be beneficial to all. Neither your comments, nor those of other posters have radically altered my view on this.

I have offered suggestions for how to do that in this very post and in other posts for more than a year in this forum.

Excellent. It would be nice to see some of the background on the Merchant communities ideas in this matter. I have read many times of their desire to have a searching system in place and would like to see players thoughts on this in detail. I will search your previous posts. Thank you.

You admit you have no desire to make this change less damaging to the merchant profession.

I admit nothing of the kind. I would be and have made it clear above, that I would support the Merchant community if it ascertains the improvements it requires in order to feel comfortable with the new system. Please do not put words in my mouth.

Fine we know where you stand. But don't pretend that you deserve any answers to your post. It is essentially a troll.

To troll is to lay bait in order to invite response, 'a bite' if you will. As my original post was in reply to concerns with which I strongly disagreed, written here and in the In Development thread, I believe that would make me the fish.

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Andymantium wrote: R0ZM4N, what are your professions?

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I've been a DE since '03 flower, but had to drop just recently when my shop exploded. So right now I'm just playing JTL. I think I'm gonna try BE for a change. I understand it's hard work but I'm up for the challenge.

Why do you ask honey?

Cass

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R0ZM4N wrote:

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Andymantium wrote: R0ZM4N, what are your professions?

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I've been a DE since '03 flower, but had to drop just recently when my shop exploded. So right now I'm just playing JTL. I think I'm gonna try BE for a change. I understand it's hard work but I'm up for the challenge.

Why do you ask honey?

Cass

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Curiosity.

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Andymantium wrote:

Curiosity.

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