Merchant Archive
Thread: Fix for the Non-Merchant vendor issue Proposal
Well, I tell you what. I respect your opinion and your right to have one. You make very valid points.
Keep in mind, this currently does not affect me as I still have management 3, because I am worried they will change it over night and my vendors will vanish. However, if SOE decides to remove a crafter's ability to place multiple vendors and maintain a shop then I will drop merchant entirely. I will have my one bulky, crappy vendor. I will place merchant spam bots in every major starport and sit myself in coronet and spam the hell out of the starport like everyone else. I do not see the point in paying someone to do for me what I am willing to do myself.
I think it is interesting that you claim maintaining a shop is a lot of work. I've been running one for several months now with multiple crafters who run their own vendors on my premesis. It is a very nice shop - asthetically pleasing and in a great location. It is a little work when you set it up. Once you set the shop up, all you have to do is pay the maintenance fee and keep it stocked. Mind you, keeping it stocked is the crafter's job. I don't make the millions people assume full time crafters make because I don't price gouge and I absolutely refuse to pay someone else to do my work for me. Again, as I stated before, I will not sacrifice my ability to make the best product for my customer at a reasonable price just so I can be allowed the "privilage" of making these items readily accessible to them. There is already enough work required to simply play this "game", don't you think?
As far as purchasing goods in order to resell them.. well keep in mind most crafters are going to want top dollar for their wares. Myself included. So I suppose you should be prepared for a profit margin of what.. 5% at best? Then, you get to compete with thefull-time crafters, like myself, who you've already purchased your goods from. Since you're having to purchase from us, I honestly don't see how you expect to make any money. We can always undersell you. The only thing that would really benefit me that I would be likely to pay for is the lot space it takes to rent a spot from you for my own vendor. And with my own profit margin (not to mention cross server lot trades - which SOE allows), I doubt I would be willing to pay very much for rent.
I'm curious if it has ever occured to any of you that perhaps Merchant is a supplimental profession specifically designed to accompany crafting professions. It certainly seems that way in its design as well as its implementation.
This opinion of mine might change over time. It will take a lot of work on SOE's part to see that it does. Just because Merchant is in the code does not mean it is something accepted by the players. Again, I understand where you are coming from. I think you make excellent points. I also think this concept has been totally lost since it was not enforced nor truly explained or encouraged since this game was released.It has been way too long to try and make this particular change now, unless they revamp the entire system. I mean, the entire system (crafting trees, the entire merchant profession, the way bazaars work, preventing starport spamming.. the works). Everyone will have to start over from scratch, because the weakness of this system is so widespread that there will always be people who take advantage of it, even after the "fix".
Message Edited by RumblingSky on 03-31-2004 02:14 PM
LonelyGhost wrote:
The biggest problem lies in that the Merchant Profession (which i agree should never have developed like it did) is the ONLY ONE where you can retain the advatages of the profession after DROPPING the skills that granted you those advantages. If the Devs decided to remove the Merchant profession entiterly and put all the skills into the Business and Domestic Arts tree's, I woudl agree whole-heartedly. Business tree deals with Vendors and advetising, Domestic Arts with Hiring and Customizing. But I find it *very* lkely this will never happen.
So we're stuck with it the way it is. Artisans are 95% crafters...the odd 5% or so are those who just survey for resources. Artisans need to sell stuff. The issue seems to be in what manner they do so. Do they sell it on their own, maintaining their own store? Or do they sell it to a Merchant, who by definition is a business-being. The answer to this question has already been answered by SOE, and they coded it into the game......Artisans can drop a vendor at Business 3. 12 skill points, right? It aint purty, and its bulky (pun intended), but it serves its purpose. If the Artisan cares about the shop appearance and vendor variety...and wants to be able to make the NPC look nice, and advetise on the (broken) planetary map, etc, etc....that has been coded into the game as well. Merchant!
Let me respond to a few of Wire3k's comments: ...If you create something, there is every reasonable expectation in the world to be able to sell it... Absolutely!! Couldn't agree more!! So whats the next step? How do you sell it? See above paragraph about the manner in which they do so...
...resent the change (and merchants especially) and take merchant back up... Resent Merchants? More like resent having to play the game as it was intended. I wonder how many of those resentful people who are taking advantage of the system would be resentful if several hundred people took up skills in their crafting profession so they could make stuff, then dropped the skills *but were able to continue making the items* !!!
...what about all those vendors that are out in the boonies that have great deals?... They would most likely poof for a bit...and good riddance! I wonder how many times when browsing in the boonie you have come across empty vendors? I would GLADLY miss a few deals in order to clear out hundreds of empty vendors. If they dont have the gumption to keep the vendor stocked, they shouldn't have a vendor. If they dont have the gumption to keep a vendor stocked, they arent a "Merchant". Then you have the fact that a Merchant can have a vendor in multiple locations. Why not have 2 on Naboo (one near Theed, another near Kaadara), 2 on Corellia (both on either ends of Coronet), 1 on Tatooine, and 1 on Dantooine? You can specialize these vendors too...you can put them in with several other vendors, filling a needed "niche" the structure (read:Mall) owner wants.
...most merchants seem to think everyone else should come to them and all they need to do is stock vendors... This is the very DEFINITION of Merchant:
mer·chant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrchnt) n. One whose occupation is the wholesale purchase and retail sale of goods for profit. One who runs a retail business; a shopkeeper
...where do you think you are going to STORE enough to put on the vendors?... You only get stuff when you order it. If I dont need any more Swoops, I wont commision them, and their storage will not be an issue. Also, higher Merchant skills was supposed to mean better storage. I still think the suggestions they had for the item cap was WAY too low, but the fact remains that if you had higher skills, you could list more.
...one of the driving factors for many crafters is being able to interact with customers. The running a small shop part is important to them as actually creating the items... Then it seems like they might be a Merchant.... Really, this does not mean crafters can no longer interact with customers...it simply means they no longer need to mass produce stuff and manage the pricing and listing of all that stuff. Custom work, by all accounts, is the bread and butter of most crafting professions. Custom work can not be done my a standard Merchant (not without significant delays). So your neighborhood Armorsmith makes suits of custom armor, by hand, for people who order it, but they sell, say, 20 suits of Ubese to the local Merchant each week too. Those can all be done in factories, and leaves the Crafter with more time to interact with their customers, and play other aspects of the game.
...You have to stop thinking that having a monopoly on selling is the defining feature of the merchant class... I cant speak for anyone else, but I never intended to have a "monopoly" on selling things.....but I DO want to have a monopoly on the advantages granted to me as a Merchant. AKA advanced vendors types, advertising, etc.... Once again - Is if fair for Smugglers to have a monopoly on Slicing? That is a skill granted to them through skill point expenditure...and they lose it if they drop the boxes.
...While vendors may indeed be a tool - it's far from the most important one that could be given to merchants that retain skill. There are a TON of tools that merchants need to give them an edge - and those can absolutely be revoked if skill is given up. There are ALREADY benefits that are given up when the skill is dropped... I refer you to your Artisan SKill tree....as I stated just above, Artisans do indeed get a vendor, and so DO have access to this tool....the problem is in them getting more vendors than was designed and being able to enjoy other Merchant "only" perks like advertising. I agree that we need more tools....better vendor interface, larger factory crate stacks, etc. The only "benefits" I know of that you lose when dropping Merchant are Tents and the pitiful Vendor/Bazaar and Maint reductions given in the Efficiency tree. Everything else you get to keep...and frankly, it ought to be the exact opposite IMHO. Keep the maint and Bazaar reductions and lose the vendors and advertising.
...will not mean you can sit on your laurels and rake in cash, which frankly - is what most posts of this nature strike me as requesting... I dont see how operating as a Merchant is sitting on your laurels. It takes time and energy to find and commision products. If you dont have anything to sell, you aren't really a Merchant, are you? It takes lots and LOTS of credits to aquire stock. Have you ever asked how many dollars it takes to fill up a grocery store, or a Wal*Mart? That money all comes out of your pocket. After you get the suppliers, you have to make a deal that will be profitable to you and them...this negotiating will directly affect your financial success. Then you have maintenance stuff...like shopping around to see what other stuff is selling for...buying cheap stuff you find in little shops to resell....discovering new crafters or a new outlet for your wares....the list goes on.
...What tools can be added in the advertising line however would be top of my list of needed things for merchants as a class. It's not whether you have something up for sale - it's whether folks can find you to buy it. This is a natural edge - and probably the ONLY edge that's needed to insure that merchant as a class is viable... So I have a question....are you assuming people will be able to get the benefits of these new advetising abilities without maintaining the skill boxes that granted them? Are you thinking it will work just like it does now with these new abilities? And I wonder if you shoudl indeed call this a "class" since you seem in favor of giving away all the benefits of the class to people who have only briefly visited it?
...merchant was put in as a skillpoint sink so folks couldn't or wouldn't dabble in too many crafting professions... I dont think so, because I could still get that 3rd crafting prof....all I'd need to do is find someone willing to re-sell stuff. Not too hard if you are a quality craftperson.
...So, you are looking at a class that was designed to do something it doesn't ... I disagree. I think the profession was implemented exactly how the Devs *wanted* it to be played, but we found out we can get, in essence, free skill points by dropping the profession after raping it of all useful advantages.
There is fairly easy fies for these problems...all of which have been posted over and over on these forums. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me what road the Devs take. Leave it as is and I will keep only the Merchant skills I use regulary (namely Eff 4 and Hiring 4) and only get back the others when I need to register a new vendor or set up a new vendor. Change it so that only Merchants can benefit from Merchant advantages, and I will get Adv3 and Management 3 and EFF 4, and sacrifice some skill points elsewhere. Or they can blend Merchant into Artisan, I would just like to hear from the Devs what they think.....is this working as intended or not?
WRONG!
Merchant IS NOT the only profession you can unlearn, take advantage of the skill, unlearn and retain the benefits. Politician is the same way. I unlearn most of my Politician skills the same day I learn and use them. I can even unlearn Novice Politician and STILL be Mayor.
Do you also propose whenever you elect a new mayor you lose your shuttle. They don't have the skill, you shouldn't get a shuttle? 95% of Mayors I speak to don't have the shuttle skill, because they don't need it anymore.
Penalizing people for using the Profession as they do and are is not a solution. It will only hurt everyone's gameplay.
What needs to be done is to ALLOW what has been going on, and GIVE Merchants more 'live' skills. What's a 'live' skill? One they utilize when they are online frequently, much like /chargeshot1 or /maskscent is a live skill.
That should be the benefit to KEEPING merchant skills. The benefit to earning them is obvious already, and should stay as it is - just like Politician skills. These are both support professions.
I am sure you can be creative and consider the possibility to expand your profession and use more live skills to do it. Barker droids could be a live use skill, as could Billboard usage, consigment sales (oh how merchant would be better with vendor consigment available), maybe skywriting from a Probot or access to a planetary Events system, or so much more....
This forum is full of dedicated merchants I am sure, but you do not represent the majority of people who use merchant skills obviously. It is your responsibility to consider their needs, thoughts and desires as well.
Improve merchant, don't Nerf it for everyone.
Message Edited by Rogue1970 on 03-31-2004 07:17 PM
Rogue1970 wrote:
....
It is a VERY stupid post - forcing ppl to give up their vendors because they drop merchant after master would mean the following:
NOONE except a crafter in a certain field EVER should be allowed to use a schematic in a factory. That means if you do a good gun as weaponsmith and make a schematic instead - you will ONLY be able to use the schematic if still have the ability to craft it.
Two points for me to have vendors:
1. Doing the merchant master (want to make ALL professions - yeah I will be a did-all32-profs-guy when actually playing jedi)
2. Have a STOCKING place for all my items - have about 800 by now - where else should I keep them? only minor stocking room in my house, and the bank takes 100 items - so what of the rest? DELETE them?
D.
Striping non-merchants of being able to advertise AGAIn (not if the vendor IS advertised already) and customizing them would be unfair - true.
But striping them of installed ones they were able to back in time would be unfair as well.
Damon123 wrote:
2. Have a STOCKING place for all my items - have about 800 by now - where else should I keep them? only minor stocking room in my house, and the bank takes 100 items - so what of the rest? DELETE them?
I do not post to the official boards often as they have digressed to the point of being a whining location for people who think SOE should do things that way they want and nothing else. That being said, I have played this game longer than probabley over 95% of the people here (since Beta 2). I currently have 3 characters and love the potential this game has. Yes, there are still countless issues. But I feel the Devs are making a good faith effort to fix them in as quick a manner as they can while still devoting considerable time to the "more content" that everyone seems to be yelling for daily.
It amazes me that people are complaining about a proposed "nerf" to the Merchant profession/skills. People do not see that inreality there is no "nerf" but this will be merely a fix to enable things to function as they were meant to. From previous Dev comments this fix is coming (current schedule calls for it in Publish 11). I have been through the changes of the CH profession as well and didn't complain the first time because I understand that not ever person playing the game should be running around with a Graul Mauler/Rancor and destroying mobs with ease.
None of the fixes coming will be insurmountable by any crafter. Do you feel you are not making a fair share of the rofits of your goods? then raise the price you sell them to a Merchant for. Simple as that. Do you want more than one vendor and the ability to advertise? Then take up merchant. There are no real issues here. If all else fails, do as our PA does and have common stores sprinkled throughout the galaxy. A few of your members might have Merchant and then host the items from all the PA's crafters. Do you want to store 800 items somewhere other than your house/inventory/bank? Well in that case i am guess you are out of luck as that is clearly exploiting the system and frankly slowing the server down for everyone that is playing the game.
Just my thoughts from a Long-Time SWG player........
Wire3k wrote:
I never said the PERKS shouldn't be revoked - look up a couple paragraphs from where you made this assertion, I specifically said those SHOULD be revoked.
There are several professions that never made it out of beta. Farmer, miner, industrialist - not only were they afraid no one would want to limit themselves skillpoint wise to such limited professions - if that turned out to be true - it would gate the entire ecomony. Merchant should have been on the nuked list.
Unlike Farmer, Miner and industrialist (which should have stayed in) Merchant is widely used by lots of people and doesn't gate the economy at all. And in fact it didn't get axed in beta or in the last 10 months, so it is likely here to stay. Making it whole again is a priority for many merchants. Even if that means that people currently benefiting from a loop hole in the design have to alter the way they spend their skill points or chose a different distribution process.
Wow.. that's interesting. I actually thought the forums were a place to express your opinion. I guess I was wrong.
Wookiescomplained that they couldn't wear armor. Even though wookies DON'T wear armor in the Star Wars universe, they now have armor.
People complained they couldn't play Jedi. Even though there were only 2 in the timeline according to the sacred scriptures (movies) we now have hundreds.
Even though it was way too easy to make exceptional if not perfect items, when SOE tried to fix it, most people complained and got it changed back within 24 hours.
It's amazing how, even though all of this has taken place, we are not "allowed" to express our opinion on yet another issue that has surfaced. I didn't post on any of the issues I've just mentioned and I certainly did not like the results. Exactly when is it okay for me to finally speak out when I see a change coming I don't like? Do I not have that right and should I be slammed for it?
If you don't like how your supplimental profession works, then drop it. If you have a right to post about it, then so do I. I'm not an exploiter and neither are any of the other people who use a supplimental profession to suppliment the real professions behind our economy. Think for a second. Without merchants, crafters can still market their items. Without crafters, merchants have nothing to sell. So, which school of thought is obsolete? We'll find out when they make these proposed changes.
Good day.
Message Edited by RumblingSky on 04-01-2004 07:18 AM
If you don't like how your supplimental profession works, then drop it. If you have a right to post about it, then so do I. I'm not an exploiter and neither are any of the other people who use a supplimental profession to suppliment the real professions behind our economy. Think for a second. Without merchants, crafters can still market their items. Without crafters, merchants have nothing to sell. So, which school of thought is obsolete? We'll find out when they make these proposed changes.
Actually you know what? You few are right.
Merchant being a supplimental profession is a game breaking issue and "fixing" it will certainly affect fewer people in a negative way then what has been workingexceptionally wellsince the game was released (as in it affects NO ONE negatively and only gives an edge to those who retain master merchant). I can't speak about anything before that because I wasn't around during the holy betas, so my opinion is obviously less valid than those who were. This doesn't significantly affect me anyway since, as I've stated previously, I am not an idiot and never dropped management 3. I'm just being forced to have a dull and boring shop because I can't maintain hiring 4 and I will be forced to sit in the starports and spam because I wont maintain advertising 3. I suppose it never occured to anyone that the more people we have sitting and spamming in a starport, the more lag that is caused and thus is clearly a game breaking issue. But that's okay.
Message Edited by RumblingSky on 04-01-2004 08:53 AM