Merchant Archive

Thread: Fix for the Non-Merchant vendor issue Proposal

LonelyGhost
Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:16 pm
#1

I'm sure some of ya have already proposed this...but i was bored, so..........


I was thinking about a way SOE could fix the problem with people taking Merchant long enough to get the vendors they want, and to dress them, and register them, then dropping Merchant. This could be a hotfix type thing too.


Add code to the vendor routines so when a vendor owner accesses their vendor, it checks the owners Artisan/Merchant skill levels.


  • If the vendor type is assigned to a skill box that the owner no longer has access to (becuase they dropped the Hiring skills), they can not add any new items to that vendor.

  • If they have out more vendors that they are currently allotted, they can not add ANY new items to ANY of their vendors. They can still withdraw stuff, and people can still by stuff, but nothing new can be added.

  • If the owner does not have the Advertising skills to support Ad-Barking or Planetary advertising, ALL of their vendors are unregistered from the planetary map, and ad barking is disabled...for ALL OF THEIR VENDORS

Basically, the "Random" vendor ability granted in Artisan only gives you the standard NPC's (Wookie, TwiLek, Bothan, Human, Trando). So if the owner has an Aqualishvendor but not a high enough Hiring skill, they get tagged. If they have no Advertising skills, they get tagged.




Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
LonelyGhost
Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:18 pm
#2


I'm sure some of ya have already proposed this...but i was bored, so..........


I was thinking about a way SOE could fix the problem with people taking Merchant long enough to get the vendors they want, and to dress them, and register them, then dropping Merchant. This could be a hotfix type thing too.


Add code to the vendor routines so when a vendor owner accesses their vendor, it checks the owners Artisan/Merchant skill levels.


  • If the vendor type is assigned to a skill box that the owner no longer has access to (becuase they dropped the Hiring skills), they can not add any new items to that vendor.

  • If they have out more vendors that they are currently allotted, they can not add ANY new items to ANY of their vendors. They can still withdraw stuff, and people can still by stuff, but nothing new can be added.

  • If the owner does not have the Advertising skills to support Ad-Barking or Planetary advertising, ALL of their vendors are unregistered from the planetary map, and ad barking is disabled...for ALL OF THEIR VENDORS

Basically, the "Random" vendor ability granted in Artisan only gives you the standard NPC's (Wookie, TwiLek, Bothan, Human, Trando). So if the owner has an Aqualishvendor but not a high enough Hiring skill, they get tagged. If they have no Advertising skills, they get tagged.




Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
Tira-Misu
Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:53 pm
#3

I like it



________________________________________
Tira-Misu Mostachioli
Master Tailor/Master Merchant
Biscotti Mostachioli
Master Image Designer/Novice Dancer
________________________________________

LonelyGhost
Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:25 am
#4

oops



Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
battosai20
Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:19 pm
#5


Wow this is nice finally a person who understands that every solution does not have to end with "and you items will be deleted"




Battosai Sano
Master Bounty Hunter


"The code of the Bounty Hunter states that every mark must be killed at all costs, but you must get nerfed." --Random SWG DEV

JTGAlpha
Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:29 pm
#6

Which is the same system we've been proposing for a long while. Not saying that as a diss. But it IS just that good a system.


You cannot add maintence. You cannot add items. You can only remove items.





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LonelyGhost
Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:24 am
#7

I'm curious if there has been any Dev mumbling about this? I know they dont want people to take advantage of the system like they are.....they have proposed dangerous things like vendor item caps (that would hurt real merchants) as a possible solution to limit it....


The thing is, the code is alreay in game, and IN OUR PROFESSION to deny you from dropping a skill box that grants you an ability.....that of dropping a Tent. To the best of my knowledge, your tent will poof a few days after dropping Eff IV. And code exists in other professions that will not let you drop structures unless you have a certain skill. So apply the same code to Merchant. If you drop your Management skill (or Merchant or Business tree) rendering your allowed vendor allotment lower than your deployed Vendors, you will no longer be able to add ANYTHING to ANY of your vendors. Problem solved. People could still scam things, but it would mean getting the skill to drop something, loading the vendor with everything they can, and dropping it, then pulling everything off again (that hasn't sold) before it poofs.


It seems to me that these fixes are front-end issues, and should not be too badly entwined with the complicated commerce code.



Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
Lyzi
Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:45 am
#8

I would like to see a function allowing mall owners to "fire vendors", very frustrating with merchant that quit the game without removing the vendors..



- Lyzi
__________________________________________________________
The BlackHand - We Always Prevail
Master Weaponsmith 12 exp. points, -963 -4364 (StarWares mall) Bestine, Tatooine, Eclipse
Master Doctor, Theed, Chimaera
Eclipse new auction site - www.swgauctions.org
RumblingSky
Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:45 am
#9


I am a Master Armorsmith, Droid Engineer and Artisan. I have a couple of merchant skills (ALL of my extra skill points are merchant skills, in fact) and yes, I have dropped one or two so I could master Artisan. I may not be a full time Merchant, but I am certainly a full time Crafter. Crafting is all I do. I need a place to display my wares and I need to be able to do so in a fashion where everything is not bunched together so people cannot find things within a half an hour of searching. Limiting the way I do business would stiffle my business and likely cause me to go out of business. The fact that I can placethe 4 vendors I have keeps me from having to do things like spam the starport. While that is totally out of control (and will get worse with the merchant droid modules coming), at least I am not one more annoying line of spam.


I think it is a poor "school of thought" that limits the way legitimate "businessmen" do business. There needs to be a concession for those who are full-time crafters. I can understand your concern over people who place vendors like, "Loot" and then regain all of their combat skills and do absolutly nothing for the crafting professions. I, for one, do not wish to sit on a bunch of skill points I can be using to make a better product for my customer just to satisfy a requirement that allows me to sell my wares conveniently for myself, my customer and the poor folks in the starport who do not need to see me spamming day in and day out.


Wire3k
Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:09 am
#10

Ok - flame retardant suit on. Bear in mind I HAVE a master merchant.


To merchants that think the ability to sell items in any amount worth doing should be a monopoly of just those with skill - be very careful what you ask for. Let's just say they did this and examine some scenarios of what will happen.


First and foremost - people consider the right to sell their goods as godgiven as the right to breath. If you create something, there is every reasonable expectation in the world to be able to sell it. The bazaar is NOT a reasonable place to sell much more than resources. What this will do is piss off a LOT of people. People that you want to be your suppliers. People that you want to be your customers. Less suppliers and customers = a very bad thing (tm).


To those that this is the last straw, they'll quit - either crafting - or the game entirely. To those that are hardcore about crafting - they'll either resent the change (and merchants especially) and take merchant back up or get a second account. So - you've lost suppliers and customers and not gained ANYTHING for the merchant class.


Secondly - what about all those vendors that are out in the boonies that have great deals? Those would all be gone. Personally - although I craft a LOT of stuff - I love shopping these vendors for resale purposes. I scored 15 locked containers the other day - it was like finding a treasure chest out in the middle of nowhere. The bread and butter of buy low - sell high is gone. Oh wait - nm, most merchants seem to think everyone else should come to them and all they need to do is stock vendors.


Third - if they put item limits in - uhhh, where do you think you are going to STORE enough to put on the vendors? Even if you have a steady supply chain of crafters - where are you going to put what you have for sale until you can list it? Oh - that's right - you expect crafters to live in your shop and do the work so you can jack up a markup for throwing it on a vendor. Not going to happen folks.


Fourth - one of the driving factors for many crafters is being able to interact with customers. The running a small shop part is important to them as actually creating the items. If they aren't hardcore - they aren't going to give up fighting skills just to be able to sell - see above.


Fifth - this would concentrate money in even fewer hands - a VERY bad thing (tm).


You have to stop thinking that having a monopoly on selling is the defining feature of the merchant class. Indeed - there IS no skills needed to be a merchant (which is why I thought it was poorly thoughtout as a class to begin with) but there ARE tools that make it easier. While vendors may indeed be a tool - it's far from the most important one that could be given to merchants that retain skill. There are a TON of tools that merchants need to give them an edge - and those can absolutely be revoked if skill is given up. There are ALREADY benefits that are given up when the skill is dropped. That still will not mean you can sit on your laurels and rake in cash, which frankly - is what most posts of this nature strike me as requesting.


Being a merchant is about YOUR skills - your people skills, your business savy - your cash and inventory management skills. Tools can help with some of that - but not item number one or two - and we probably won't see three. What tools can be added in the advertising line however would be top of my list of needed things for merchants as a class. It's not whether you have something up for sale - it's whether folks can find you to buy it. This is a natural edge - and probably the ONLY edge that's needed to insure that merchant as a class is viable. Right up there as a close number two is a purchasing agent type merchant that makes it far easier for folks to offer to sell what you WANT.


I strongly suspect merchant was put in as a skillpoint sink so folks couldn't or wouldn't dabble in too many crafting professions. This is good in theory - but normally doesn't work out that way in practice. MOST players put those points into some fighting skills so they can enjoy other aspects of the game, not into another crafting profession. Those that are that hardcore have two or more accounts to do so - probably ALREADY have merchant on at least one account (raises hand) and these changes wouldn't touch. So, you are looking at a class that was designed to do something it doesn't - and never will accomplish from the devs side of the table.


A little enlightened selfinterest goes a long way here. Look for win/win in merchant/crafter issues - that's one of the beauties of being a crafter/merchant, it works a whole lot better that way.







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Wire3k
Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:10 am
#11


Message Edited by Wire3k on 03-31-2004 06:10 AM



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RumblingSky
Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:47 am
#12




Wire3k: Hear, hear! A voice of reason. You can take away my advertising! You can take away my uniforms! But, you can't take away my vendors!


(of course, admittidly, I would likely drop the vendor skills having placed my vendors and pick up advertising 3 and hiring 4 again, retaining them. I don't see the point of entering a debate if I'm not going to be honest about it.)

LonelyGhost
Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:18 am
#13




The biggest problem lies in that the Merchant Profession (which i agree should never have developed like it did) is the ONLY ONE where you can retain the advatages of the profession after DROPPING the skills that granted you those advantages. If the Devs decided to remove the Merchant profession entiterly and put all the skills into the Business and Domestic Arts tree's, I woudl agree whole-heartedly. Business tree deals with Vendors and advetising, Domestic Arts with Hiring and Customizing. But I find it *very* lkely this will never happen.


So we're stuck with it the way it is. Artisans are 95% crafters...the odd 5% or so are those who just survey for resources. Artisans need to sell stuff. The issue seems to be in what manner they do so. Do they sell it on their own, maintaining their own store? Or do they sell it to a Merchant, who by definition is a business-being. The answer to this question has already been answered by SOE, and they coded it into the game......Artisans can drop a vendor at Business 3. 12 skill points, right? It aint purty, and its bulky (pun intended), but it serves its purpose. If the Artisan cares about the shop appearance and vendor variety...and wants to be able to make the NPC look nice, and advetise on the (broken) planetary map, etc, etc....that has been coded into the game as well. Merchant!


Let me respond to a few of Wire3k's comments: ...If you create something, there is every reasonable expectation in the world to be able to sell it... Absolutely!! Couldn't agree more!! So whats the next step? How do you sell it? See above paragraph about the manner in which they do so...


...resent the change (and merchants especially) and take merchant back up... Resent Merchants? More like resent having to play the game as it was intended. I wonder how many of those resentful people who are taking advantage of the system would be resentful if several hundred people took up skills in their crafting profession so they could make stuff, then dropped the skills *but were able to continue making the items* !!!


...what about all those vendors that are out in the boonies that have great deals?... They would most likely poof for a bit...and good riddance! I wonder how many times when browsing in the boonie you have come across empty vendors? I would GLADLY miss a few deals in order to clear out hundreds of empty vendors. If they dont have the gumption to keep the vendor stocked, they shouldn't have a vendor. If they dont have the gumption to keep a vendor stocked, they arent a "Merchant". Then you have the fact that a Merchant can have a vendor in multiple locations. Why not have 2 on Naboo (one near Theed, another near Kaadara), 2 on Corellia (both on either ends of Coronet), 1 on Tatooine, and 1 on Dantooine? You can specialize these vendors too...you can put them in with several other vendors, filling a needed "niche" the structure (read:Mall) owner wants.


...most merchants seem to think everyone else should come to them and all they need to do is stock vendors... This is the very DEFINITION of Merchant:

mer·chant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mûrchnt) n. One whose occupation is the wholesale purchase and retail sale of goods for profit. One who runs a retail business; a shopkeeper

...where do you think you are going to STORE enough to put on the vendors?... You only get stuff when you order it. If I dont need any more Swoops, I wont commision them, and their storage will not be an issue. Also, higher Merchant skills was supposed to mean better storage. I still think the suggestions they had for the item cap was WAY too low, but the fact remains that if you had higher skills, you could list more.


...one of the driving factors for many crafters is being able to interact with customers. The running a small shop part is important to them as actually creating the items... Then it seems like they might be a Merchant.... Really, this does not mean crafters can no longer interact with customers...it simply means they no longer need to mass produce stuff and manage the pricing and listing of all that stuff. Custom work, by all accounts, is the bread and butter of most crafting professions. Custom work can not be done my a standard Merchant (not without significant delays). So your neighborhood Armorsmith makes suits of custom armor, by hand, for people who order it, but they sell, say, 20 suits of Ubese to the local Merchant each week too. Those can all be done in factories, and leaves the Crafter with more time to interact with their customers, and play other aspects of the game.


...You have to stop thinking that having a monopoly on selling is the defining feature of the merchant class... I cant speak for anyone else, but I never intended to have a "monopoly" on selling things.....but I DO want to have a monopoly on the advantages granted to me as a Merchant. AKA advanced vendors types, advertising, etc.... Once again - Is if fair for Smugglers to have a monopoly on Slicing? That is a skill granted to them through skill point expenditure...and they lose it if they drop the boxes.


...While vendors may indeed be a tool - it's far from the most important one that could be given to merchants that retain skill. There are a TON of tools that merchants need to give them an edge - and those can absolutely be revoked if skill is given up. There are ALREADY benefits that are given up when the skill is dropped... I refer you to your Artisan SKill tree....as I stated just above, Artisans do indeed get a vendor, and so DO have access to this tool....the problem is in them getting more vendors than was designed and being able to enjoy other Merchant "only" perks like advertising. I agree that we need more tools....better vendor interface, larger factory crate stacks, etc. The only "benefits" I know of that you lose when dropping Merchant are Tents and the pitiful Vendor/Bazaar and Maint reductions given in the Efficiency tree. Everything else you get to keep...and frankly, it ought to be the exact opposite IMHO. Keep the maint and Bazaar reductions and lose the vendors and advertising.


...will not mean you can sit on your laurels and rake in cash, which frankly - is what most posts of this nature strike me as requesting... I dont see how operating as a Merchant is sitting on your laurels. It takes time and energy to find and commision products. If you dont have anything to sell, you aren't really a Merchant, are you? It takes lots and LOTS of credits to aquire stock. Have you ever asked how many dollars it takes to fill up a grocery store, or a Wal*Mart? That money all comes out of your pocket. After you get the suppliers, you have to make a deal that will be profitable to you and them...this negotiating will directly affect your financial success. Then you have maintenance stuff...like shopping around to see what other stuff is selling for...buying cheap stuff you find in little shops to resell....discovering new crafters or a new outlet for your wares....the list goes on.


...What tools can be added in the advertising line however would be top of my list of needed things for merchants as a class. It's not whether you have something up for sale - it's whether folks can find you to buy it. This is a natural edge - and probably the ONLY edge that's needed to insure that merchant as a class is viable... So I have a question....are you assuming people will be able to get the benefits of these new advetising abilities without maintaining the skill boxes that granted them? Are you thinking it will work just like it does now with these new abilities? And I wonder if you shoudl indeed call this a "class" since you seem in favor of giving away all the benefits of the class to people who have only briefly visited it?


...merchant was put in as a skillpoint sink so folks couldn't or wouldn't dabble in too many crafting professions... I dont think so, because I could still get that 3rd crafting prof....all I'd need to do is find someone willing to re-sell stuff. Not too hard if you are a quality craftperson.


...So, you are looking at a class that was designed to do something it doesn't ... I disagree. I think the profession was implemented exactly how the Devs *wanted* it to be played, but we found out we can get, in essence, free skill points by dropping the profession after raping it of all useful advantages.





There is fairly easy fies for these problems...all of which have been posted over and over on these forums. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me what road the Devs take. Leave it as is and I will keep only the Merchant skills I use regulary (namely Eff 4 and Hiring 4) and only get back the others when I need to register a new vendor or set up a new vendor. Change it so that only Merchants can benefit from Merchant advantages, and I will get Adv3 and Management 3 and EFF 4, and sacrifice some skill points elsewhere. Or they can blend Merchant into Artisan, I would just like to hear from the Devs what they think.....is this working as intended or not?




Crys Akkori - Merchant Engineer
Veteren of SIN, IO, and XC - A Founder of Jaxian Bay
Elder DE, Architect, Artisan, Chef, Merchant

Vendor on Naboo at -7547 4635 (Fly in to Theed)

Crafters do have decay on resources. As we use it it GOES AWAY. And when it's gone, we have to get more. - Elekae
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