Merchant Archive
Thread: Fix for the Non-Merchant vendor issue Proposal
DocSavag wrote:
Wire3k you don't want the profession to exist at all. Please just lobby for that instead of lobbying to continue this broken skill tree stuff. Why make people get Managment IV to GET their 6 vendors if they don't have to keep it? I would feel better about a proposal to give everyone 6 vendors than this current scenario which DOES devalue the skill tree whether you like it or not. The intent of the design was obviously to limit the number of vendors in the universe to those who have the skills.
Its the convenience and the advertising to a mass audience that should be the power of the merchant profession. It should be the service we are selling to crafters. Currently we can't do that because anyone who wants both can have it without keeping the skills for it. I suppose if they add item limits indexed to merchant skill points you guys will want to be able to keep the elevated levels after droping those skills too?
It isn't enough to give us new skills if the skills still don't create a market for our profession. We have a right to demand our profession be have a vital and unique role in the game as much as any other profession including the crafting professions. We aren't asking to be able to craft weapons or armor or droids. We aren't asking to tame creatures or make stims or kill Tuskens. We are asking that our profession have a unique skill that makes it necessary for others to come to us. Every other profession has that.
DocSavag wrote:
Its the convenience and the advertising to a mass audience that should be the power of the merchant profession. It should be the service we are selling to crafters. Currently we can't do that because anyone who wants both can have it without keeping the skills for it. I suppose if they add item limits indexed to merchant skill points you guys will want to be able to keep the elevated levels after droping those skills too?
It isn't enough to give us new skills if the skills still don't create a market for our profession. We have a right to demand our profession be have a vital and unique role in the game as much as any other profession including the crafting professions. We aren't asking to be able to craft weapons or armor or droids. We aren't asking to tame creatures or make stims or kill Tuskens. We are asking that our profession have a unique skill that makes it necessary for others to come to us. Every other profession has that.
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I disagree about the customer convience - I do agree about the advertising. I have no problem losing map listings if you give up the skill, or barks disabling themselves. You are still using existing perks which are practically nonexistant to justify screwing over the rest of the userbase.
You also aren't getting it - merchants make their OWN niches. Tools are absolutely helpful - but to be a successful merchant you have to do more than claim a skill profession and expect the game to adjust itself to YOU. You have to identify market trends - market yourself - market your products - make trade contacts - study pricing schemes. NONE of those things can game mechanics really help with - those are player skills.MY skills coming thru my character is precisely why I've always foundbeing a crafter/merchant rewarding. The main area game mechanics can help in is public contact, i.e., advertising. and facilitating ease of goods transfer between merchant and crafter.
Offering a pure service only in an area that should be a given, is essentially being a parasite - which is the primary reason I think merchant should never have been a proffession in and of itself. Merchants indeed have a niche for those crafters - those FEW crafters that don't care to run their own shops - but to try to strongarm all crafters into HAVING to deal with you, or altering templates they have developed under current existing realities into something they are far less satsified with is just galling.
This may all be moot - if they restrict items for sale to the point it's not worth having a shop - neither merchant or crafter is going to survive.
RumblingSky wrote:
Perhaps he's avoiding the question because he is in fact a (secret) crafter / master merchant who is simply looking to corner the market for his own goods by being one of the few to advertise and display his wares properly. *shrugs*
This is not intended as an insult, but after 3 tries to answer the question I'm thinking you are in the wrong profession. Politician might better suit your way of thinking.. oh wait, I just noticed you are a politician.
Just a hint.. (and there will probably be more to come).. answer the question or admit you can't. Don't skirt the issue.. it hurts your credibility.
Message Edited by DocSavag on 04-01-2004 01:07 PM
Message Edited by DocSavag on 04-01-2004 01:18 PM
- Fewer vendors with more stuff on them
- Crafters with no Merchant skills will have a vendor where they list ALL the crafted items they make (that they do not sell to someone for re-sale). Making it easier to find what you want from visiting fewer vendors.
- Only Artisans have the ability to have vendors, so loot and combat-related items will get sold for less (because we wont pay top dollar for stuff...there is no room for markup theres no room for profit), and the crafters/Merchant will resell them...bringing those items in larger quantites in fewer places. Making it easier to find what you want and seeing less empty vendors.
- Some crafters will sell in bulk to Merchants and only do custom work....this means a better variety of stuff on Merchant vendors in general, and this makes for better competition and lower overall prices. And customers will pay less and see more.
- Fewer empty vendors all over the place
- Only people who intend to SELL stuff and Hologrinders will have vendors up.Holo grinders may sell stuff to generate hits on their vendors for more XP.
- Much harder to travel all the way out to a remote location and see its empty...easting valuable time
- Better and more filtered advertising
- Only people who intend to SELL stuff will be able to advetise on the Planetary map. So it stands to reason that you will have a much better chance to find what you are looking for.
- Merchant crafters willhave an *effective* means to get the word out about their vendor...generating more hits, and more sales.
- "Cool" factor
- Silly or not, its cool to see the different types of vendors out there. And even more cool to see them dressed in unique ways. Right now its ho-hum..... This enhances the shopping experience. Enhaces the ambience of the game.
- Merchant Crafters can bark out specials they are holding, special sales, featured items, instructions....all leading to a more informed customer who buys smart...and RETURNS because of the good experience.
I know it will be a rough transition. But that kind of things will lead to a better overall system. Look at Chef. They got some attention...and at first everyone HATED it. They were so addicted to their dang Fishak that they could NOT see the possibility. Now virtualy everyone LOVES the revamp. It all boils down to the fact that as a living, growing game, it WILL change. And frequently. This is not Diablo or Doom, or even KOTOR. Those games are limited in scope by design. You follow a set path from point A to point B. SWG is not that ind of game. If it is determined that the Merchant perks can not be used if you drop the boxes, then so be it. People might quit. I wish them well. The net result will be a stronger, more interesting, more diversified game where everyone has their niche.
A better overall system huh?
Two Options:
1) Eliminate Merchant Profession skill point requirements.
2) Add a system of consigment, where I can go to my buddies vendor and with 'consignment' permission from him sell my wares. My buddy gets his set 10-25% commission on a sale - I get the rest - as the sale is made. This eliminates my need for a Merchant who can afford to buy the 2-3million credits worth or more ofstock I have on hand.
As it is now, it works. So what if you can unlearn it. Big Deal.
Until it is improved to WORK WITH OTHERS, there are no other solutions.
How many Merchants have the capital to stock 1 crafters goods? How about 2? 3?
What should a new merchant do? Get a loan?
If I have to relearn merchant, I have to give up Politician or my Crafting professioncompletely. Is that fair to me?
On second thought, maybe Merchant should just be eliminated altogether as a profession. Make vendors like lots, everyone gets 6 with all the Merchant abilities- and emptyvendorsSHOULD NOTshow on the map.
The Biz tree in Artisan could also accomodate the entire Merchant tree easily....
Right now, I have yet to see a benefit to Merchant except for the rich or guilded with money to burn and invest in stock.
DocSavag wrote:
The question is "What benefit does this issuebring to crafters and customers?"
Those are two different questions: For crafters I would reply: What benefit does armorsmith get from not having weaponsmiths create armor? What benefit does a Doctor get from only Artisans being able to survey resources? What benefit does a combat medic get from an Image Designer being the only one who can change your hairstyle? None. They aren't supposed to be getting benefit from the fact that each profession has its own unique abiltiies and limitations.
You are simply infuriating. You've not only tried to answer the question with a question, but you've done it with several questions and none of them have anything to do with the question.
Being able to make one thing and not another has nothing to do with how, when or where you sell an item. That is the point. Every profession you mention, with the exception of Image Designer, has at least one crafting tree and those people should be able to sell their wares as they see fit. Granted, being a Doctor and Combat Medic have other more practical uses, but being a straight crafter does not. You make an item then you sell an item. You are trying to take away our SOE GIVEN ABILITY to market our wares. If it were such a game breaking bug, why are they TALKING about putting it off until publish 11? If it's exploiting a bug, why are all of our accounts not cancelled?
Why have you still not answered the question?
In your extremely rediuclous example, I will say.. if Combat Medics ever had the option of changing someone's hairstyle and that was taken away from them.. yes, I would imagine they would want something in return.
See, here is another point of advise (and as a "correspondent", I bet you would get more done if you followed it). When you want to institute a change that is going to affect more than half of a gaming server, you need to be ready to compromise. You need to have ideas of positive change all around so no one feels totally screwed. Right now, you are offering nothing but taking everything. If you wondered why you've been facing so much opposition over something that should be trivial, that is it.
I don't know how many times I've gone to a vendor off the map to find it empty. I don't know how many hours I have wasted in this fashion. It's gotten to the point that I don't even shop that way anymore. I either purchase things off the forums or by word of mouth. I sure as hell don't listen to the starport spam and I would never purchase from anyone who makes the game less playable for me by spamming and creating the lag. I HAVE MANAGEMENT 3 and enough vendors!
So why am I arguing against you? You are offering nothing but taking everything! You must know something about negotiation.. you certainly know about skirting a subject and speaking with circular logic. One thing you could do is promote what I've mentioned hating in the last paragraph. This will not be enough for most of your opposition, but it will be a start. Get with the program, please.. otherwise we're all just wasting our time and ultimately we're all going to be unhappy with the results.. you included when you have to drop merchant because you're not making any money either.
LonelyGhost wrote:
Mayor is a HORRIBLE example to prove your point! There is no doubt in anyones mind that this profession sucks. It is WAY too costly for what you get, and there is no inherant personal advantages granted like the other professions. And, as our CS pointed out, the City advantages are DESIGNED to be activated by the Mayor but NOT require the mayor keep those skills. Guess what? If I drop the Customization tree, I can no longer drop Gardens. If we applied the Merchant existence to Politician, the Mayor woudl be able to drop Gardens even after dropping the skill...."Well, I went up the tree once, that shoudl be enough". The Mayor also can NOT institute new SPecializations if he drops the skill required to enable them.
RumblingSky We are not obligated to give you anything in order to ask that the loophole in our skill tree be fixed. And stop making this debate about what I think because it isn't. I do agree with it but I didn't start this opinion and I didn't start this thread. I don't happen to agree with you or others who want to keep things the way they are but your insistance that I agree with you or somehow justify the opinion of a number of merchants isn't reasonable. In the end if the devs want this changed they will change it and if they don't they won't.
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So - someone - anyone - Buford? What benefits are there to crafters and customers if ya'll get what you are asking for?
- Fewer vendors with more stuff on them
- Crafters with no Merchant skills will have a vendor where they list ALL the crafted items they make (that they do not sell to someone for re-sale). Making it easier to find what you want from visiting fewer vendors.
- Only Artisans have the ability to have vendors, so loot and combat-related items will get sold for less (because we wont pay top dollar for stuff...there is no room for markup theres no room for profit), and the crafters/Merchant will resell them...bringing those items in larger quantites in fewer places. Making it easier to find what you want and seeing less empty vendors.
- Some crafters will sell in bulk to Merchants and only do custom work....this means a better variety of stuff on Merchant vendors in general, and this makes for better competition and lower overall prices. And customers will pay less and see more.
- Fewer empty vendors all over the place
- Only people who intend to SELL stuff and Hologrinders will have vendors up.Holo grinders may sell stuff to generate hits on their vendors for more XP.
- Much harder to travel all the way out to a remote location and see its empty...easting valuable time
- Better and more filtered advertising
- Only people who intend to SELL stuff will be able to advetise on the Planetary map. So it stands to reason that you will have a much better chance to find what you are looking for.
- Merchant crafters willhave an *effective* means to get the word out about their vendor...generating more hits, and more sales.
- "Cool" factor
- Silly or not, its cool to see the different types of vendors out there. And even more cool to see them dressed in unique ways. Right now its ho-hum..... This enhances the shopping experience. Enhaces the ambience of the game.
- Merchant Crafters can bark out specials they are holding, special sales, featured items, instructions....all leading to a more informed customer who buys smart...and RETURNS because of the good experience.
Points one and two have very little to do with dropping merchant skills. I strongly suspect most of the empty vendors in the world are from folks that have left the game - I had 3 in my own shop.Why in the world would someone want to pay maintanaince on an empty vendor? If you think this will drop prices - it's probably because you think you can then buy them up, because they have no other CHOICE - and sell them at the current rates, sorry - I don't put that into the plus category for anyone but merchants - and even they will have a MUCH harder time coming by those goods to resell. I've asked before - when and if they institute item count limits - how in the world do you think you'll be able to keep a business going without having a sweatshop in your backroom - or perhaps that is the plan. Crafters that wish to wholesale can and do - do that right now. This is an attempt to strongarm those that do not into a behavior that is ONLY beneficial to YOU.
Point 3 could easily make merchant better WITHOUT touching the current system by moving premium sales to vendors and off the bazaar. Get rid of the vendors of folks that no longer have an active account and clean up the map - or make it so listing on the map is a weekly or monthly thing should take care of the rest.
Cool Factor - yeah - but I wouldn't hold my breath till they figure out how to do that one with dropped skills. And subsection 2 of point 4 ALREADY is given up with skill - they might continue to bark - but you can't change what they say. Course - in my experience - customers ignore them, although I do try to give out important information that way.
Most of the user population this affects I'm sure never checks this forum. I guarantee the outcry when and if this is discussed where they can see it will be heard clean to Austin. The fact remains - people have an inalienable right to sell their own products in an efficient manner. This does NOT keep the merchant from going that route if they wish - but you don't want to share playstyles. I swear - this reminds me of the old RP vs. PK arguments of UO. RP'ers can accomodate PKs in their worldview - they didn't like them - but they accepted them as a fact of life whereas PKs devalued RP'ers and made it a point to try to drive them from the game, not accepting their playstyle as valid. They were quite often successful. Just bear in mind - your 'opponents' here the way you are drawing the line is anyone that produces or buys product, i.e., your suppliers and customers.
Since I HAVE a master merchant - my store wouldn't change all that much - but I guarantee, if folks quit playing inmasse as is liable to happen and my customers go away - I, as a MERCHANT, will have no further reason to play either. When you have no crafters left to sell to you and have to do the work you apparently don't want to have to do yourself to have merchandise, and/or you have no customers because everyone threw up their hands and walked away in disgust - you'll have only yourselves to blame.