Merchant Archive
Thread: Some reasons why vendors should stay after you drop Merchant.
Attikus wrote:
"I agree that vendor management should be removed if the related skills are dropped"
Well I gots news for ya.... there are no related skills. There are no 'vendor management' skill mods for you to drop. They do not exist. And if you still dont know that, after even briefly skimming through this thread, or better yet, after reading the in game description of the skill mods that we do have, then yes, you have reading comprehension problems. You now have 7 pages of this thread to try to comprehend this point AND you have the in-game description of the mod - and you still do not get it. I mean, other posters have poked their heads in momentarily and understood what I've said perfectly - they may not like the fact that the skill works that way, but they at least understood why it is working that way. Which is really all I've ever been saying this whole time. "The skill works exactly as it is described."
The problem arises when you try to make the logical leap from "works as described" to "working as it should" or "working as intended", which you do below. The only group that can accurately state how it SHOULD work (from the perspective of design and ongoing intent for the game) are the Devs, and they HAVE spoken on this matter. What do the Devs think SHOULD happen?
"Merchant Skills should not be surrendered without the loss of the benefits of those skills."
Now, the primary benefit of having a vendor is the ability to make sales using that vendor. Placing that vendor is a PREREQUISITE to achieving that benefit, but the placement itself has no real effective value unless sales are made from it. The skill description doesn't specifically SAY that placing new listings is the benefit derived from having the skill, and in that sense, I hold that the description is simply inadequate for those who want to parse things a bit too literally. A vendor that is ONLY placed and never used is no real skill benefit.
What shocks me even more about responses like this, is that I am not even sure I'd be against changes that would force Merchants to lose the ability to manage vendors when they drop certain skill boxes. And I've never said anything to the contrary. In fact, I've offered up ways to make it like that. All I have been saying people, my sole point this entire time, has been that given the very clear description of our skill mods, and the way skill mods work in the game - the "Vendor" skill mod is working exactly as it should.
No, it's working as it literally SAYS. That is not necessarily the same as working as it SHOULD. If we were to take your literal interpretation and extension of it, we could say that the skill mods for Merchant would be "working as they should" if we turned off the ability for EVERYONE to list another sale on any vendor... ever.
Because there is no skill mod that specifically SAYS that you are allowed to list items on your vendors. It just says that you can place them.
To say that you should retain the ability to use the tools of the Merchant class (listing large numbers of unattended sales at any price, at multiple simultaneous locations) while having given up the skills, is to say that FORMER Merchants should have ongoing benefits that are unavailable to those who never took the skills in the first place.
I know of no other class where being a FORMER FooBar gives your character abilities that are unavailable to those who never took FooBar to begin with.
In every other case that I know of, surrendering the skill boxes means that your character has no advantage over another character that never took those boxes. Please feel free to provide a counterexample if you can... to qualify, a former profession-holder must be able to do something that someone who never took it CANNOT.
Whether or not that is a good thing, is clearly up to debate. I have not even begun to weigh in on that end of the issue, although many have presumed to know my feelings (just like they presume to know the intentions of the developers) because I've been spending my time trying to dumb down the explanation of how the vendor skill mod currently works and WHY it works that way, so that maybe we can all agree on how to change it.
You are ASSUMING that you know why it works the way that it does... and I hold that the assumptions that you are making are almost certainly logically flawed.
The problem here (as I see it) is a simple one of "bounds checking"... a concept that should be familiar to most who have programmed for a living (as I did for many years).
Vendors are a special case of a benefit offered by a profession, in that they allow the continued and ongoing production of work product WITHOUT an explicit check to see if you still have the skills associated with that benefit. It's quite likely a matter of "clean up" code simply not being in place.
Since there is no EXPLICIT skill for creating a listing on a vendor, the only current bounds-checking is almost certainly performed at the time of vendor placement. Since the vendor is tied explicitly to the character in question, this is a quick-and-dirty way to validate that the character meets at least the INITIAL criteria for receiving the benefit (to place 6 vendors, you need the appropriate skills). However, such a check is clearly insufficient to bring the benefits back into line with the rest of the population after forfeiting skills.
Most other implementations of profession benefits provide a natural point at which to perform bounds checking, which is quite likely why we appear to see no other professions with persistent (profession-specific) benefits after surrender.
I see only two real alternatives here: Either the Devs INTENDED for Merchant benefits (ongoing use of multiple vendors) to persist after the profession was surrendered, or they DIDN'T intend it.
Given what the Devs have already said on the issue, I hold that it is illogical to assume that they did intend for Merchant to be the only known profession to provide an ongoing benefit from being a FORMER member of that profession.
Instead, I think that it is simply far more likely that inadequate bounds-checking and cleanup code was implemented to ensure that those who surrendered the profession also forfeited the ongoing benefits that are otherwise exclusive to the profession.
If you've been offended by my flames and insults, I do apologize. I freely admit to lacking a diplomatic touch and letting frustration get the better of me. But the sooner you understand that the skill is working as described, the sooner we can reach a consensus about whether or not this is good or bad.
My fundamental point is that it is largely irrelevant if it operates AS DESCRIBED. The only meaningful question IMO is whether former Merchants should receive ongoing profession-specific benefits, when no other profession seems to give ongoing benefits to the former participants.
I haven't seen a logical reason presented yet for why FORMER Merchants should be the only class that gets to keep and continue to use the profession-specific tools of their trade after giving up all of the skill points required to get those benefits in the first place.
You're welcome to try to offer one.
LOL
Sorry I ever started this thread. The idea was to start some discussion, not to be flame bait.
For the record: I'm a Master Merchant and I wlll be dumping my vendors and my skills because the demand placed on me by players that lose their vendors will be too great.
One well thought and informed reply after another has been put up against Attikus' viewpoint, yet he continues to say that anyone who disagrees him is somehow stupid or uninformed. Weak. Very weak.
Come up with a thought of your own, then come talk to me... with the exception of maybe one other, who thankfully bowed out long ago, you've been the least helpful, the least articulate, and the least intelligent of the bunch. Hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Your reaching hard with that post... There is no skill mod that says you can run, walk, type, sit or ride a vehicle either. There are not skill mods for everything in the game.
Were you serious with that one?
Generally speaking, if there isnt a specific skill mod for an action, it means it is open to the community of players. Funny how using vendors exactly like that eh?
"No, it's working as it literally SAYS. That is not necessarily the same as working as it SHOULD. "
If you ask me, things SHOULD work the way they are described in the game.
"You are ASSUMING that you know why it works the way that it does"
No, I am reading the in-game description and stating that its working the way it should according to that description. I am not assuming a dang thing.... YOU are assuming.
Let's be more direct.
Here's a simple question. Please answer it.
Why should a FORMER Merchant still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after they have given up all Merchant skill boxes, when those who never took Merchant don't?
Here's another one: Do you honestly believe (given what they have ALREADY WRITTEN ON THE SUBJECT) that the Devs INTENDED for former Merchants to still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after people surrendered Merchant?
And again: What other profession out there in the game allows a former participant to have ongoing capabilities than someone who never took that profession in the first place CAN'T HAVE?
A straight and honest answer to these questions reveals why the change WILL BE IMPLEMENTED. All we're hashing over at this point is the minimal-impact (read "fairest") way to remedy the situation.
It's a fait accompli. Let's move on, and outline the remedy, shall we?
Personally, I favor the solution that I first saw posted by our Correspondent: Have vendors that are not supported by the appropriate skill boxes be marked as "inactive", with no new listings capable. People can pull things off if need be, or leave the merchants there and re-invest in the skill boxes to unlock them.
That gives people time to deal with the situation without having anything go "poof" on them right away.
BaudGnarly wrote:
Jebwa wrote:
Drop the merchant skills then you lose the ability to use the vendors. Enough said.
I dropped a few courses in college but I still remember what they taught me.
Do you really want the game to mirror life? Then it should take you years to become a master of any profession, not weeks.
Quick question to the remove vendors from non-merchants camp:
DO YOU REALLY WANT THERE TO BE HARDLY ANY VENDORS ON YOUR SERVER?
With holocron grinding, the average life expectancy of any Merchant will be about a month or two. With item limits, there will be no AS or WS vendors filled to the brim with goods because they won't have the skills to place a fully stocked vendor.
This will put all the power into the hands of those who have multiple accounts, and will actually serve to create monopolies in the game (something TH said the 150 item limit would prevent)
Had they made this change 2 months ago when I was really pumped on being a merchant, I would of used it as an opportunity to become the primary distributor of weapons, armor, and meds on my server. I would have ahd the best stocked shops with very very high markups on everything. That is the future of the Merchant profession. It will be more true to what a real merchant should be, and I think that is great for Merchants, but I think its very very bad for 98% of the player base.
BaudGnarly wrote:
Quick question to the remove vendors from non-merchants camp:
DO YOU REALLY WANT THERE TO BE HARDLY ANY VENDORS ON YOUR SERVER?
With holocron grinding, the average life expectancy of any Merchant will be about a month or two. With item limits, there will be no AS or WS vendors filled to the brim with goods because they won't have the skills to place a fully stocked vendor.
This will put all the power into the hands of those who have multiple accounts, and will actually serve to create monopolies in the game (something TH said the 150 item limit would prevent)
Had they made this change 2 months ago when I was really pumped on being a merchant, I would of used it as an opportunity to become the primary distributor of weapons, armor, and meds on my server. I would have ahd the best stocked shops with very very high markups on everything. That is the future of the Merchant profession. It will be more true to what a real merchant should be, and I think that is great for Merchants, but I think its very very bad for 98% of the player base.
How exactly do you make the merchant profession anything other than a throwaway profession without making people keep it if they are going to continue to be merchants? Add whatever you want but it doesn't help if the majority of the people aren't retaining their skills.
The only conclusion I come up with is that those of you who oppose fixing this situation must thing that merchant SHOULD be a throwaway profession and therefore this situation is just fine. Nothing you add to merchant will make up for the fact that people are practicing our profession without actually spending the skill points to do so.
Customers are better served by 1 fully stocked vendor with advertising in a good location and run by someone who is dedicated to the profession than they are by 10 poorly stocked scattered vendors run by people who no longer care about the profession at all and are off on other pursuits.
This profession can be fun to play. We should be working to make it more fun. But none of that is worth anything if the majority of the players using vendors and performing the merchant function are doing so without being merchants.
This is getting stupid, I said it befoire and I'll say it again
This is a moot point, it doesnt matter how cleverly you interperate the wording, it doesnt matter how many comparitives you can draw that support your position - this _is_ going to change, the devs have basically said so (by asking for ways to stop its abuse without crippling the exploiters)
It is patently obvious to anyone with any sence how vendorsare supposed to work, drop the skill - lose theability to sell through a vendor(and I mean sell, notplace or manage or anything else, I meansell)
Those of you predicting the sky is falling with massive loss of vendors, GOOD! more profit for me, I invested the skill points I should reap the benefit for keeping them, over those that dont (as long as they cant just turn to the bazaar if this price increase goes through)
When will some of you wake up and realise that we (merchants) are fighting to have more velue added to what is a very weak profession (even if this vendor problem did not exist) and yet here you are trying to makeus weaker
Invest the points and keep selling through vendors, dont want to invest the points you obviously dont want to sell through vendors.....
Skill points force you to make choices, keeping a vendor after dropping the skills frees you from that (currently very painful) choice
For you to ask me for specifc answers to those questions, is HILARIOUS. I really shouldnt do your debate homework for you (reading comprehension), because the answers are splattered across the pages of this thread about 25 times now it seems (reading comprehension), but alas, here I go.
"Why should a FORMER Merchant still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after they have given up all Merchant skill boxes, when those who never took Merchant don't?"
They SHOULD because that is the way the skill is described. There is no MANAGE VENDOR skill mod. Only a PLACE VENDOR skill mod. What we end up with is some silly game mechanic that has a specific skill mod (place vendor) giving access to a universal skill (manage vendor) - It's a HORRIBLY implemented game mechanic. But its working exactly as it is described in the game and is working exactly the way skill mods should and do work. Which is again, according to their description.
If your asking me if I think this is a good idea... go back and read my posts and figure it out yourself.
"Do you honestly believe (given what they have ALREADY WRITTEN ON THE SUBJECT) that the Devs INTENDED for former Merchants to still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after people surrendered Merchant?"
I have never pressumed to know what the devs orginally Intended - and neither should you. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind here.
"What other profession out there in the game allows a former participant to have ongoing capabilities than someone who never took that profession in the first place CAN'T HAVE?"
Hmm, lets see, I've only said it 6 times now (reading comprehension). Creature Handler. Stored Pets. Ring a bell? A Master CH can store something like 10 pets - a non CH can store 1 or 2. If the Master stores 10 pets in those ten datapad slots he is given, and then trains down out of CH, guess what... those 10 pets are still in his datapad. They do not disappear. He has retained a capability from a former profession that someone who never took the profession cannot have.
Ugh, yeah - oh yeah - am I good or what?
Gloating aside, this Vendor issue is not even as complicated as that because managing vendors is not a game skill like Stored Pets is. THERE IS NO MANAGE VENDOR SKILL. Placing vendors is the skill, and that skill is not ongoing after dropping the profession. When you drop the proffesion, you can no longer place vendors. Technically, we are not retaining anything even approaching what the CH is retaining.
"It's a fait accompli. Let's move on, and outline the remedy, shall we?"
Bravo
"Personally, I favor the solution that I first saw posted by our Correspondent: Have vendors that are not supported by the appropriate skill boxes be marked as "inactive", with no new listings capable. People can pull things off if need be, or leave the merchants there and re-invest in the skill boxes to unlock them."
Not sure I like this idea yet, but I havent given it due thought - I honestly dont see the huge deal in letting people manage vendors after they drop the 'place vendor' skill (with the small exception of possible storage exploit which as brought up and that I had not considered). I am open to persuation on the entire subject.
As of right now, I prefer adding other skills to the merchant profession that would entice players to keep the skill boxes. I think if we spend all of our time complaining about this vendor skill mod (which isnt broke), we will miss our chance (or delay it even more than we already have) to have some really cool and really worthwhile changes made to the profession
Attikus wrote:
They SHOULD because that is the way the skill is described. There is no MANAGE VENDOR skill mod. Only a PLACE VENDOR skill mod. What we end up with is some silly game mechanic that has a specific skill mod (place vendor) giving access to a universal skill (manage vendor) - It's a HORRIBLY implemented game mechanic. But its working exactly as it is described in the game and is working exactly the way skill mods should and do work. Which is again, according to their description.
For the record the actual wording of the "Vendors" skill mod refers to itself as "Manage Vendors".
All of this is irrelevent. I'm not going to waste any more time arguing over what the intent was or the description says. My point is this: The fact that you can surrender your merchant skills and continue to sell things using a vendor that you couldn't have if you hadn't been a merchant in the first place is just wrong. It is damaging this profession and nothing is gained by justifying it by examination of the skill mod system.
So if the point is you don't want it fixed, fine. Your opinion is noted and will be duly reported. If you are trying to convince the rest of us you are probably wasting your time. If you have a solution that makes this work somehow lets hear it.
If this post is just going to continue to bea flame fest I'm going to ask that it be locked.