Merchant Archive
Thread: Some reasons why vendors should stay after you drop Merchant.
Drop the merchant skills then you lose the ability to use the vendors. Enough said.
Jebwa wrote:
Drop the merchant skills then you lose the ability to use the vendors. Enough said.
I dropped a few courses in college but I still remember what they taught me.
BaudGnarly wrote:
Jebwa wrote:
Drop the merchant skills then you lose the ability to use the vendors. Enough said.
I dropped a few courses in college but I still remember what they taught me.
Yea but in life you don't have a limitation of 250 skill points to work with. Management of your skill points is one of the game mechanics designed to challenge you. You have to make choices about what you want to do. You can't do it all.
In life you can't do it all either. The limitations there tend to be financial and time restraints.
If you compare this to another another crafting-related profession in the game, As a Master Doctor (for example), you find that you can "make" a schematic (or as many as you want or as many different types as you want) to crate "Stimpack B" then drop the skills. You can still use the schematic after that point, but can't make any more schematics for it. This applies equally to WS, CM, AS, Artisan, and all other crafting-related professions.
It's exactly the same with Merchant. You can make a vendor, drop the skill, and still use it. You just can't make anymore of them, as it is with every other profession in the game. It just happens that most other people in the other professions don't take advantage of this, it's not that they can't. Every crafting-profession in the game gives you the ability to make something, drop it, and still take advantage of the skill.
This is the reason why vendors work as they do and they should stay as they are.
BaudGnarly wrote:
This won't help the thread much, but I'm trying to throw out another perspective:
A tailor makes a shirt and drops tailor. He can still wear the shirt.
A smuggler slices a gun and drops smuggling. His gun is still sliced.
A chef makes a crate of tatooine sunburn then drops chef. Can still drink.
A Bio Engineer makes a CL 10 pet, then drops BE. Can still use pet.
A Merchant creates a vendor then drops merchant. Can still use vendor.
Does it devalue the merchant profession more so than it devalues the others? Certainly. Is it causing database issues with people creating tons of vendors for storage? Probably.
But in terms of the semantics arguement, I think Atikus is right and the skill box clearly says you get the ability to place a vendor. On the other hand, Fett is correct too because the skill box is called "Management" not "Placement" so it is ultimately confusing. What did the devs intend? They haven't told us.
You're continuing to re-iterate the flawed analogy offered by Attikus, by trying to treat a tool as being equivalent to the work product of that tool.
The vendor is the tool of the merchant. This tool allows the Merchant (and to a limited extent, Artisans with sufficient skill boxes) to offer a large number of items for sale at unlimited prices, and to receive offers for the purchase of items, both in an unattended fashion.
To make the analogyaccurate, we should be careful to compare the tool of the vendor tothe tools of other professions.
Architects can perform experimentation on theirstructures during crafting by usingthe tool of their profession, the Structure Crafting Terminal. If an Architect subsequently surrenders all skill boxes in the profession, they will lose their ability to gain the benefits of that profession's tool.
Likewise with Chefs, Tailors, Weaponsmiths, Armorsmiths, etc. For each of these professions, gaining and HOLDING skill boxes is the requirement for being allowed to continue to use the tools of the profession at hand.
Much has been made in this thread about the (inaccurate) comparison of the WORK PRODUCT of a tool, to use of the tool itself.
"A tailor makes a shirt and drops tailor. He can still wear the shirt."
The shirt is the WORK PRODUCT of the tailor. But the tailor uses tools to help in the process of creating and customizing that shirt. The already-created work product will not disappear if the tailor chooses to drop all skill boxes (because that nasty Holocron said "Bounty Hunter", blast it!).
What will disappear? The ability to continue to use the tools for experimentation AFTER the skills have been dropped.
One of the other work products that can be produced by crafters is a schematic. That schematic will not disappear if the crafter drops their skill boxes. What will disappear? Their ability to experiment up a new one after the fact.
In professions other than Merchant, surrendering the skills means that the distinctive use of the profession's tools will be lost.
For the Merchant class (and upper parts of Artisan), the tool is the vendor, and the work product is a sales transaction. For work products, we see that Merchant matches other professions... if skills are surrendered, we don't expect that the transactions will somehow come undone.
Shirts don't disappear, and neither do past sales.
What makes the vendors such a source of contention is that people have gained access to the exclusive tools of the Merchant profession (the use of six simultaneous vendors), and have retained the USE of those tools even after surrendering all of their skills.
No other profession (that I know of) allows you to continue to use tool features that are EXCLUSIVE to a profession after all skill boxes for that profession are surrendered.
Put another way... after surrendering any other profession, the character has no additional capabilities than anyone else WHO NEVER TOOK THE PROFESSION. A former CH is identical in capabilities to someone who never went CH. A former tailor is identical to someone who never went tailor.
Many former Merchants are *NOT* the same as those who never took Merchant... because they retain the use of profession-specific tools that other cannot use (six simultaneous vendors).
Some will argue semantics and state that "it is working as documented". That belies the MORE RELEVANT fact that the documentation not reflect the state of the game as it was intended.
Personally, I don't sign up to play the documentation. I sign up to play the game. The purpose of having a limited pool of skill points is to force players to make tough choices about what skills their character holds AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT, and that set of skills should define what a player can do now... not their skill points PLUS what they chose to give up.
Retaining the use of tools exclusive to a profession after surrendering it is a case of "having your cake and eating it too". I hold that it is irrational to assume that Merchant should be the lone profession where former players get to have their cake, and eat it too.
If you surrender your points, you should surrender all of the CAPABILITES of that class, but none of the work product. Don't confuse the work product with the tool, and you'll have no problem understanding why the Merchants are upset.
The only "bug" I see is a flaw in the documentation, where the documentation states "Place Vendor" as opposed to the more accurate "Manage Vendor". Those who are enjoying the benefits of having their cake and eating it too are, of course, keen to find any kind of lawyerly maneuver that will justify their continuing to use tools that the rightfully should have been forced to surrender when they gave up the skills.
Don't be snowed by false analogies between tools and work products. Both the code and the documentation are flawed, so saying that they match is no virtue. They both need to be fixed, so that former Merchants will be no different than those who never took Merchant in the first place... just like every other profession in the game.
Katmer wrote:
. Both the code and the documentation are flawed, so saying that they match is no virtue. They both need to be fixed, so that former Merchants will be no different than those who never took Merchant in the first place... just like every other profession in the game.
I'll repeat this again: Have you seen the design document? Do you know what was intended by the development team?
I'll repeat this again: All artisans can make schematics, the schematics can be used even if that person drops all their skills. Thus, a former artisan maintains the ability to create objects using a schematic and a factory. A former Merchant currently maintains the ability to sell goods using a vendor.
A power gamer could, in theory: Hoard tons of resources, grind up to master in every Elite Artisan class, create schematics for all the items they want to produce, become a Master Bounty Hunter and have enough points for 1 vendor to sell Elite Artisan goods that THEIR FACTORY CRAFTS FOR THEM EVEN THOUGH THEY LACK THE SKILLS.
In the end, we are all just participating in the devs little ant-farm called the forums. We have to agree to disagree because opinions will not be changed. The only changes that will be made will come from on high and we will have to suck them up as merchants. We might get nerfed, or maybe Master Merchants will become super in demand from all the people who lost the ability to sell goods. Who knows.
A hardcore book person?
Are you trying to say that you read a lot?
Well I gots news for ya.... there are no related skills. There are no 'vendor management' skill mods for you to drop. They do not exist. And if you still dont know that, after even briefly skimming through this thread, or better yet, after reading the in game description of the skill mods that we do have, then yes, you have reading comprehension problems. You now have 7 pages of this thread to try to comprehend this point AND you have the in-game description of the mod - and you still do not get it. I mean, other posters have poked their heads in momentarily and understood what I've said perfectly - they may not like the fact that the skill works that way, but they at least understood why it is working that way. Which is really all I've ever been saying this whole time. "The skill works exactly as it is described."
What shocks me even more about responses like this, is that I am not even sure I'd be against changes that would force Merchants to lose the ability to manage vendors when they drop certain skill boxes. And I've never said anything to the contrary. In fact, I've offered up ways to make it like that. All I have been saying people, my sole point this entire time, has been that given the very clear description of our skill mods, and the way skill mods work in the game - the "Vendor" skill mod is working exactly as it should.
Whether or not that is a good thing, is clearly up to debate. I have not even begun to weigh in on that end of the issue, although many have presumed to know my feelings (just like they presume to know the intentions of the developers) because I've been spending my time trying to dumb down the explanation of how the vendor skill mod currently works and WHY it works that way, so that maybe we can all agree on how to change it.
If you've been offended by my flames and insults, I do apologize. I freely admit to lacking a diplomatic touch and letting frustration get the better of me. But the sooner you understand that the skill is working as described, the sooner we can reach a consensus about whether or not this is good or bad.
BaudGnarly wrote:
Katmer wrote:
. Both the code and the documentation are flawed, so saying that they match is no virtue. They both need to be fixed, so that former Merchants will be no different than those who never took Merchant in the first place... just like every other profession in the game.
I'll repeat this again: Have you seen the design document? Do you know what was intended by the development team?
I know that it is more reasonable to assume that the mechanics for skill treatment after surrender should MATCH on all professions, than it is to assume that they should match on all but one... especially since the Devs have already STATED that skills should not be retained after surrender, as has been pointed out multiple times in this very thread.
Are you saying that you know more about what should happen than the Devs? They've made their position on this matter clear: "Merchant Skills should not be surrendered without the loss of the benefits of those skills."
My position is wholly consistent with that sentiment... every other profession surrenders the benefits of their skills when they give up the skill boxes.
I'll repeat this again: All artisans can make schematics, the schematics can be used even if that person drops all their skills. Thus, a former artisan maintains the ability to create objects using a schematic and a factory. A former Merchant currently maintains the ability to sell goods using a vendor.
The part that you're missing is that EVERYONE can create objects using a schematic and a factory. A former Artisan in this case is NO DIFFERENT than someone who never took Artisan in the first place. There is no benefit derived from being a FORMER Artisan.
Why, then, should there be a benefit to being a FORMER Merchant? Answer: There shouldn't be, and the only reason there is, is because of a poor implementation.
In the end, we are all just participating in the devs little ant-farm called the forums. We have to agree to disagree because opinions will not be changed. The only changes that will be made will come from on high and we will have to suck them up as merchants. We might get nerfed, or maybe Master Merchants will become super in demand from all the people who lost the ability to sell goods. Who knows.
If you want to take that position, feel free... but I hold that it's silly to assume that NO ONE'S opinion will be changed by a well-formed argument (or more telling, a well-formed refutation of a poor argument).
Can we force the Devs to make a change? Of course not... but that doesn't mean that more voices raised in opposition will have the identical effect to fewer voices raised.
I'm writing to try to counter the (IMO) wrong-headed spin-doctoring being performed by some who apparently want to save their "feature" at the expense of those who have kept their points allocated to Merchant.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it's ineffective.
Attikus yet again belittles others' reading comprehension when he lacks the skill himself.
You have repeatedly failed to rebut the "Place Merchant Tent" argument. If the developers mean "Place" and not use, then why are we prevented from transferring tents to non-merchants?
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<P>Attikus wrote:
"I agree that vendor management should be removed if the related skills are dropped"
Well I gots news for ya.... there are no related skills. There are no 'vendor management' skill mods for you to drop. They do not exist. And if you still dont know that, after even briefly skimming through this thread, or better yet, after reading the in game description of the skill mods that we do have, then yes, you have reading comprehension problems. You now have 7 pages of this thread to try to comprehend this point AND you have the in-game description of the mod - and you still do not get it. I mean, other posters have poked their heads in momentarily and understood what I've said perfectly - they may not like the fact that the skill works that way, but they at least understood why it is working that way. Which is really all I've ever been saying this whole time. "The skill works exactly as it is described."</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color=#ffff00>The problem arises when you try to make the logical leap from "works as described" to "working as it should" or "working as intended", which you do below. The only group that can accurately state how it SHOULD work (from the perspective of design and ongoing intent for the game) are the Devs, and they HAVE spoken on this matter. What do the Devs think SHOULD happen?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff>"Merchant Skills should not be surrendered without the loss of the benefits of those skills."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffff00>Now, the primary benefit of having a vendor is the ability to make sales using that vendor. Placing that vendor is a PREREQUISITE to achieving that benefit, but the placement itself has no real effective value unless sales are made from it. The skill description doesn't specifically SAY that placing new listings is the benefit derived from having the skill, and in that sense, I hold that the description is simply inadequate for those who want to parse things a bit too literally. A vendor that is ONLY placed and never used is no real skill benefit.</FONT></P>
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<P><FONT color=#ffffff>What shocks me even more about responses like this, is that I am not even sure I'd be against changes that would force Merchants to lose the ability to manage vendors when they drop certain skill boxes. And I've never said anything to the contrary. In fact, I've offered up ways to make it like that. All I have been saying people, my sole point this entire time, has been that given the very clear description of our skill mods, and the way skill mods work in the game - the "Vendor" skill mod is working exactly as it should.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>No, it's working as it literally SAYS. That is not necessarily the same as working as it SHOULD. If we were to take your literal interpretation and extension of it, we could say that the skill mods for Merchant would be "working as they should" if we turned off the ability for EVERYONE to list another sale on any vendor... ever.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Because there is no skill mod that specifically SAYS that you are allowed to list items on your vendors. It just says that you can place them.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>To say that you should retain the ability to use the tools of the Merchant class (listing large numbers of unattended sales at any price, at multiple simultaneous locations) while having given up the skills, is to say that FORMER Merchants should have ongoing benefits that are unavailable to those who never took the skills in the first place.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>I know of no other class where being a FORMER FooBar gives your character abilities that are unavailable to those who never took FooBar to begin with.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>In every other case that I know of, surrendering the skill boxes means that your character has no advantage over another character that never took those boxes. Please feel free to provide a counterexample if you can... to qualify, a former profession-holder must be able to do something that someone who never took it CANNOT.</FONT></FONT></P>
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<P><FONT color=#ffffff>Whether or not that is a good thing, is clearly up to debate. I have not even begun to weigh in on that end of the issue, although many have presumed to know my feelings (just like they presume to know the intentions of the developers) because I've been spending my time trying to dumb down the explanation of how the vendor skill mod currently works and WHY it works that way, so that maybe we can all agree on how to change it.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>You are ASSUMING that you know why it works the way that it does... and I hold that the assumptions that you are making are almost certainly logically flawed.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>The problem here (as I see it) is a simple one of "bounds checking"... a concept that should be familiar to most who have programmed for a living (as I did for many years).</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Vendors are a special case of a benefit offered by a profession, in that they allow the continued and ongoing production of work product WITHOUT an explicit check to see if you still have the skills associated with that benefit. It's quite likely a matter of "clean up" code simply not being in place.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Since there is no EXPLICIT skill for creating a listing on a vendor, the only current bounds-checking is almost certainly performed at the time of vendor placement. Since the vendor is tied explicitly to the character in question, this is a quick-and-dirty way to validate that the character meets at least the INITIAL criteria for receiving the benefit (to place 6 vendors, you need the appropriate skills). However, such a check is clearly insufficient to bring the benefits back into line with the rest of the population after forfeiting skills.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Most other implementations of profession benefits provide a natural point at which to perform bounds checking, which is quite likely why we appear to see no other professions with persistent (profession-specific) benefits after surrender.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>I see only two real alternatives here: Either the Devs INTENDED for Merchant benefits (ongoing use of multiple vendors) to persist after the profession was surrendered, or they DIDN'T intend it.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Given what the Devs have already said on the issue, I hold that it is illogical to assume that they did intend for Merchant to be the only known profession to provide an ongoing benefit from being a FORMER member of that profession.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ffff00>Instead, I think that it is simply far more likely that inadequate bounds-checking and cleanup code was implemented to ensure that those who surrendered the profession also forfeited the ongoing benefits that are otherwise exclusive to the profession.</FONT></FONT></P>
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If you've been offended by my flames and insults, I do apologize. I freely admit to lacking a diplomatic touch and letting frustration get the better of me. But the sooner you understand that the skill is working as described, the sooner we can reach a consensus about whether or not this is good or bad.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><FONT color=#ffff00>My fundamental point is that it is largely irrelevant if it operates AS DESCRIBED. The only meaningful question IMO is whether former Merchants should receive ongoing profession-specific benefits, when no other profession seems to give ongoing benefits to the former participants.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffff00>I haven't seen a logical reason presented yet for why FORMER Merchants should be the only class that gets to keep and continue to use the profession-specific tools of their trade after giving up all of the skill points required to get those benefits in the first place.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#ffff00>You're welcome to try to offer one.</FONT>
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