Merchant Archive
Thread: Some reasons why vendors should stay after you drop Merchant.
Fool, I've put forward arguments and you've yet to address them.
Attikus wrote:
bober - it would be nice if YOU contributed to the discussion in some way other than circling around the people who do have something to contribute like a poodle saying "yeah see - see - yeah - see - what they said - yeah thats it - what they said"
Come up with a thought of your own, then come talk to me... with the exception of maybe one other, who thankfully bowed out long ago, you've been the least helpful, the least articulate, and the least intelligent of the bunch. Hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
He's obligated to reading posts from people who might have valid input into a topic. You're a waste of space and he owes you nothing.
Attikus wrote:
I cant believe you just said that. As moderator of these boards shouldnt you at least be obligated to READ the posts before commenting on them? You dont even have to leave this page to see a suggested solution by me - in factthe VERY post you quote offers a suggestion on how to make people keep vendor skills. You may not agree with it, but you certainly can not say that its not there.
I have most likely been overemphasising it anyway, and the "see I told you so" and gratification of being right about it is giving me diminishing returns. I mean, I guess its not really that big of a deal if half of us dont read the in game documentation, and the other half thinks it is irrelevant. The point is that Merchant is a throw away proffesion because of how our skill mods are currently set up. And almsot all of us, inclduding the devs, as far as I can tell, think this should change. (although there was an interesting thought a few posts back about the possibility that maybe Merchant should just be a throw away proffesion) - so instead of continuing to crusade for a lost cause, I would like very much if everyone here understood that I TOO WANT TO ENHANCE MERCHANT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT ENCOURAGES PEOPLE TO KEEP THEIR SKILL POINTS IN MERCHANT.
I wonder aloud, can this be done without changing the vendor skill mod as it currently works? Can you think of any way to encourage people to hold on to their Merchant skill points other than implementing a "manage vendor" skill mod? Something completely independant of this vendor issue maybe? And would you be willing to explore that as a means to the end instead of simply jumping on the vendor issue?
That is where I am leaning right now, but again I am pretty open to the debate.
Attikus wrote:
I wonder aloud, can this be done without changing the vendor skill mod as it currently works? Can you think of any way to encourage people to hold on to their Merchant skill points other than implementing a "manage vendor" skill mod? Something completely independant of this vendor issue maybe? And would you be willing to explore that as a means to the end instead of simply jumping on the vendor issue?
That is where I am leaning right now, but again I am pretty open to the debate.
I wonder too and I amwilling to explore anything that is logical andhas a chance of working, but I haven't seen any suggestion that would fix the fact that as long as you don't have to have merchant skills to sell your merchandise you don't have a strong merchant profession.
Attikus wrote:
...but again I am pretty open to the debate.
No you're not. You're a pompous ass who avoids debate because you'll be proven wrong time and time again. I've proven your semantic "Place" argument to be false yet you continue to hide behind it. You've failed to address why the skill is called "Place Merchant Tent" only to have the developers prevent us from placing the tent and then transferring the tent to somebody with Efficiency 4.
Attikus wrote:
Come up with a thought of your own, then come talk to me... with the exception of maybe one other, who thankfully bowed out long ago, you've been the least helpful, the least articulate, and the least intelligent of the bunch. Hope that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Amusement value. Do you always wait until you think someone isn't looking to take cheap shots at them? What I find amusing about it is for all of the 'least helpful, least articulate, and least intelligent' descriptors of me as a poster, you seemed to spend a rather large amount of time running away from the points I presented and attempting to nitpick semantics around the edges. I stopped POSTING in the thread, I didn't stop reading it.
Quitpointing at the degeneration of this conversation when you're slinging insults as furiously as you possibly can.
Just to keep my foot in the door.
1) Attikkus adds credence to the old adage "A little education is a dangerous thing" - not going to go into why, not worth my time.
2) Best argument that supports keeping the vendors post skill drop is on the big TH vendor nerf thread. Using what I consider a "not too shabby" premise(unlike someone elses) bycomparing Merchant toPolitician.
Cheers...
Oh and Attikkus go get laid or something.
BaudGnarly wrote:
Quick question to the remove vendors from non-merchants camp:
DO YOU REALLY WANT THERE TO BE HARDLY ANY VENDORS ON YOUR SERVER?
This is the equivalent of saying to those that are against money-duping, do we want there to be no money on our servers. It's also a completely specious argument unless we share your assumptions.
With holocron grinding, the average life expectancy of any Merchant will be about a month or two. With item limits, there will be no AS or WS vendors filled to the brim with goods because they won't have the skills to place a fully stocked vendor.
Evidence? Show me the statistics on the number of vendors on a server, furthermore show the statistics that indicate that those who went up merchant and then dropped it represent a significant %% of the merchants on any given server.
Given the number of empty vendors the belong to Holo- and Ex- merchants, I think that in general I would vastly prefer there to be 60-70% fewer vendors out there, because 60-70% of vendors on Ahazi - Naboo hold nothing, or hold complete garbage.
Will Ex-Merchants losing their vendors cut down on the number of vendors on the server? Certainly, now ask yourself how many of those vendors that disappear actually belong to those who run a business?
As for the item limits, we'll see what happens with those as they're not in yet and they may in fact become a moot point.
This will put all the power into the hands of those who have multiple accounts, and will actually serve to create monopolies in the game (something TH said the 150 item limit would prevent)
Please, please, please shoot this dead horse? It's not possible to create a monopoly, on SWG. It's Just. Not. Possible. Because there are PLENTY of Master Merchant/Master Crafters and they'll benefit from Merchants having extra items under the limit JUST as much as those with multiple accounts will.
Had they made this change 2 months ago when I was really pumped on being a merchant, I would of used it as an opportunity to become the primary distributor of weapons, armor, and meds on my server.
Except no, you wouldn't. Because plenty of Armorsmiths, Weaponsmiths and Doctors are Master Merchants, or would BECOME Master Merchants before the patch goes live. You wouldn't be able to match the variety of any of those Crafter/Merchants, and while you'd get a 1-stop shopping niche you wouldn't be able to get anything like a dominant market share.
And yes, I'm back in the thread. It's amazing how insults aimed at my back will convince me not to leave the field uncontested.
This is my breakdown:
HIRING - Nice, but does it really matter to your buyer what the vendor is as long as he sees it? Only a tailor could make a legitimate arguement why they NEED to dress their vendors up. Even then I think it's not worth the skill points.
EFFICIENCY - Merchant tents are good. It frees up an extra lot and is noticable from a distance, it's expensive skill point investment though. Low bazaar fees = a joke. 20 credits is less than the loot off a meatlump. I don't know of many serious merchants who use the bazaar for sales other than as an advertising tool. Lower maintenance rates aren't bad, but if you're a good merchant you're probably making enough that it's not that big a deal. I'd consider this one skill nice, but not NEEDED.
ADVERTISEMENT - Barking is overrated and of little use. On the other hand, Planetary map registration is wonderful, it's the only skill I see as "money" and really worth the skill points.
MANAGEMENT - Do you really need 6 vendors? Sure, it can help to organize your store but it's not NEEDED. If people know the vendor is stocked or get used to it they'll look through it, sort it, use the "weak" search funtions like the bazaar to find what they need. How many of you really set up more than 2 shops throughout the galaxy? If you can keep 3 or more shops up and well stocked (especially if you're only running one account) you should be congratulated.
Give merchants the ability to link vendor sales to the bazaar, immediate cross-planet delivery options, higher bazaar sell prices (increasing with skill progression), etc and this wouldn't be an issue as people would find merchant useful and wouldn't drop it like a bad habit. All of these things could be applied to an item at the time it was put up for sale and couldn't ever be used retroactively (these may persist on a single item after the required skill is dropped, but the benefits are small and shortlived).
This would go a long way in eliminating this entire debate.
Attikus wrote:
Katmer -
For you to ask me for specifc answers to those questions, is HILARIOUS. I really shouldnt do your debate homework for you (reading comprehension), because the answers are splattered across the pages of this thread about 25 times now it seems (reading comprehension), but alas, here I go.
Just a brief aside? 's-p-e-c-i-f-i-c' Ifone isgoing tomalign someone's reading comprehension,one should probably use spell check, no?
"Why should a FORMER Merchant still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after they have given up all Merchant skill boxes, when those who never took Merchant don't?"
They SHOULD because that is the way the skill is described. There is no MANAGE VENDOR skill mod. Only a PLACE VENDOR skill mod. What we end up with is some silly game mechanic that has a specific skill mod (place vendor) giving access to a universal skill (manage vendor) - It's a HORRIBLY implemented game mechanic. But its working exactly as it is described in the game and is working exactly the way skill mods should and do work. Which is again, according to their description.
In 1903 the Russian Czar, Nicholas II, noticed a sentry guard posted on the Kremlin grounds for no apparent reason. Upon inquiry and much research, it was discovered that 127 years earlier, in 1776, Catherine the Great found in that spot the first flower of spring and had a guard posted there to protect it from being trampled. Some traditions die hard. Sometimes it hard to stop doing things the way they've always been done. Change is often met with fierce resistance.
This is where we are right now.The fact of the matter is however that the Devshave stated this should not be the case, the devs have stated they want to fix this situation. Presumably as part of that change, the description of the skill will be altered to reflect the reality of it.
'But skill mod this, skill mod that, documentation'... thisargument is sheer obfuscation, and you know that. This game has dozens of different things that are documented one way, but work a different way, and dozens of things that operate in a specific way, that aren't documented anywhere. To fall back on the documentation as the last ultimate defense is a flimsy argument, and again you know this.
Vendors are not shirts,vendors are not guns,vendors are not the work product ofany of those classes.'But all those other classes, the product of skillmods and theireffects can still be used!'. That argument would have substance if every other skill mod in the game and their relevant functionality worked that way... but they don't. Some interesting examples have been ignored bythe 'skill mods' argument and I thought I'd bring them up:
'Survey Tools' the ability to create these is a skill mod, just like the ability to make guns is a skillmod for a weaponsmith.If I make a survey tool for myself, can I still use it once I've dropped artisan? No. The model, fails.
'Crafting Tools' the ability to create these is a skill mod, justlike the ability tomake guns is a skill for a weaponsmith. If I make acrafting tool for myself, can I still use it once I've dropped artisan? No. Again, the model fails.
'Buffs' the ability to create a buff is aDoctor skill mod, just like the ability to make guns is a skill for weaponsmith. If I make a buff for myself, can I still use it once I've dropped Doctor? No. Again, the model fails.
'Stimpacks' 'Vitality Packs' 'Medpacks' etc.. etc... etc... each and every one of these ceases to be usable by the crafter if you drop your skills past a certain point. Even though they're the product of skillmods.
Now some of you will say they can still be used by other people with the correct skill levels, I agree with that. Unfortunately due to a quirk, or a design decision, vendors can't be transferred to other players. Yet another example of how the skillmods and products of those skillmods are inconsistent within the game.
So, let's drop all that 'Like every other skillmod in the game' nonsense alright? Because many of them do in fact work quite differently from one to the other, so they can't be used to establish precedent because they are 'unclassable', so need to be treated as discreet entities.
This brings us all the way back to... Vendors.
"Do you honestly believe (given what they have ALREADY WRITTEN ON THE SUBJECT) that the Devs INTENDED for former Merchants to still have access to Merchant-exclusive capabilities after people surrendered Merchant?"
I have never pressumed (presumed) to know what the devs orginally (originally) Intended - and neither should you. Irrelevant is the word that comes to mind here.
True enough, the original poster forgot your penchant for playing semantics and left you too much wiggle room, so let's try this a different way:
The Development Team, through their representative 'Thunderheart', have made it clear their desire to address the situation where ex-merchants can continue to benefit from the skillmods of the merchant class, specifically vendors. Given this fact how do you defend the position that Vendors should remain for ex-merchants when it has been clearly expressed by the development team that this is a situation that must be, and will be,addressed?
"What other profession out there in the game allows a former participant to have ongoing capabilities than someone who never took that profession in the first place CAN'T HAVE?"
Hmm, lets see, I've only said it 6 times now (reading comprehension). Creature Handler. Stored Pets. Ring a bell? A Master CH can store something like 10 pets - a non CH can store 1 or 2. If the Master stores 10 pets in those ten datapad slots he is given, and then trains down out of CH, guess what... those 10 pets are still in his datapad. They do not disappear. He has retained a capability from a former profession that someone who never took the profession cannot have.
But he does not in fact retain the ability 'to store' 10 pets in his datapad. He has the ability to hold 10, but if he has 9 pets,hecannot store an additional one to make 10. Therefore he has the ability to retain the data in his datapad but not in fact, 'to store' additional pets above the limit. This is also by the way, a flawed game mechanic and I believe is on one of the CH issue lists. I've certainly heard several MCHs grousing about it.
Ugh, yeah - oh yeah - am I good or what?
Well yes, by justifying the current vendor system with a broken game mechanic you've certainly gone a long way towards making your own argument look much more like an attempt to preserve a cushy flaw in game mechanics. So that would, I presume be 'good' under some definitions.
Gloating aside, this Vendor issue is not even as complicated as that because managing vendors is not a game skill like Stored Pets is. THERE IS NO MANAGE VENDOR SKILL. Placing vendors is the skill, and that skill is not ongoing after dropping the profession. When you drop the proffesion (profession), you can no longer place vendors. Technically, we are not retaining anything even approaching what the CH is retaining.
Correct, you are retaining an on-going, active, ability to use a vendor to sell items. The Ex-CH cannot store a new pet past the 2 limitif he's over the limit for non-CHs, so he does not retain the skill mods of his former class, nor can he call/control those over the CL 10 limit. So yes, what the Ex-Merchant retains far outclasses what that Ex-CH retains.
"Personally, I favor the solution that I first saw posted by our Correspondent: Have vendors that are not supported by the appropriate skill boxes be marked as "inactive", with no new listings capable. People can pull things off if need be, or leave the merchants there and re-invest in the skill boxes to unlock them."
Not sure I like this idea yet, but I havent given it due thought - I honestly dont see the huge deal in letting people manage vendors after they drop the 'place vendor' skill (with the small exception of possible storage exploit which as brought up and that I had not considered). I am open to persuation (persuasion) on the entire subject.
See arguments ad infinitum re: DB space, people getting the best Merchant abilities at no cost of skill points, etc, etc.
As of right now, I prefer adding other skills to the merchant profession that would entice players to keep the skill boxes. I think if we spend all of our time complaining about this vendor skill mod (which isnt broke), we will miss our chance (or delay it even more than we already have) to have some really cool and really worthwhile changes made to the profession
Personally, I'd prefer to end the abuse of the broken game mechanic that allows various forms of 'grandfathering' before they further fiddle with the merchant chain. Because fixing the vendors is FAR more likely to happen than other skill enhancements.
Attikus wrote:
I wonder aloud, can this be done without changing the vendor skill mod as it currently works? Can you think of any way to encourage people to hold on to their Merchant skill points other than implementing a "manage vendor" skill mod? Something completely independant of this vendor issue maybe? And would you be willing to explore that as a means to the end instead of simply jumping on the vendor issue?
I'm definitely in favor of incentives that encourage folks to keep their Merchant skill points.
I'd certainly be willing to explore changes that help meet that goal.
However, I see the use of vendors in numbers beyond those supported by the appropriate skill boxes (which are currently labeled "Place Vendor") to be a completely separate issue. That's not a question of making the Merchant profession appealing... that's a question of whether people are allowed to continue to use the primary tools of a profession after having given that profession up.
It's a question (to me) of FORCING people to make the same tough choices that pretty-much all other professions do. No one should be permitted to continue to produce NEWwork-product from a profession if they chose to give it up... to me, thats what GIVE IT UP means. You forfeit the benefits in order to get the skills back.
As a rule, I believe that any former member of a profession should be functionally identical to someone who never took the profession to begin with. And in almost every case, that's true in this game. Attikus pointed out an additional loophole for former Creature Handlers, where an excessive number of pets remain in their datapad after skill surrender. I see that being permitted as a concession by the Devs to allow people to sell the excessive pets that they have (but produce no new ones) rather than just lose them. It's unfortunate that such people can keep more (very basic) pets available for use than the rest of the community, but that's a pretty small concession, which doesn't provide any real business competition to those who kept Creature Handler.
In that sense, the concession is little different from that proposed by DocSavag for resolving this "excess vendor" situation. If the vendors are marked inactive, people don't lose the items listed on the vendor outright. Instead, they are given the opportunity to offload them. No lost items, just like no lost pets.
The only thing this stops is people trying to perform ONGOING NEW BUSINESS with tools that they are no longer entitled to use... in the same way that a former Creature Handler is unable to receive any new pets until the backlog of old ones are cleared out. Allowing new listings on excess vendors allows former Merchants to continue to compete (pretty-much forever)with existing Merchants, without the skill point investment.
In fact, I think I'd go a step farther than what DocSavag recommended (as I recall it), and state that any items already listed on excess vendors should (perhaps) be allowed to complete their current sales cycle, but that new listings should be disabled until the vendor count is brought into line with the number of vendors supported by the "Place Vendor" skill. That would give people time to complete their business and adopt an appropriate strategy over time.
As mentioned earlier, it doesn't appear that continuing to debate whether they "should" be there would be useful, since the Devs appear to be closing this particular loophole.
But if you have ideas for Merchant enhancements that would somehow outweigh the use of the profession's primary work-product tool, I'd love to hear them. If there is such a case, I'd be open to at least considering it. (It would have to be a pretty massive advantage to swamp the importance of continued tool use, IMO, but I don't assume that such things are impossible.)
So by all means, present your excellent ideas for enhancing the Merchant profession. Any and all good ones will get my support.
EOLA have you lost your mind? You have just proven my point about your reading comprehension once again. At no point in that post was I even remotely referring to you. That is just TOO funny!!!
And the person I WAS talking about, I took shots at him when he was here - so no, I dont wait to take shots at people when they arent looking.
Un-Believable