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Thread: AI Changes
Warryyr
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:28 pm
#105
Niyol wrote:
If you have concerns about the current state of the space AI, please continue to voice your opinion. Just saying it sucks and you are going to quit your account does not get anything accomplished. If you would like to help test our AI changes, please go to Test Center and play a little (there are ship AI changes on Test Center).
Am I mistaken that this current AI was already tested at the end of Betaand was removed after a large player outcry that the system was terrible?
You are not.
These same jousting tactics are what caused a gigantic uproar during Beta. So, logically, what do the Devs do? They put it on Live. Way to instantly turn a fun expansion into a gigantic waste of time, Dev team. Top notch work, as always.
Jump to Lightspeed is a waste of my time now. As Niyol put wonderfully, if your goal was to make the AI challenging and fun, you've completely failed.
At least I'm playing Entertainer on the ground more, and making more droids again. But, I wasted $30 on an expansion I'll never play again. Waste of time and effort if front shields and armor are all that matter, and regardless of how good those are,I get pummeled mercilessly by ships I can never catch up to, let alone get more than 1 or 2 hits in per "joust." After about 3 sweeps, the NPC squad has me at 0 shields and 0 armor, and ONE of them - ONE OF THEM - is at MAYBE 50% shields. What a joke.
Ace2
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:29 pm
#106
swgdevmbogue wrote:
We are aware of all the concerns and opinions about the AI. We are constantly adjusting the AI to make it challenging and fun. If you have concerns about the current state of the space AI, please continue to voice your opinion. Just saying it sucks and you are going to quit your account does not get anything accomplished. If you would like to help test our AI changes, please go to Test Center and play a little (there are ship AI changes on Test Center). After playing on Test Center please, come back by, say you played there, and voice your thoughts on what you liked, did not like, and any opinions on how it should be. This will help us the most in making the AI fun for everyone.
I know some of you will complain that you have to start from scratch on Test Center. Honestly, it does not take very long to get through the first few tiers of JTL. Thanks for playing.
Stay the hell away from the AI changes, it anoys the #$^& out of me with the constant crewing up things. I was planning to do some fun hunting today but oh no, the devs had to mess it up again. So far since luanch i lost millions to armor wich it's improved and the pre-patch ones now just suck, i lost ALLOT more on chassis that i cant sell no more, one day of anoyance because of the AI that is now faster then the light of speed without using their hyperdrive, thank god i didnt make a firepray yet or i could trow those away as well.
Change the AI back and leave it the hell alone.
You got test center, use it FFS.
Ducimus
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:30 pm
#107
edit: woops, wrong thread. Pwned by Firefox tabs.
Message Edited by Ducimus on 11-17-2004 11:41 AM
Iawalein
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:32 pm
#108
Rebels don't have engine overload commands.
I know that you can try getting someone else to program the chip, but I forsee that devs calling that an exploit.
It would appear that they intended each command to only work for the appropriate faction.
I know that you can try getting someone else to program the chip, but I forsee that devs calling that an exploit.
It would appear that they intended each command to only work for the appropriate faction.
Martyn
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:32 pm
#109
REally? That is cool, I will have to drop in and level up a pilot if that is true 
.
I have tried getting started on Test Center before, and it wasn't easy.
.I have tried getting started on Test Center before, and it wasn't easy.
truewildman
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:34 pm
#110
Iawalein wrote:
Rebels don't have engine overload commands.
I know that you can try getting someone else to program the chip, but I forsee that devs calling that an exploit.
It would appear that they intended each command to only work for the appropriate faction.
No, it's not an exploit. It's working as intended.
Ace2
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:35 pm
#111
Ok now a rant-free post.
The AI changes change the game into chase the ship and see if you can get a few shots in before he flies past you at insane speeds.
It isn't a dogfight game anymore, it's a turn, wait and aim game where you just sit and wait till he comes flying right at you and try to take out his engines as fast as possible.
And i will, like the other guy, quit my account of these changes stay. JTL is all i play for now and now it's just horrible, fighting this way aint fun.
JimerLins
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:43 pm
#112
Trystim wrote:
If you don't want to play in a system that caters to the skilled in FPS/flight-sim games, may I humbly suggest that JtL was never for you? It's not a question of easy/hard. You're complaining about a core aspect of the game mechanics for JtL; the flight-sim AI. Personally, I want the AI to be as close to a human as possible. I want it to be tough to beat. I wish the AI was better and their ships not so bloody tough. If I had a ship with that much armor and shielding, I'd be able to solo the Death Star
I'm sorry I thought JTL was an expansion to the already existing Star War Galaxies MMORPG. Hrm..maybe I'm wrong
maybe SOE decided to make their own Star Wars version of half-life. Everyone should have a fair chance to progress
to master pilot, not just the 'skilled' FPS pilots, a good number of swg players never played anything like half-life or
Xwing vs. Tie fighter. Should those players be left out? Certainly not. Just look at the multiplayer ships. Why should anyone
have to be a FPS xwing vs tie fighter guru pilot god to be able to take their friends up in a YT1300, decorate it, and roleplay with some of
their own star wars ideas? Doesn't make quite as much sense now, does it? One of the main problems I've had with JTL from the very
beginning is giving only master pilots the cert for multiplayer ships (which would be a roleplayers dream) only to nearly require players
to be skilled FPS pilots in order to use a multiplayer ship. This new A.I. change is just another nail in the coffin to that issue.
"I'd be able to solo the Death Star" Typical cocky response from players of the FPS guru type. Ok, 'Luke' go for it... I'm not stopping you.
I just want to be the guy who knocks Darth Vader out of your way so you don't get toasted before you can 'solo the deathstar'
No, everyone shouldn't have a chance to progess. The ground game doesn't rely on your eye-hand coordination or combat skills, it relies on your talent and decision-making ability. JtL is exactly the opposite; a "twitch" based game that relies on your hand-eye coordination, combat awareness, and in general, your ability to use skills while flying. That's exactly what JtL is. A game shouldn't have to be all things to all people; some folks simply don't want or can't play them. That's not something that should constrain the game from being the best it can be for those who do want to and can play it.
What JtLis NOT (and this I cannot emphasize more) is for everyone. If you can't play a flight sim, why did you buy a flight sim? I mean, honestly- JtL is a space-based flight sim that relies on the player's innate ability, and not the character template one chooses, to determine the outcome of a battle. If you're saying you want that to change, I'm telling you you're not going to get it. Unlike the ground game, there's no guarantee that you'll win going into something because of your template or items. You can have a great ship and uber
Here's how it works- if you want the multiplayer ship certs, if you want to defeat these missions, here's your answer: Get better. It's not hard to do, and it's not something that only a "FPS guru" (whatever that is) can do. I don't play that much, maybe an hour or two a night, and haven't played an FPS for years. Start participating, not simply expecting things to come to you. If you want pure RP with no need for skills, perhaps a LARP or tabletopwould be better and more rewarding for you. This is an MMO, which means that you combine aspects of RP and skill-based games, and you have to jump through hoops to accomplish goals in game. If that's not acceptable to you, then I'm sorry to say that my original comment stands- this game isn't for you.
And before you make too many more assumptions, you might consider that I'm an RPer myself, and in fact run a tabletop RPG more often than I play SWG. I prefer RP and immersion wherever possible. I figure from an RP standpoint, I should be a pretty darn good pilot in order to fly a YT-1300. It's a big, expersiveship, with heavy armament. In RP terms, not every person with a space driver's license should get one, any more than every person with a real driver's license can drive a bus. It requires special training and practice to do it. If you want to RP a freighter pilot without having to work at it in game, and would rather RP the skills required to fly such a ship, then simply put, JtL isn't the game you should be playing. There's a Star Wars roleplaying game, there's LARPs and many other outlets for that sort of activity. In JtL, one of the factors is skill, and that cannot and must not change.
In "The Thirteenth Warrior", a poet who has been sent to war is given a sword and says "I cannot carry this!". The reply? "Grow stronger!"
Grow stronger.
JimerLins
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:53 pm
#113
In simple terms of the AI, I tend to think that the changes are both good and bad. I don't like the "joustathon" much. But I didn't like the merry-go-round either.
Here's the problem, and I'm not sure what the resolution is, but at least we should clearly define the parameters of the problem first. The AI isn't good enough to compete with players (and it may not be possible for it to do so), so the NPC ships compensate by having amazing armor,shields and engines, allowing the ships to outperform the PC ships, and (in theory) allowing the player to outthink the NPC ships by flying better.
Here's what I think is needed:
More variation in the NPC flying style. Give them some individualized "quirks", maybe randomly selected. In chess AI, for example, you can define affinity for woodpushing, pawngrabbing, positional, or material. Come up with some affinities for piloting styles, such as jouster, turn-and-burn, agile, missile freak, trigger-happy, precisicion shooter, formation flyer, wingman, defender, attacker, and so on. Randomly assign these variables to NPC pilots and let them drive the way they fly. That alone could make a huge difference, especially in situations where you have multiple NPC ships; not knowing what the guy coming around will do next is something that would make things quite fun.
Make the NPCs "smarter" and their ships less uber. The majority of players, I think, would prefer to fight an evenly balanced opponent rather than alwaysplaying the fly to the horse, just trying to stay alive long enough to sting the horse to death.
Give NPCs varying levels of accuracy. One guy might be a dead-on shot, while another might rely on low-powered, low-damage blasters that his capacitor can spew out all day like a firehose.
Vary NPC equipment more- right now, each ship is a clone of the others. Making them have different guns, missiles and engines would be interesting indeed.
These are just a few thoughts. I'm sure others can add to these.
JehuBBR
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:55 pm
#114
New ideas are great... but can we please undo the change while those new ideas are being worked on?
pretty please?
I want to play.
pretty please?
I want to play.
GangaWolf
Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:56 pm
#115
JimerLins wrote:
No, everyone shouldn't have a chance to progess....
If it isn't open to everyone, than SOE shouldn't mind players quitting the game.
What if SOE made "super Jedi" to anyone that could pay $1000 per month? So players who can afford it will tell others "suck it up and get a better job if you want it". It's not there fault that they can afford it. I know it is an extreme example, but some players can play twitch, some can't. Some people can get and succeed at high-paying jobs, some can't.
I'm not saying that the quickest path to Master Pilot shouldn't be the hardest. However, SOE should create a longer and slower path for those whose reflexes aren't as quick as they used to be. It still provides them with the opportunity to get at the content, and doesn't unfairly hurt the "expert twitcher" out there. Right now there is no alternatives.
And for the record, I am a "twitch" player. I just think that for a game like this to be successful you need to create alternatives to appeal to the largest number of people possible.
truewildman
Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:13 pm
#116
Trystim wrote:
"He's not going anywhere. He's been "threatening" that for months now. /eyeroll"
Months? Sir, would you please post factual information in which you base this claim.
I got angry over these speed changes and posted once concerning installing the
game. Being at 4433 and almost reaching the end goal, You're darn right I was angry
at the changes. You sir, are being a troll. Leave me be. In response to another post,
I don't agree with the master cert for the YT, however, that isn't the issue here.
Nor do I believe such things should be handed to anyone (Looks like you're assuming
just as much as me) If analogies can be so exaggerated then why use one in the first
place. Look, the real issue is the speed increase. In my opinion it unbalances my
enjoyment of the game. My opinion isn't immature, it's how I percieve these new
changes. Yes, at first I was angry and frustrated much like Mr. Troll here was
when the kessel sector was changed. However I got over and I'm now posting here
lobbying for a reversion or a better alternative so I can get back to flying and get off these
darn forums. Boslo > Your stance here doesn't really address the same problems that
I might see because you are already a master pilot and you got that before this speed
change. You have not experienced the speed changed as a lower level pilot and therefore
it would be really hard for any lower level pilot to understand where you are coming from
and vice versa. So please spare me the elitest rhetoric and help us all convince the devs
to implement an a.i. that is enjoyable and fun for both sides of the spectrum
Point taken, Trystim. 
I am master and the new AI, although noticeable, poses no real threat to me. And, I sincerely apologize if I sounded "elitist". I certainly do not view myself as such.
Thirdly, we know, and the dev pointed out, that the true way to help fix the AI is to join TC and offer pointers based on the AI in your TC experience, as the AI on TC right now is different than in live, and not by posting how much you think it sucks right now.
You see, one way is constructive, the other way is not.
Trystim
Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:20 pm
#117
Boslo: Message Noted
And actually I would have ran to get on test center and see if there's any changes
but it's currently down. I say 'see if there's any changes' because well, I just don't
trust them anymore. The previous a.i. was challanging and hard for me. But I pulled
through and was really looking forward to my 'earned' masterhood. However, after
this speed deal, it's kinda unplayable for me, my ship nor my skills have the 'ummf'
to counter more than one of these speed enhanced fighters at once. Which taking
one at a time very slowly trying to get 2 million xp can really discourage just about
anyone. I haven't logged into the game since then. It's a shame too, i was just starting
to get past the initial 'new to twitch' hurdle and start to enjoy myself. Well, hopefully
something else will be implemented and i can once again test my new twitch skills
instead of my already thin patience