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fav wrote:

Well its been debated in the beta and the devs kept it in for live so I think its safe to say they've heard both sides of this already. Though I don't think griefing is going to be as big a problem as most people make it out to be,

The problem is that it's not really griefing for the most part. Most kills in Kessel will just be PvP players killing other to enjoy PvP. I don't think there will be that many people out there just to ruin the progress of peoples master missions. (Though I am certain that there will be some people out to do just that). But as soon as someone who actually have no interest in PvP combat gets killed by a player, they will percieve that death as griefing. And when that happens, things have already gone too far. The damage has already been done.

I'll give you the benefit and say, "okay lets assume that kessel is constantly camped and players are waiting for us to jump in." At this point in your pilot progression you should have a fairly decent (probably tier 4) ship with at least level 6+ components. Assuming the "griefer" is master already that gives him the option of the firespray (which will be rare for a while) or the large multi-person ships (not a fighter) so chances are he won't havea better ship than you.

There's also the B-wing and the TIE-oppressor in the master skill box. Though not many people will use the B-wing for PvP.

Now again assuming he's master he could have level 9 and 10 components so yeah he could have some better equipment, BUT not enough of an edge that a good pilot couldn't hold his own 1-on-1. The problem arises if a group of "griefers" were to gang up on one player, but if that were to happen to me I'd repair and get my buddies to come up with me on the next trip.

But if your were doing your master missions and had to repair due to player vs player combat, your mission is already ruined. That's a big problem here. I don't think a lot of people will just think: "You know, getting killed when I had 5 TIE's left to go was fun, especially after my 2 hour long mission. I think I'll start all over again at 30 TIEs and bring some friends this time"

But honestly, I don't think you'll see kessel camped all the time.

Well, look at it this way: The longer time passes, the more people will master and get up to 4-4-4-4. The population in Kessel can really only rise, not get lower. While you might be able to enter a mostly-empty Kessel today, that will not be the case after a few more weeks or months. Especially since people won't go to Deep Space for their PVP needs.

I think as more people get master you'll find enough PvP up there between masters to keep them off the backs of the "newbies". I think also that you have too keep in mind that this is a twitch game and that not all players posses the same potential for flight and some will NOT get master pilot. I don't see that as a bad thing. Am I being un-reasonable to think that everyone who earns the master title should have to prove they can fly as well as me to get it? I think to be a fighter ace you should be tested against other players. Just seems like a morerealistic (and more challenging) game element.

You are being slightly un-reasonable, yes. Not because you think that a master must be a good pilot, but because you think that they need to be tested against another player. There is nothing really logical about this, especially not in agame where the PvE population is this big. Had this been planetside, yes then it had been a good idea, but not in SWG.

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FalinMor wrote:

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fav wrote:

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FalinMor wrote:

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fav wrote:

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Bloodshead wrote:

It pains me to think there are others out there workign hard to make sure that someone doesnt make master pilot by greifing ppl doing missions in Kessel. Devs take the mission to an instanced zone in Kessel at the least! The damage players can do is insane. Its either time for a pvp damage nerf or move the master mission away from Kessel as far as lightspeed can take it

And for all you greifing n00blets that feel more l33t because they can totally gate someone from the mission. Flame away

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The game is one flippin' week old. Stop talking about nerfs already! Have you even ENCOUNTERED this problem yet? You're only predicting this problem and no one knows for sure that it will even exist. Let's not make up problems before they materialize, k?

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And exactly how would this be a "nerf" again?

And this problem already materialized in beta, AND it has already materialized in Live. It will only get worse.

Early in a game's lifecycle is when it's easiest and best to make much-needed changes. What, you think we should wait for the problem to escalate before we start talking about it? That makes no sense.

Falin

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Well its been debated in the beta and the devs kept it in for live so I think its safe to say they've heard both sides of this already. Though I don't think griefing is going to be as big a problem as most people make it out to be, I'll give you the benefit and say, "okay lets assume that kessel is constantly camped and players are waiting for us to jump in." At this point in your pilot progression you should have a fairly decent (probably tier 4) ship with at least level 6+ components. Assuming the "griefer" is master already that gives him the option of the firespray (which will be rare for a while) or the large multi-person ships (not a fighter) so chances are he won't havea better ship than you. Now again assuming he's master he could have level 9 and 10 components so yeah he could have some better equipment, BUT not enough of an edge that a good pilot couldn't hold his own 1-on-1. The problem arises if a group of "griefers" were to gang up on one player, but if that were to happen to me I'd repair and get my buddies to come up with me on the next trip. But honestly, I don't think you'll see kessel camped all the time. I think as more people get master you'll find enough PvP up there between masters to keep them off the backs of the "newbies". I think also that you have too keep in mind that this is a twitch game and that not all players posses the same potential for flight and some will NOT get master pilot. I don't see that as a bad thing. Am I being un-reasonable to think that everyone who earns the master title should have to prove they can fly as well as me to get it? I think to be a fighter ace you should be tested against other players. Just seems like a morerealistic (and more challenging) game element.

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It ALREADY IS a problem, and it will get worse.

Have you actually done any of the Ace missions yet? They're already brutally difficult, even without worrying about getting your mission ruined by getting hit ONCE by another player. Yes, that's all it takes. One shot from another player, and your mission is likely ruined. One hit from another player, and you might as well pack it up and go home, cause your armor is most likely gone and some systems are damaged... if it didn't kill you outright. One hit. One player can send you and one or two of your groupmates home pretty consistently... and they'll more than likely have friends with them as well. I play on one of the better behaved servers in the game, and we have whole PAs that are pure griefers that are already doing this in groups in Kessel... and it's only going to get worse unless something is done about it.

These missions wouldremain brutally difficult if you took the PvP out of it. Heck, I'd be all for making them even MORE difficult if it gets them out of the PvP sector. As they are, even with no PvP, they still require large groups in order to succeed. There is NO GOOD REASON to keep them in Kessel, at all... and I'm sure if the devs haven't seen this already, they will in time. Sometimes it takes time for them to see and react to problems.

Falin

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fav wrote:

I see the title of master pilot as being the ultimate badge of flight mastery and I don't think being able to blow AI (haha) npcs out of the sky is really a true test of flight skill. PvP makes sense in that it gives pilots a challenge and if you really want the rewards of master pilot you should have to struggle for it.

But a challenge can be done through PvE just as well as PvP. There is not really anything good that can come out of the current setup, trust me on this. I did both missions on the beta server, and even though the population in Kessel was at average around 2, I STILL got my mission progress destroyed through getting attacked. It's just going toget worse and worse.Now personally, I like to PvP in space but I don't see any need to force my viewpoint on to strictly PvE players(In fact, I am defending them here, so...). If a strictly PvEer faces the same thing I did (with a big ugly red mission failed text) they are just going to get more turned off from PvP. What's the purpose of this?

I like to compare these missions to the hologrind, both had the knack of "forcing" people to do something they had no interest in, and both are rather destructive for the overall good of the game.

I know some people disagree, but this expansion was really meant to be different from the ground game. To me, everyone flying around in a firespray, B-wing or TIE Opressor isn't my idea of a "different" experience. It reminds mea lot of all the jedi or TKMs who run around on the ground. I think making it hard (or near impossible) for some people to get master pilot will create a much-needed seperation in this game. No its not an elitist view. But I think having everyone in the same ships fighting the same battles is boring and doesn't reflect a truely diverse galaxy.

But it is an elitist view in the way that you would like to stop people from accessing parts of the content due to the fact that they have no interest in a playstyle you like. That if anything is rather elitist. If the goal was to slow down progress and make things hard/nearly impossible, it would have worked just as well without any PvP at all.

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Vicotnik wrote:

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fav wrote:

Well its been debated in the beta and the devs kept it in for live so I think its safe to say they've heard both sides of this already. Though I don't think griefing is going to be as big a problem as most people make it out to be,

The problem is that it's not really griefing for the most part. Most kills in Kessel will just be PvP players killing other to enjoy PvP. I don't think there will be that many people out there just to ruin the progress of peoples master missions. (Though I am certain that there will be some people out to do just that). But as soon as someone who actually have no interest in PvP combat gets killed by a player, they will percieve that death as griefing. And when that happens, things have already gone too far. The damage has already been done.

I'll give you the benefit and say, "okay lets assume that kessel is constantly camped and players are waiting for us to jump in." At this point in your pilot progression you should have a fairly decent (probably tier 4) ship with at least level 6+ components. Assuming the "griefer" is master already that gives him the option of the firespray (which will be rare for a while) or the large multi-person ships (not a fighter) so chances are he won't havea better ship than you.

There's also the B-wing and the TIE-oppressor in the master skill box. Though not many people will use the B-wing for PvP.

Now again assuming he's master he could have level 9 and 10 components so yeah he could have some better equipment, BUT not enough of an edge that a good pilot couldn't hold his own 1-on-1. The problem arises if a group of "griefers" were to gang up on one player, but if that were to happen to me I'd repair and get my buddies to come up with me on the next trip.

But if your were doing your master missions and had to repair due to player vs player combat, your mission is already ruined. That's a big problem here. I don't think a lot of people will just think: "You know, getting killed when I had 5 TIE's left to go was fun, especially after my 2 hour long mission. I think I'll start all over again at 30 TIEs and bring some friends this time"

But honestly, I don't think you'll see kessel camped all the time.

Well, look at it this way: The longer time passes, the more people will master and get up to 4-4-4-4. The population in Kessel can really only rise, not get lower. While you might be able to enter a mostly-empty Kessel today, that will not be the case after a few more weeks or months. Especially since people won't go to Deep Space for their PVP needs.

I think as more people get master you'll find enough PvP up there between masters to keep them off the backs of the "newbies". I think also that you have too keep in mind that this is a twitch game and that not all players posses the same potential for flight and some will NOT get master pilot. I don't see that as a bad thing. Am I being un-reasonable to think that everyone who earns the master title should have to prove they can fly as well as me to get it? I think to be a fighter ace you should be tested against other players. Just seems like a morerealistic (and more challenging) game element.

You are being slightly un-reasonable, yes. Not because you think that a master must be a good pilot, but because you think that they need to be tested against another player. There is nothing really logical about this, especially not in agame where the PvE population is this big. Had this been planetside, yes then it had been a good idea, but not in SWG.

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Your comments were all well-thought and I can accept your point of view there. Thanks for being polite about it. The only thing that I will call you on is the last statement. I think PvP is the very essence of this expansion. I think PvE combat is just "the grind" to get to the ultimate goal which is: real space combat with other living pilots. Like Han Solo said "Good against remotes; that's one thing... good against the living; that's something else."

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fav wrote:

Yes they are hard and I think we agree that'sa good thing. Being shot out of the sky doesn't really bother me. Repeatedly? Yeah that would get annoying, but I think of it this way: I only need to land one hit on them to turn the battle the other way.

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But even if you do land that one hit, there is nothing to stop them from just repairing their ship and returning to Kessel. You, on the other hand, are stuck in Kessel for a few more hours. Them getting hit and possibly destroyed could just mean to them that they had found a willing PvP target, so they would maybe home in on you for "revenge". Sooner or later, they would get you too.

No, I still say that these missions need to be moved or rethinked. Nothing good can ever come from them.

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Vicotnik wrote:

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fav wrote:

I see the title of master pilot as being the ultimate badge of flight mastery and I don't think being able to blow AI (haha) npcs out of the sky is really a true test of flight skill. PvP makes sense in that it gives pilots a challenge and if you really want the rewards of master pilot you should have to struggle for it.

But a challenge can be done through PvE just as well as PvP. There is not really anything good that can come out of the current setup, trust me on this. I did both missions on the beta server, and even though the population in Kessel was at average around 2, I STILL got my mission progress destroyed through getting attacked. It's just going toget worse and worse.Now personally, I like to PvP in space but I don't see any need to force my viewpoint on to strictly PvE players(In fact, I am defending them here, so...). If a strictly PvEer faces the same thing I did (with a big ugly red mission failed text) they are just going to get more turned off from PvP. What's the purpose of this?

I like to compare these missions to the hologrind, both had the knack of "forcing" people to do something they had no interest in, and both are rather destructive for the overall good of the game.

I know some people disagree, but this expansion was really meant to be different from the ground game. To me, everyone flying around in a firespray, B-wing or TIE Opressor isn't my idea of a "different" experience. It reminds mea lot of all the jedi or TKMs who run around on the ground. I think making it hard (or near impossible) for some people to get master pilot will create a much-needed seperation in this game. No its not an elitist view. But I think having everyone in the same ships fighting the same battles is boring and doesn't reflect a truely diverse galaxy.

But it is an elitist view in the way that you would like to stop people from accessing parts of the content due to the fact that they have no interest in a playstyle you like. That if anything is rather elitist. If the goal was to slow down progress and make things hard/nearly impossible, it would have worked just as well without any PvP at all.

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Oh no, I want to keep them from accessing parts of the content because they aren't AS GOOD as me. If you have to kill me to get the same title as me, I think that's fair.

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fav wrote:

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FalinMor wrote:

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fav wrote:

Well its been debated in the beta and the devs kept it in for live so I think its safe to say they've heard both sides of this already. Though I don't think griefing is going to be as big a problem as most people make it out to be, I'll give you the benefit and say, "okay lets assume that kessel is constantly camped and players are waiting for us to jump in." At this point in your pilot progression you should have a fairly decent (probably tier 4) ship with at least level 6+ components. Assuming the "griefer" is master already that gives him the option of the firespray (which will be rare for a while) or the large multi-person ships (not a fighter) so chances are he won't havea better ship than you. Now again assuming he's master he could have level 9 and 10 components so yeah he could have some better equipment, BUT not enough of an edge that a good pilot couldn't hold his own 1-on-1. The problem arises if a group of "griefers" were to gang up on one player, but if that were to happen to me I'd repair and get my buddies to come up with me on the next trip. But honestly, I don't think you'll see kessel camped all the time. I think as more people get master you'll find enough PvP up there between masters to keep them off the backs of the "newbies". I think also that you have too keep in mind that this is a twitch game and that not all players posses the same potential for flight and some will NOT get master pilot. I don't see that as a bad thing. Am I being un-reasonable to think that everyone who earns the master title should have to prove they can fly as well as me to get it? I think to be a fighter ace you should be tested against other players. Just seems like a morerealistic (and more challenging) game element.

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It ALREADY IS a problem, and it will get worse.

Have you actually done any of the Ace missions yet? They're already brutally difficult, even without worrying about getting your mission ruined by getting hit ONCE by another player. Yes, that's all it takes. One shot from another player, and your mission is likely ruined. One hit from another player, and you might as well pack it up and go home, cause your armor is most likely gone and some systems are damaged... if it didn't kill you outright. One hit. One player can send you and one or two of your groupmates home pretty consistently... and they'll more than likely have friends with them as well. I play on one of the better behaved servers in the game, and we have whole PAs that are pure griefers that are already doing this in groups in Kessel... and it's only going to get worse unless something is done about it.

These missions wouldremain brutally difficult if you took the PvP out of it. Heck, I'd be all for making them even MORE difficult if it gets them out of the PvP sector. As they are, even with no PvP, they still require large groups in order to succeed. There is NO GOOD REASON to keep them in Kessel, at all... and I'm sure if the devs haven't seen this already, they will in time. Sometimes it takes time for them to see and react to problems.

Falin

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Yes they are hard and I think we agree that'sa good thing. Being shot out of the sky doesn't really bother me. Repeatedly? Yeah that would get annoying, but I think of it this way: I only need to land one hit on them to turn the battle the other way. So how confident are you in your own piloting skills? That's really what this all comes down to I think. Someone above just made the point that PvP doesn't automatically mean "harder". I think this is true. If you're good, you're good and if you can take down a tier 5 ship with 30 hits why can't you take down a player ship with 1? I know I'm repeating myself a little here, but I just don't see this as being a big issue for the MAJORITY of players. There's a few ppl who really really feel strongly against PvP, but I don't think that's a significant segment of the player base.

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I'm confident in my piloting skills, absolutely... and I even enjoy PvP, both on the ground and in the air. I will do my master mission, regardless of where it is, and I will succeed it.

But that's not the point. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an MMORPG, and they're not the only person playing the game. I'm not thinking about myself in this, I'm thinking about that MAJORITY of the playerbase that HATES PvP combat. They need consideration in this, because like it or not, they're the backbone of this game.

I absolutely agree that PvP doesn't necessarily mean "challenge". That's the whole point. For you maybe, and definitely for me, it means challenge. For a whole ton of other people, it means trouble, annoyance, pointlessness, and not fun. So why should they be subjected to it? As I've said many times on this board, there is NO GOOD REASON to force people into an environment they hate. Mission difficulty can be accomplished without bringing other players into it, and that avenue MUST be explored first.

And your last statement is wrong. The people who don't like and don't want to participate in PvP have ALWAYS been a pretty solid majority in MMORPGs. They are in this game, they are in every other MMORPG that isn't full-time PvP as a rule. Look at UO, AC, EQ, AO, etc. etc. etc. The PvP population in those is very, very small.... and it's not an accident. Most people who play MMORPGs just don't like it. They play MMOs to interact with others socially and cooperatively... or they play them to play alone in a big persistent world. What most of them DON'T do is play them to fight against other players. That population is quite small. I'd love it to be bigger, it's true... but you don't accomplish that by forcing people into it. That just makes them resentful and further reinforces PvP as a negative experience for them. Simple human nature.

Falin

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fav wrote:

Your comments were all well-thought and I can accept your point of view there. Thanks for being polite about it. The only thing that I will call you on is the last statement. I think PvP is the very essence of this expansion. I think PvE combat is just "the grind" to get to the ultimate goal which is: real space combat with other living pilots. Like Han Solo said "Good against remotes; that's one thing... good against the living; that's something else."

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Yeah, but that's part of the big picture here: For us, the essence of the expansion might be PVP. For someone who actually hates PVP it's most certainly is not. For you and me, the goal might be real space combat with other living pilots, for someone else it might not be. Their goal might be to have fun with their friends in their brand new YT-1300.Either way, it's not an excuse to keep people away from the expansion due to their prefered playstyle. Everything would work much better if it was completely optional to PVP.

During beta I repeatedly argued for these missions to be optional content (with a proper reward) after you had mastered. The master missions would then be something attainable to everyone without PVP (Note: I never said that it should be easy). This would have done a couple of things, like fixing the problem with these missions and given us something to do after we have mastered (since the content is very lacking, which people will find out once they get closer and closer to their master box)

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fav wrote:

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Vicotnik wrote:

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fav wrote:

I see the title of master pilot as being the ultimate badge of flight mastery and I don't think being able to blow AI (haha) npcs out of the sky is really a true test of flight skill. PvP makes sense in that it gives pilots a challenge and if you really want the rewards of master pilot you should have to struggle for it.

But a challenge can be done through PvE just as well as PvP. There is not really anything good that can come out of the current setup, trust me on this. I did both missions on the beta server, and even though the population in Kessel was at average around 2, I STILL got my mission progress destroyed through getting attacked. It's just going toget worse and worse.Now personally, I like to PvP in space but I don't see any need to force my viewpoint on to strictly PvE players(In fact, I am defending them here, so...). If a strictly PvEer faces the same thing I did (with a big ugly red mission failed text) they are just going to get more turned off from PvP. What's the purpose of this?

I like to compare these missions to the hologrind, both had the knack of "forcing" people to do something they had no interest in, and both are rather destructive for the overall good of the game.

I know some people disagree, but this expansion was really meant to be different from the ground game. To me, everyone flying around in a firespray, B-wing or TIE Opressor isn't my idea of a "different" experience. It reminds mea lot of all the jedi or TKMs who run around on the ground. I think making it hard (or near impossible) for some people to get master pilot will create a much-needed seperation in this game. No its not an elitist view. But I think having everyone in the same ships fighting the same battles is boring and doesn't reflect a truely diverse galaxy.

But it is an elitist view in the way that you would like to stop people from accessing parts of the content due to the fact that they have no interest in a playstyle you like. That if anything is rather elitist. If the goal was to slow down progress and make things hard/nearly impossible, it would have worked just as well without any PvP at all.

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Oh no, I want to keep them from accessing parts of the content because they aren't AS GOOD as me. If you have to kill me to get the same title as me, I think that's fair.

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See, that's EXACTLY the attitude that makes so many people hate PvP and PvPers. True colors, shining through. Why should you be the judge of who is "worthy" of experiencing a bit of pretty cool content and who isn't? How exactly does it hurt you when you see another player with an Ace title?

Falin

I'm confident in my piloting skills, absolutely... and I even enjoy PvP, both on the ground and in the air. I will do my master mission, regardless of where it is, and I will succeed it.

But that's not the point. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an MMORPG, and they're not the only person playing the game. I'm not thinking about myself in this, I'm thinking about that MAJORITY of the playerbase that HATES PvP combat. They need consideration in this, because like it or not, they're the backbone of this game.

I absolutely agree that PvP doesn't necessarily mean "challenge". That's the whole point. For you maybe, and definitely for me, it means challenge. For a whole ton of other people, it means trouble, annoyance, pointlessness, and not fun. So why should they be subjected to it? As I've said many times on this board, there is NO GOOD REASON to force people into an environment they hate. Mission difficulty can be accomplished without bringing other players into it, and that avenue MUST be explored first.

And your last statement is wrong. The people who don't like and don't want to participate in PvP have ALWAYS been a pretty solid majority in MMORPGs. They are in this game, they are in every other MMORPG that isn't full-time PvP as a rule. Look at UO, AC, EQ, AO, etc. etc. etc. The PvP population in those is very, very small.... and it's not an accident. Most people who play MMORPGs just don't like it. They play MMOs to interact with others socially and cooperatively... or they play them to play alone in a big persistent world. What most of them DON'T do is play them to fight against other players. That population is quite small. I'd love it to be bigger, it's true... but you don't accomplish that by forcing people into it. That just makes them resentful and further reinforces PvP as a negative experience for them. Simple human nature.

Falin

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But it is an elitist view in the way that you would like to stop people from accessing parts of the content due to the fact that they have no interest in a playstyle you like. That if anything is rather elitist. If the goal was to slow down progress and make things hard/nearly impossible, it would have worked just as well without any PvP at all.

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Oh no, I want to keep them from accessing parts of the content because they aren't AS GOOD as me. If you have to kill me to get the same title as me, I think that's fair.

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See, that's EXACTLY the attitude that makes so many people hate PvP and PvPers. True colors, shining through. Why should you be the judge of who is "worthy" of experiencing a bit of pretty cool content and who isn't? How exactly does it hurt you when you see another player with an Ace title?

Falin

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Barco wrote:

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LowbaTherf wrote:

I really am not a griefer. The only grief I can remember causing another player is destroying a mission liar before I recognized that some liars were mission lairs for other characters, and my destroying one would ruin another player's mission. >< Sorry, I was a noob ><however I really support anything that makes it harder to advance while keeping it a posiibility. If that means you need squadron sized groups for the master mission, I am for it. The less Master Pilots there are, the more respectable it is to be a Master Pilot. And to all of you people who say it is unfair to force PvP on others, PvPers have to PvE to get to be Master Pilot. So they are being forced into a playstyle they do not support too. BTW, I know my argument is empty and facetious, but I believe it has the same validity as saying PvP is forced. (I am soooo getting one starred for this aren't I? Small price to pay for expressing my opinion.)

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Last time I checked Computers didn't care if they were blasted out of the sky while flying around in predetermined paths. Despite your disclaimer on your arguement, it is markedly less valid in that KILLING OTHER PLAYERS effects THEM, and prevents them from:

a. having fun, yes, but more importantly:

b. completing their mission fairly, I'm sure many of the griefers (not that you are one of them) didn't have to contend with two-shotdeaths when they were finishing their sprint to Master Pilot now did they, hmm?

So again, while it is true that PvP fans (of which I am one, in the ground game)do have to do some PvE'ing to advance, the fact remains that in doing so, they are not effecting someone else's experiance to the betterment of their own.

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