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Almightyrastus wrote:

I am not a fan of PvP at all, never have been, I can fully appreciate why people go in for it and why they love it so much and also why those people think that to have fun, everyone should love it the same way they do.

I am all up for PvP only zones in space (I am up for having the PvP battle fields reinstated on the ground game too), although I would never use them as that style does not interest me in the slightest.

But to have to enter a zone where anyone can attack you whether you are overt, covert, master, novice or whatever when you are trying to concentrate on completing a mission that is difficult enough on its own is not on.

I can only hope that people will see what others are up to and leave them be when they see that they are attacking the corvette but alas that is wishful thinking, I have seen too many childish PvP-ers on the ground to know that sense will prevail.

The developers themselves have said that PvP will not be an enforced aspect of the game so why must the dificulty of a certain mission be increased dramatically by having it placed in an area where people can force you into a confrontation whether you want it or not.

We should change our ship names when we get to that stage in the hope that people might read something like 'master mission' and leave us to it.

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And this is what I was talking about. Another classic closet case of someone who thinks mastering a profession shouldnt be difficult and everyone should be able to do it. Its opinions like this that have made the ground game retardedly easy and mundane.

Fighting real people is the most unpredictable and difficult task in game. A master pilot should have a track record of success against the most difficult tasks possible. Therefore a master pilot should have some experience fighting real people.

JTL isnt like the ground game. Its not all about dots and insane armor and insane buffs and legendary weapons. Its twitch. Its about actually honing a skill and doing your own dirty work. Its no different than fighting an npc in space except the challenge is much greater.

I'm obviously all for it. I wish there was a similar approach to the rest of the game to spice it up some. Funny though how people are complaining about something they havent even tried yet. Even if you dont like PVP on the ground game, this is different. You may like this, but you are too busy crying to level up and find out. Who wouldnt want the game to be more difficult? I dont understand why everyone is so negative.

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Vegitaa wrote:

Not that I disagree with your reasons for being against this.... actually forcing a player to jump through hoop X to get reward Y is what MMO's are all about. The main issue here is that people are concerned about having to fight real people as pilots.

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True, that is what MMO's are all about. However, that is no way any justification or reasons for actually alienating such a big part of the SWG subscribers. Let's face it: Had the challenge been a pure PVE challenge, you would not have alienated any PVPers, nor would you have alienated any PVEers. The PVPers would still have their zones for PVP and they could still go Overt.

There is just no way that things are better now, than they would be with another set ofmaster missions.

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BrotherDavius wrote:

So what your saying is that mission should be done on your own? They are trying to give players a reasonto fight each other, it would have been better if they had made faction ships perma-overt.

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Excuse me, but where is the reason to fight each other in this scenario?

All I see is that people are made targets for other people. There is actually NO incentive to actual fighting here. Those who are doing their missions are in fact better of if they don't meet any opposing people at all.

1. I dont like PvP, not in a game this big where I cant choose my enemies.


2. I dont enjoy being "pwned" or "pwning" people, it gives me no pleasure.


3. I do however enjoy a challange beyond my normal playfield, soI actually enjoy the challange to become a master. If I manage it, then I will have accomplished something beyond my normal scope of play and will have truly done something diffrent.

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Vikassi wrote:

This is too funny....I constantly hear about /waaaaah professions are tooooo easy to be mastered..../waaaaaaaaaaahhhh......PvP is dead................/waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.....

Well I guess SOE just changed that huh?

Theres always a complainer out there..................(too many in this thread)

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Yes, and you're one of them. You're complaining about complaints. How novel of you.

SOE didn't change it at all. PVP has still got no purpose, even less so in JTL. The missions would already be hard. The only thing SOE will accomplish is to kill PVP even more with these missions. Do you actually expect people to get more friendly to the idea of PVP after they have been ganked X times on their master mission?

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BrotherDavius wrote:

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FalinMor wrote:

It IS a dangerous place. The Master missions are already unsoloable as they currently are, even without being harassed by other players. The the manual and old loading screens on SWG also say that Dathomir and the Krayt graveyardare dangerous places, but I don't see any permanent PvP there, do you? Dangerous != PvP.

All I'm asking for is a good reason to do it. I doubt I'll ever get one.

Falin

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So what your saying is that mission should be done on your own? They are trying to give players a reasonto fight each other, it would have been better if they had made faction ships perma-overt.

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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that you can't give "well the devs said space is dangerous" as a reason why to force PvP on people, because it can be dangerous without that. It already is, because those missions are already impossible to solo even without getting other players shooting at you.

I have no problem with things being hard at all. I like a challenge (and personally enjoy PvP myself). Making things harder by forcing people to PvP is the wrong way to do it, because you're alienating a significant portion of the playerbase by doing it, and there is NO tangible benefit.

Falin

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Faraed wrote:

It was done this way so that all the cry baby sissies would have something to complain about. I mean seriously, what would you people do with all of your extra free time if you didnt have something to whine about?

Think of it as a challenge. Stop being so negative all the time. You wanna be a master pilot? Then prove that you are worthy of such a title.

This is the type of approach they should have taken with the entire game. People who are familiar with MMO's have complained since day 1 that this game is entirely too easy and they are right. The game is too easy and this (combined with the FRS system for jedi) is the first sign that the devs are finally focusing their attention on changing that.

Its a good thing to have challenges in video games. Thats what keeps you interested. Otherwise the game becomes the same thing it has been up until now, a boring and mindless grind with no feeling of achievement at the end.

If you actually take the time to read the underlying message in this post, and dont get all hung up on the fact that I called youpeople cry baby sissies, then you will find the "REASON" you are looking for.

Message Edited by Faraed on 10-28-2004 11:52 AM

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You completely missed the point. I personally do see it as a challenge, and I will do the missions the way they are. I like PvP just fine.

But people like you and me need to realize that WE ARE THE MINORITY. Most peopleDON'T LIKE PvP, and resent being forced into it. You can't say "to make it harder" is a valid reason to force a bunch of people to do something they hate, because there are other ways to make things harder.

Is it "whining" or "crying" when you complain that you're being forced to do something you don't like for no good reason? No. It's valid complaint.

The mistake that you and many others are consistently making is that you're applying your own personal opinions about what's fun and not fun on everyone else. That's simply not valid. To you, PvP is fun and a challenge. To me, it's fun and a challenge. To many, many other people, it's something they hate and want to avoid, and something that will RUIN their fun.

What makes you so special that your idea of fun is so much more valid than theirs that you get to enforce yours and take theirs away? They're not trying to force you out of PvP, so why are you trying to force them into it?

Falin

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Almightyrastus wrote:

but I do not like fighting other players, it is nothing to do with liking an easy life or not being up for the challenge or not being able to take losing to them at all, I just want to do things my way and not be forced into a style of play I do not like just to complete something.

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THen maybe you should consider that there are 2 levels to the pilot profession. PVE people achieve their master at a certain level and PVP people achieve their mastery at a higher level. Which in any case is true because a person who is skilled and experienced in PVP can be considered a TRUE master pilot. This is a good reward for those people who do get involved in pvp, they are allowed to reach a higher level than the people who do not. Lets not forget the focal point of this game is supposed to be PVP. Thats why the game is called "An Empire Divided."

But while I am on the subject of your quote. Im curious. You say you dont like fighting other players. But you state it isnt because you arent up for the challenge or that you cant take losing to them. So honestly, if thats the case, then why dont you enjoy fighting other players? Why the general negative attitude about PVP? The only difference is the higher level of challenge and unpredictability, but you say you are up for a higher challenge. So whats the problem?

Sounds to me like you are admitting to not being able to handle the challenge should it come up in battle. You are afraid that you are gonna be doing a mission and someone is going to kill you. So wouldnt that fall into the category of you not being up for the challenge and being afraid of losing to them? What would be the big deal anyway? Have you seen the master level missions? They cannot be solo'd, you are gonna need a group. That group can also help you to kill attackers.

I cant stand people complaining about systems they havent even tried out yet. Thats why the developers have no sense of direction for this game. Every time they make something new, people complain and they change it. Just give it a shot first, you might like it.

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Vicotnik wrote:

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BrotherDavius wrote:

So what your saying is that mission should be done on your own? They are trying to give players a reasonto fight each other, it would have been better if they had made faction ships perma-overt.

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Excuse me, but where is the reason to fight each other in this scenario?

All I see is that people are made targets for other people. There is actually NO incentive to actual fighting here. Those who are doing their missions are in fact better of if they don't meet any opposing people at all.

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Bingo. The current implementation only benefits those who enjoy killing other people.... and other unwilling and unexperienced people to boot. It encourages grief play, period. There's simply no way to argue against this statement without basing that argument on selfishness.

Falin

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Vicotnik wrote:

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LowbaTherf wrote:

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Vicotnik wrote:

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LowbaTherf wrote:

may I ask you a question? Why should the developers not be able to put restrictions on a master level profession? Becoming a master level pilot means you get to fly special ships and get special skills. It is not forced onto players, it is a choice just like Jedi. If you do not want to PvP, you don't get the special ships.

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It's not a choice. If it were, the statement should read:

"Either you PVP, or you'll live with an expansion with absolutely no content".

... Because there is no actual content, save the multipassenger ships and the content that wewill supposedly be able to unlock with prestige points. (Yes, I know prestige points currently only unlocks a PVP area) If a pilot stays at 4-4-4-4, he will have a rather useless expansion on his hands.

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and a useful ground game. If you don't want to fight other players, you don't need to waste money on the expansion pack. And when/if they add PvE space content, then you can go out and buy the expansion pack. It all boils down to the fact that you have a choice in all of this. The Developers are not forcing PvP.

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But it's NOT a choice. You can't just stop at 4-4-4-4 and say: "Ok, I think I'm not going to master." Had it been written in big, bold text on the box of the game that "To enjoy this expansion fully, you will need to participate in PVP" then it would have been true.

The way it is now, to enjoy the core of the expansion (Space and the pilot professions), you have to PVP. This is similar to if all the ground professions would need PVP to be enjoyed fully too. It's as if the ground dungeons and such required you to do two rather painful PVE quests while Overt, and in an area mostly populated by other overts.

And yet, the original question still remains: Why? Can someone please point out one good reason for these missions instead of just repeating what other people have already said a hundred times?

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Faraed wrote:

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Almightyrastus wrote:

but I do not like fighting other players, it is nothing to do with liking an easy life or not being up for the challenge or not being able to take losing to them at all, I just want to do things my way and not be forced into a style of play I do not like just to complete something.

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Why the general negative attitude about PVP? The only difference is the higher level of challenge and unpredictability, but you say you are up for a higher challenge. So whats the problem?

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Actually, I can answer this one. Well, not speaking for him specifically, but speaking toward the general anti-PvP attitude in MMORPGs.

What's the first mainstream MMORPG that was out? Ultima Online.

Ultima Online had unfettered, full-time PvP. It forstered a griefing environment and cause a HUGE divide between those who liked PvP and those who didn't. They HATED each other, because those who didn't want to PvP were constantly subjected to the whim of those who did. That attitude is still prevalent in MMORPGs today, and frankly there are enough idiot griefers on the PvP side of things that I'm not at all surprised the old attitude still prevails.

In other words, you have forced PvP to blame for that attitude. As I said before, when you force someone to do something they don't like, they get resentful. It just snowballs from there.

Falin

Message Edited by FalinMor on 10-28-2004 12:53 PM