Jump To Lightspeed Archive

---

FalinMor wrote:

---

Faraed wrote:

---

Vicotnik wrote:

---

atytula wrote:

I am not in the position that people that don't want to PvP shouldn't have to. But I am for providing additional content to PvPers and to make an incentive to PvP. I am guessing that those that want master pilot missions in PvP zones are looking at it from this point. If you are a master pilot, then you have beaten the hardest foes, and this is a human player.

Now, I don't want to see Master Pilot being limited in this fashion, but I wouldn't mind if they had a separate pilot profession that gives you additional perks but be based on PvP rating. Kind of like a faction system, but you have to PvP to get it. This would not force people to PvP but encourage them. But then again, people will look at it as forcing them to PvP since they would be forced to PvP to get the perks. But then, I could say I am being forced to grind to get Jedi.

---

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with rewarding people for PVP. It is, however, wrong to make the core of the expansion require people to PVP to progress. It would not have been wrong if the JTL expansion had been promoted as a PVP expansion, however.

---

Vicotnik, you are missing his point. It doesnt matter, people are going to complain anyway. Its never going to end, its a vicious circle.

NO matter what you give the PVP'ers to reward them, the non-pvpers are going to complain. They are going to claim that they are being forced into pvp to get whatever perk they give the pvp'ers. Its a never ending cycle. Thats why you have to draw the line somewhere and tell the non-pvpers just to shut up and live with it. Because if you dont, they are just going to find the next thing to complain about when the PVP'ers are rewarded elsewhere.

If you make the pvpers stronger than the non-pvp'ers by rewarding them in any fashion, the non-pvp'ers are going to be mad and claim it isnt fair because they pay $15 a month too, and so on and so forth. Ive been watching it happen for over a year now in one form or another. AT some point you just gotta say no and people gotta realise that not everything is going to be fair and if they want certain perks or rewards, they gotta sacrifice to get em.

---

And I already asked you, why do you feel the need to be rewarded at all? I thought that PvP was all about the challenge and risk of going against other players, and that without PvP everything gets boring. Isn't that in itself the reward for being a PvPer? Seems to me that that's been a central theme in your posts in this thread. Why do you feel that you deserve something more than someone who likes to play differently than you?

Falin

---

---

FalinMor wrote:

---

Faraed wrote:

Im not missing any of your points, they just dont hold any water. Your points are all based on opinion.

Like I said in my original posts. THis might not be the best challenge and reward system in the world, but atleast its a step in the right direction. ATleast its a sign that they are looking to add some diversity to this game.

---

Put/kettle/black. Your entire stance on this issue revolves around the fact that YOU find something fun/challenging and think everyone else should find it fun/challenging too.

And anyone with any grasp of both gaming and real-world history knows that FORCING diversity is about the worst thing you can do, and only ends in conflict.

Falin

Message Edited by FalinMor on 10-28-2004 02:12 PM

---

---

Faraed wrote:

---

FalinMor wrote:

And I already asked you, why do you feel the need to be rewarded at all? I thought that PvP was all about the challenge and risk of going against other players, and that without PvP everything gets boring. Isn't that in itself the reward for being a PvPer? Seems to me that that's been a central theme in your posts in this thread. Why do you feel that you deserve something more than someone who likes to play differently than you?

Falin

---

Falin, because so much of this game is centered around PVP that it is important to have a healthy pvp environment. Why do you think theres lackof content? Because PVP was supposed to be the content in this game. You always hear devs and csr's hyping up player created content. What do you think that player created content is? It aint easter egg hunts and weddings, its pvp. Unfortunately the system fell on its face because the developers had a lack of direction when designing things, overpowered the players, never finished a scoring system that was supposed to be implemented, and implemented poor rewards.

So now, the game vital PVP system that was supposed to exist, doesnt. And it isnt going to ever again until some changes are made.

If you think this game is going to succeed without pvp, you are sadly mistaken. Its too central in the design. Without it, there just isnt much else to do because the devs were counting on it succeeding, and it hasnt. It did for a long while, but patch after patch after patch it got worse. Now its completely dead on most servers and the only thing keeping hope alive is the proverbial carrot dangling in front of players faces that we will eventually see a combat, GCW and professions revamp.

Take a look at JTL, and take a look at the ground game and tell me. HOw much space content outside of PVP do you actually think is ever going to exist once you reach master? Considering all of the promised work they have scheduled for the ground game with the combat, gcw and professions revamps, outside of pvp, there isnt going to be much going on in space for master pilots.

---

See, this is the thing. I don't disagree with you that a healthy PvP environment is very important. The problem is, forcing the unwilling to participate in PvP does NOT foster a healthy PvP environment. It does the opposite. Look at the Ultima Online fiasco. That PvP environment was anything but healthy. It was completely out of hand, and ended up driving countless players away from the game.

Falin

---

Faraed wrote:

---

FalinMor wrote:

Put/kettle/black. Your entire stance on this issue revolves around the fact that YOU find something fun/challenging and think everyone else should find it fun/challenging too.

And anyone with any grasp of both gaming and real-world history knows that FORCING diversity is about the worst thing you can do, and only ends in conflict.

Falin

Message Edited by FalinMor on 10-28-2004 02:12 PM

---

This is the most ignorant statement you have ever made. I dont know where you live but im an american. And this country was founded on diversity. Cultural, political, economical and religous diversity.

You just nullified any argument you could ever make with that statement.

---

Yes, it was. It was founded on ENCOURAGING diversity, NOT forcing it. Forcing causes conflict and resentment.

Besides, forcing PvP isn't about diversity at all. It's about forcing others to conform to your style of play.

And I have to say I take serious offense at you saying that's the most ignorant statement I've ever made. I'm made TONS of ignorant statements in my life, and you can't take that away from me!!!

Falin

---

Faraed wrote:

Falin, because so much of this game is centered around PVP that it is important to have a healthy pvp environment. Why do you think theres lackof content? Because PVP was supposed to be the content in this game. You always hear devs and csr's hyping up player created content. What do you think that player created content is? It aint easter egg hunts and weddings, its pvp.

Easter egg hunts and weddings are both examples of player created content. Not all player created content is about PVP.

Unfortunately the system fell on its face because the developers had a lack of direction when designing things, overpowered the players, never finished a scoring system that was supposed to be implemented, and implemented poor rewards.

So now, the game vital PVP system that was supposed to exist, doesnt. And it isnt going to ever again until some changes are made.

If you think this game is going to succeed without pvp, you are sadly mistaken. Its too central in the design. Without it, there just isnt much else to do because the devs were counting on it succeeding, and it hasnt.

Then explain to us, in your divine wisdom, why there is a substancial number of PVE players still playing the game? Why are they still here?

It did for a long while, but patch after patch after patch it got worse. Now its completely dead on most servers and the only thing keeping hope alive is the proverbial carrot dangling in front of players faces that we will eventually see a combat, GCW and professions revamp.

Take a look at JTL, and take a look at the ground game and tell me. HOw much space content outside of PVP do you actually think is ever going to exist once you reach master?

That is most certainly not the problem of the players, that is the problem of the developers. It's their job to make sure their own game has longevity. If they don't, they shouldn't expect to have long time subscribers. To completely leave this up to the players would be one of the craziest buisness ideas in a long time.

Don't expect a lasting PVP community in space either, there is just not enough reward for the risk in space. In fact, PVP in space will end up being one of the biggest money sinks in the game, since both ship chassis and components decay.

Considering all of the promised work they have scheduled for the ground game with the combat, gcw and professions revamps, outside of pvp, there isnt going to be much going on in space for master pilots.

Oh, we know that. It's not our problem though. We didn't make them release both the game and the expansion too soon.

---

---

FalinMor wrote:

I'm not sure why you even got involved in it in the first place.


Cause it's a topic that interests me.....that's why.

I'm pretty sure you and I agree, but I wasn't talking about existing dynamics. The fact that undesirable dynamics already exist is not a good reason to implement them elsewhere.


That's sorta my point, man. If you're not careful, you'll start making my point for me.

If the game's too easy (especially at the high end), we'll get the same situation we have now on the ground.

That's a pretty good reason (to me) to leave the Master / PvP zone in place.

Otherwise...

We might as well start in on why Jedi need to face the possibility of PvP. It's the same issue (even if one chooses not to see that).

---

---

KzinKiller wrote:
It's a design choice. They actually made a choice here, instead of trying to be all things to all people. How I wish they'd done that more often in this project .... half the problems in the game are the result of trying to be a little bit of every kind of game (and doing it badly) instead of following a consistent design philosophy and doing it really well.

---

It's not consistent design philosophy. Had it been that, PVP would have been required for all missions.

---

GotEgg wrote:

---

yahweh666 wrote:

---

Vikassi wrote:

Cause its fun dude....Stop playing against AI all the time and play against the real thing.....If you dont like it stay on the ground and go perform genocide on your durni's!

Have some fun once in awhile.........

Message Edited by Vikassi on 10-28-2004 10:16 AM

---

Yet another brain dead PVP nut, that thinks in order for me to have fun in a game I have to PVP.
Maybe for me to have fun, I dont have to have PVP? ever think of that.
Oh never mind I forgot people like you cant think.

---

This is exactly the type of post he was talking about - You do NOT present a good point on why the forced PVP is bad, all you do is flame the people who dont think it's bad.

I myself do not pvp on the ground, and rarely PVP'd in space during beta (only to help test out kessel), but i am all for the final mission being in the PVP zones. The mission is a PVE mission, it just happens to be in a VERY DANGEROUS zone... What makes it dangerous? The fact that the objects attacking you are actually reactive, and can think. This is something that a machine can't do nearly as well as a human, and the reason that these missions were put where they are. The NPC AI can only get so hard before it caps out, a player however can constantly keep getting harder and harder to beat as they practice.

Having the final mission(s) in the PVP zone was a move to prove that space is a dangerous place, if you can't handle being in a dangerous place, you are not qualified to be recognized as an Ace Pilot.

---

---

Banshe wrote:

Well felinae posted this in her thread and its in my manual as well, didnt get to go home and test it, but according to the instruction manual that came with the game, the master missions are not in Kessel any more...

page 23: section Gaining Prestige Points

Once you have MASTERED YOUR CHOSEN PROFESSION (meaning that you have all of the skill boxes associated with the profession) you will start earning prestige points. There are Rebel, Imperial and Privateer Prestige points.

These Prestige Points can be exchanged to access high-end player-versus-player areas, including the unknown regions of Deep Space and the spice mine system of KESSEL.

someone go try to enter Kessel without master lol, I am stuck at work for another 3 and a half hours so I cant.

---

The manual is most likely outdated. MMO manuals often are.

Example: the "An Empire Divided" manual states that artisan gets their XP through their wares being actually used. It states that the Combat Medic is a healer with some field training to increase his odds of survival. It also states a whole lot about battlefields, and we haven't even got those anymore.

If I do remember it correctly, before we had the PVP weekend in Beta, it actually cost prestige points to enter Kessel. After it was changed.

---

FalinMor wrote:

No, that's not true. The Master missions are still in Kessel... you just can't up and Hyperspace there any time you want until you get Master. You still have to go there for the missions, you just get there a different way.

Falin

---